Video Poker Cheats
Finding a Video Poker Bug Made These Guys Rich—Then Vegas Made Them Pay
The judge did.Quote: WizardI wouldn't call what they did cheating in the legal sense.
"The old gambling buddies had one more game to play together. It was the Prisoner's Dilemma. Without speaking, they both arrived at the optimal strategy: They refused the offer. A few months later, the Justice Department dropped the last of the charges, and they were free."
"He claims he always intended to pay Kane his cut from the secret jackpots. Now he can't. His roommate, Laverde, signed over Nestor's money in exchange for avoiding a trial of his own. (There are no court filings to suggest that Kane's winnings were seized.)"
http://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/
It sounds to me more like the case was eventually tossed but someone who did not own the money signed it over to avoid trial. Another government seizure scam!!!
All those W2G's that were issued says Nestor has won lots of money. But the article claims all of the winnings were confiscated and given back to the casino. But the article also claims that Nestor says no paperwork was ever filed on the returned money. Can't get much uglier than this...
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/17079-a-team-scams-the-meadows-out-of-500-000/
Quote: RaleighCrapsNestor's IRS situation will continue to be a problem.
All those W2G's that were issued says Nestor has won lots of money. But the article claims all of the winnings were confiscated and given back to the casino. But the article also claims that Nestor says no paperwork was ever filed on the returned money. Can't get much uglier than this...
A lot of this also happened at the Meadows. I know at least 3 people involved. I also know that there were other patsies that were never caught so there is plenty of money that they got away with even if they returned the money.
I have always had a question regarding returned money that maybe someone like the Wizard or someone in the know can answer.
In PA there is a law that says they have to pay out a minimum of 85%. Whenever someone like this hits a casino their payout is going to end up WAY higher than it should. If the casino sees that their numbers are way up on the money can they adjust their machines to meet whatever they want their payback to be? If they are able to do this, if the money is returned does it come off of their payback numbers?
A fine story. It reminds me of one of Mission's gambling "fan fictions." Whatever happened to those, anyway?
Quote: teddysThe news has been out for a while, but this is the first article to go in-depth with the players' backgrounds, etc.
A fine story. It reminds me of one of Mission's gambling "fan fictions." Whatever happened to those, anyway?
Read the whole article. Excellent and fun read.
Thanks.
Seems greed got the better of these guys.
You discover a flaw like this, you milk it slowly and dont attract attention by gettiing greedy.
You take a small profit and move on to the next casino. Dont hit the same machine over and over in 1 session.
Hit once and leave.
Quote: FleaStiffThe judge did.
Name anything gambling-related that they were convicted for.
Quote: GWAEIn PA there is a law that says they have to pay out a minimum of 85%. Whenever someone like this hits a casino their payout is going to end up WAY higher than it should. If the casino sees that their numbers are way up on the money can they adjust their machines to meet whatever they want their payback to be? If they are able to do this, if the money is returned does it come off of their payback numbers?
No, the 85% number is a theoretical amount. It doesn't matter what the actual winnings and losses are.
Quote: WizardName anything gambling-related that they were convicted for.
I must agree with the Wizard. I read the article on Yahoo and almost posted a link to this yesterday until I found an older thread from I think August that posted about it. One of the guys money was seized, but he was ultimately found not guilty. The article then said the other guy (Nester I believe) never had his money taken and didn't have to pay it back. Thus, I don't believe they were convicted of anything illegal.
I also don't like how it's called "cheating." It's not cheating to play by the rules you're given. If the casino makes a mistake, that's not your fault.
(other thread here)
Quote: RomesI also don't like how it's called "cheating." It's not cheating to play by the rules you're given. If the casino makes a mistake, that's not your fault.
Legally it may not be cheating but man it sure does feel like stealing, doesn't it?
In this day and age a smart player would pull just $5-10K per week and spread it out AND be sure no hand-pays and no W2-G. If yoi have to, clean it up by running it through the sports book and craps tables. While you could not do it then, put the winnings in Bitcoin, become a virtual citizen of Estonia and deposit some there. Rent a storage unit for $600 a year in a corporate name. Don't keep the cash at home or in one place. And live small and smart.
A storage facility here suddenly had high electric bills. Seems guys working on oil rigs were living in storage units. And plugging electric heaters into light sockets. I mean get off work, get drunk, crash in a heated unit. AH, the good life !
Quote: Buzzard" Rent a storage unit for $600 a year in a corporate name. Don't keep the cash at home or in one place. And live small and smart. "
A storage facility here suddenly had high electric bills. Seems guys working on oil rigs were living in storage units. And plugging electric heaters into light sockets. I mean get off work, get drunk, crash in a heated unit. AH, the good life !
NICE! Love those roustabouts. I remember once wondering if you were on the border of being homeless would that be an option. My assistant manager said on some TV show a character lived in one.
Quote: bigfoot66Legally it may not be cheating but man it sure does feel like stealing, doesn't it?
Well, "legally" it's not cheating, but don't you want to call him a cheater??? lol, no. It's not cheating. He didn't cheat; even a court found that to be the verdict.
Quote: DRichNo, the 85% number is a theoretical amount. It doesn't matter what the actual winnings and losses are.
That makes sense. I remember hearing that back in the day west Virginia casinos had lower than legal machines because it was more profitable for them to pay the fine instead of increasing the machines. I always assumed it was the actual returns and not just what it was set for. Not sure if it was true about WV or just a story.
Finding a Video Poker Bug Made These Guys Rich—Then Vegas Made Them Pay
Quote: WiredAt 12:34 pm, the Game King lit up with its seventh jackpot in an hour and a half, a $10,400 payout. Now Williams knew something was wrong: The cards dealt on the screen were the exact same...
Er duh, a problem? After raping it more than half a dozen times at the rate 13 minutes per "jackpot" hand? D'ya think?
In spite of the picture carried in the imagination of a lot of blinkered tourists on boards like this, there are over 60 major casinos (those with the highest category of an "unrestricted" full gaming license with a full casino including pit table games) all around the Las Vegas Valley, and something like a few hundred lesser slot parlor grind places substantial enough to have a large number and variety of whatever are the recently popular flavors of idiotmonkey machines, and those "Game King" devices are more common in them than VP jockey guests who regularly use showers and toothbrushes and can stay sober 'till noon. They could easily choose to "get lucky" daily in them without having to return to the same joint more than twice a year. Or they could've in theory, if they weren't degenerate numbskulls who just need to keep humping those machines 'till their fingers bleed. I think any kind of windfall of money in their hands was utterly pointless, and doomed to be temporary no matter what.
I wonder what gambling forums they may have been or might still be popular members of, dispensing advice on the clever intricacies of being an "advantage player?"
Quote: GWAEThat makes sense. I remember hearing that back in the day west Virginia casinos had lower than legal machines because it was more profitable for them to pay the fine instead of increasing the machines. I always assumed it was the actual returns and not just what it was set for. Not sure if it was true about WV or just a story.
Easy to believe they took the chance, harder to believe it would have happened over and over. If you get fined for the same thing methinks both the fine escalates and at some point the gaming license in in jeopardy.
Quote: RomesWell, "legally" it's not cheating, but don't you want to call him a cheater??? lol, no. It's not cheating. He didn't cheat; even a court found that to be the verdict.
I am not disputing the legal definition of cheating. There are plenty of things that are not legally cheating but may well be morally cheating. For example, if you went to your buddies house for a home poker game and found out later that another player had used edge sorting against you and won a lot of money would you feel cheated or would you feel like you had been outclassed by a superior player in a fair competition? Does it depend on who provided the cards? I agree that he should not be prosecuted but we ought not pretend that this is completely black and white ethically. It exists in that great murky moral grey area between right and wrong.
This particular case is a lot clearer and it is basically stealing. Again, I don't think they should be prosecuted as such, but morally it is pretty clear. If you owned a machine like this in your living room and let your friends play against you for small stakes and you found out they had exploited a bug to take you for a few grand, would you feel that you had been stolen from? Would it affect your relationship with your friends if you found out that they had been taking you with this move?
I'm not sure the money was even metered or it probably would have been discovered earlier.Quote: GWAEA lot of this also happened at the Meadows. I know at least 3 people involved. I also know that there were other patsies that were never caught so there is plenty of money that they got away with even if they returned the money.
I have always had a question regarding returned money that maybe someone like the Wizard or someone in the know can answer.
In PA there is a law that says they have to pay out a minimum of 85%. Whenever someone like this hits a casino their payout is going to end up WAY higher than it should. If the casino sees that their numbers are way up on the money can they adjust their machines to meet whatever they want their payback to be? If they are able to do this, if the money is returned does it come off of their payback numbers?
Quote: AZDuffmanNICE! Love those roustabouts. I remember once wondering if you were on the border of being homeless would that be an option. My assistant manager said on some TV show a character lived in one.
People living in storage lockers has been going on for years. I had a unit at Storage One not far from Arizona Charlie's. No, I didn't live in it but a few guys did. The building was climate controlled so the Vegas heat couldn't melt anything. The office was open from 9 to 5 but I had 24 hour access using a code to get in the building. The rent was $40 a month. Pretty cheap rent if a guy needed a place to crash.
Quote: mickeycrimmPeople living in storage lockers has been going on for years. I had a unit at Storage One not far from Arizona Charlie's. No, I didn't live in it but a few guys did. The building was climate controlled so the Vegas heat couldn't melt anything. The office was open from 9 to 5 but I had 24 hour access using a code to get in the building. The rent was $40 a month. Pretty cheap rent if a guy needed a place to crash.
did you need a code to exit as well? If they know what time you enter and exit then they would be able to crack down on it.
So only 105 degrees and never 120.Quote: mickeycrimmThe building was climate controlled so the Vegas heat couldn't melt anything.
Quote: GWAEdid you need a code to exit as well?
Fire code usually requires that anyone can get out of the building.
Its a gate at the entrance not in the building its self. It wouldn't matter much what he was saying. A car could simply drop 3 guys off and then drive out.Quote: DieterFire code usually requires that anyone can get out of the building.
Quote: DieterFire code usually requires that anyone can get out of the building.
yeah but they could have fire exits that sound an alarm. Although I guess that would make no sense since no one would be there to shut it off. I think homeless people living on a street are just clueless. I know that if I ever became homeless I could eat well for free and probably figure out where to live that is better than a bridge. BTW, WTF are people doing being homeless in Pittsburgh during the winter. These people should start walking in the summer and make it south by winter time.
That's just the thing, 99% of people who are homeless have serious issues drugs,alcohol, mental health. It's rare a normal person will become homeless and stay that way for long. Sure it can happen, but usually a normal person can find a way out of the worst possibly situations. It has to be the perfect storm, No family, friends, relatives, money,job.Quote: GWAEyeah but they could have fire exits that sound an alarm. Although I guess that would make no sense since no one would be there to shut it off. I think homeless people living on a street are just clueless. I know that if I ever became homeless I could eat well for free and probably figure out where to live that is better than a bridge. BTW, WTF are people doing being homeless in Pittsburgh during the winter. These people should start walking in the summer and make it south by winter time.
2 Saturdays ago Josie and I got a chile dog at Derweenerschnitzels. They had special 5 for $5, so we bought another 10. Park were homeless hang out a few blocks away. Our church used to feed every 4th Sunday, until there was a stabbing. Now only 1 church does it once a month.
Anyway give one to guy flying a kite under Don't feed a bum sign city put up. My kinda guy. Has long beard like he stepped off of Smith Bros. cough drop box. Except his is white. Turn corner, drop Josie off to hit up 2 guys in wheelchairs, one I know is a vet. I make 3 more right hand turns and guy with kite still there. No chili dog in sight, just 2 red streaks down his white beard LOL
Quote: GWAEdid you need a code to exit as well? If they know what time you enter and exit then they would be able to crack down on it.
No, it was a four digit code to get in. Storage One was not fenced in so anyone could drive into the parking lot. The entrances were sliding glass doors that could be locked open because people are moving stuff in an out. But if you didn't lock the door open then you just had to hit a button to exit.
Quote: AxelWolfSo only 105 degrees and never 120.
No, I would say more like 75 to 80 degrees. In Las Vegas if you are going to store anything made of plastic for any length of time then you need a climate controlled unit. I heard too many horror stories from people who didn't. They leave the stuff in a non climate controlled unit for a couple of years and everything is melted, especially electronics.
Yes. And in my personal experience (*ahem* don't ask) that "length of time" to accidentally turn something casually tossed into a shed into an unrecognizable lump of "whatdahellwasthat" can be less than a single day.Quote: mickeycrimmNo, I would say more like 75 to 80 degrees. In Las Vegas if you are going to store anything made of plastic for any length of time then you need a climate controlled unit. I heard too many horror stories from people who didn't. They leave the stuff in a non climate controlled unit for a couple of years and everything is melted, especially electronics.
Quote: WizardTo address the title of the thread, I wouldn't call what they did cheating in the legal sense.
I think it is cheating. It's true that the individuals were only playing the game and hitting buttons they were legally entitled to hit, but the guilt is in their intent. They knew they were taking actions that would enrich themselves well beyond any playing strategy decisions. In fact, their playing actions were not based on basic or optimal strategy. Their actions were orchestrated and based on a combination of button pushes that they knew would have the predetermined outcome of extracting thousands of dollars.
I'd like to give the following analogy as an example: Let's say that there's a terrorist who knew that a gas outlet in some public place was going to be left on with no flame. And that any gas smell was not present because the gas was introduced to this location without any scent. The terrorist along with lots of other people are let into the area at some certain time. It is a "smoking area". The terrorist lights his cigarette and many people are killed. The terrorist was legally in the area, and he lit his cigarette legally. But it was his intent that was the crime.
Now you could say that the terrorist knew that the gas was turned on. And you could say that the video poker players knew that they would steal thousands of dollars from a casino. These video poker players figured out the "combination lock" if you will, to get into the video poker machines and take thousands of dollars. Knowing the combination to the lock is not a crime. But using it to "open" the machine and steal from it is.
