How do cards work in video poker?
Quote: EaglesnestIt's clear NOW.
Well then, don't fail to name someone at whom you're flinging (what sounds like) an insult and then be indignant at the confusion it causes.
Also, don't do that and then call someone paranoid when they react to it. The error was yours. I accept your unapology :)
It is sort of a running theme/joke around here that Axelwolf can't spell. Read the forum for a day or two and it becomes obvious.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNot among intelligent people. It is common to ask for references when someone makes a dubious claim.
The fact that there was a lawsuit against a slot machine manufacturer several decades ago is irrelevant. The claims that you have made about video poker have been discredited by knowledgeable, credible people who actually work in the industry.
You are all over the place on this one. First you claimed that they do it because they are allowed to, due to some lawsuit about slot machines (not video poker) in the 80s. Then when you were shown a regulation that says that they are not allowed to, and, in fact, the probability of a card being displayed must exactly match the probability in a non-machine game, you claimed that they do it anyway because they cheat, and the regulations are meaningless, and Gaming never checks the machines anyway. When it was pointed out that they do, in fact, check the machines, you clammed up and started to go after different lines of argument.
You are clearly wrong. I suspect that at this point you know that you are wrong, but you are too proud to admit it, so you continue to fight this losing battle and spew this paranoid nonsense. Either that or you are really so paranoid and delusional that you have convinced yourself that you are right and that the casinos are cheating you in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary.
It sure is a nice coping mechanism to explain your losses. "It's because they are cheating! No way I lost fair and square!" We have all heard this a million times. It's tiring.
Wowsa, it must be nice to never be wrong in your entire life. And being a telepath as well! How DO people avoid being blinded by your coruscating brilliance?
You and I disagree. I, unlike you, am willing to leave it at that. Your differing set of perceptions, garnered from a different set of experiences, and certainly, informed by a different mindset than mine, do not mean that you are "clearly wrong." Unlike you, I am willing to admit the validity of opinions different from my own.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIt is sort of a running theme/joke around here that Axelwolf can't spell. Read the forum for a day or two and it becomes obvious.
I've seen in his writing the kind of oddball sentence construction errors that are common to non-native English speakers, but I didn't really understand how so many spelling errors could creep in. Especially since spellcheckers would have caught most of them.
Quote: EaglesnestDidn't I already say I couldn't locate any references to the lawsuit, because it was quite a while ago? I do further recall that it was in 1988, and that the Nevada Gaming Control Board sued the manufacturer--but I still don't remember who that manufacturer was, nor am I inclined to drive to Carson City and search the archives. I, in point of fact, don't really give a rabbit's rectum whether anyone here believes me or not. You can think that I made the whole thing up if you wish (though you COULD read the article I provided a link to--that is enough of a "citation" IMHO).
Quote:
Again, this particular incident didn't happen in isolation. There are many, easily searchable subsequent instances of slot/VP machine manufacturer malfeasance. And to name a particular, yes, I admit anecdotal and lacking proof instance from your stomping ground of Montana, I encountered several VP machines on the Blackfoot reservation that SHOULD have returned 112% based on the paytable, but somehow everyone always lost. They were double joker machines, and one thing I noticed is that when dealt both jokers, one NEVER finished with better than three of a kind (a push). And the machines were made by Bally.
Yeah, that's because Montana's slot machines are class II, not random. The pay table could be anything. You can throw away four of a kind and the slot machine would return a different four of a kind. Come on. Many state's slot machine operate this way, including in the Indian Casinos (racinos) in New York state. This lack of knowledge just kills your credibility.
You must be talking about this. No lawsuit filed, but they changed one of their regulations (Regulation 14) to prevent it. No lawsuit. You're wrong.
Quote: Nevada gaming14.040 Minimum standards for gaming devices. All gaming devices submitted for approval:
2. Must use a random selection process to determine the game outcome of each play of a game. The random selection process must meet 95 percent confidence limits using a standard chi-squared test for goodness of fit.
(a) Each possible permutation or combination of game elements which produce winning or losing game outcomes must be available for random selection at the initiation of each play.
(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of game elements or detectable dependency upon any previous game outcome, the amount wagered, or upon the style or method of play.
3. Must display an accurate representation of the game outcome. After selection of the game outcome, the gaming device must not make a variable secondary decision which affects the result shown to the player.
Quote: EaglesnestYou and I disagree. I, unlike you, am willing to leave it at that. Your differing set of perceptions, garnered from a different set of experiences, and certainly, informed by a different mindset than mine, do not mean that you are "clearly wrong." Unlike you, I am willing to admit the validity of opinions different from my own.
None of this has anything to do with opinions.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts, as the saying goes. If you want to have a discussion on subjective topics (like the best steakhouse in Vegas) then, yes, multiple opinions can be valid. If, on the other hand, you want to state adamantly that 1+1=3, and that your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's, then you are wrong, both in your use of the term "opinion" and in your arithmetic.
Quote: EaglesnestI've seen in his writing the kind of oddball sentence construction errors that are common to non-native English speakers, but I didn't really understand how so many spelling errors could creep in. Especially since spellcheckers would have caught most of them.
He is a native English speaker. I have no problems understanding him in person. He just can't write.
He's also a very smart guy and is incredibly creative when it comes to figuring out how to (legally) make money in casinos. If I wanted to know the best way to attack a promotion, he is the first person I'd talk to.
Quote: EaglesnestAgain, this particular incident didn't happen in isolation. There are many, easily searchable subsequent instances of slot/VP machine manufacturer malfeasance. And to name a particular, yes, I admit anecdotal and lacking proof instance from your stomping ground of Montana, I encountered several VP machines on the Blackfoot reservation that SHOULD have returned 112% based on the paytable, but somehow everyone always lost. They were double joker machines, and one thing I noticed is that when dealt both jokers, one NEVER finished with better than three of a kind (a push). And the machines were made by Bally.
You weren't playing Joker Poker. You were playing pull tabs. All the machines on the Blackfeet Reservation are Class II.
I now hear crickets and shame.
I have to score this one to the "WoV crew".
The eagle has landed.
HOWEVER (a little off topic) I also walked down to showboat the same weekend (AC) and 2 machines next to each other both hit a royal for hand pay and were left at the "call attendant" screen. Either they didn't want to risk any more royals being dealt on the machine until close, or is it possible that they were using these two machines as some type of "free advertising" to lure in more players? In my opinion, the odds of two VP machines next to one another both showing royals is slim, but I guess still possible.
Quote: EaglesnestI do further recall that it was in 1988, and that the Nevada Gaming Control Board sued the manufacturer--but I still don't remember who that manufacturer was, nor am I inclined to drive to Carson City and search the archives. I, in point of fact, don't really give a rabbit's rectum whether anyone here believes me or not. You can think that I made the whole thing up if you wish (though you COULD read the article I provided a link to--that is enough of a "citation" IMHO).
I told you in a previous post the manufacturer was Universal. I do not believe Nevada Gaming sued them but did require them to change the machines and the way future machines would be designed.
I think you need to realize that some of us actually work in this business and have been involved in manufacturing gaming equipment for more than 25 years.
Quote: DRichI told you in a previous post the manufacturer was Universal. I do not believe Nevada Gaming sued them but did require them to change the machines and the way future machines would be designed.
I think you need to realize that some of us actually work in this business and have been involved in manufacturing gaming equipment for more than 25 years.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I thought it was American Coin/Larry Volk gaming and murder scandal.(should be a movie )
Casinos had no part of this.
Gaming control took A.C.C. over and closed them down in 1989/1990 after they caught wind of the scandal within the company that helped profit the company over 15 million.
Allegedly, Volk was pressured by someone in the company to gaff VP machines to not hit royals.
He was going to testify and his house was bombed( but no dice )
Soon after he was shot in the head and killed.
I believe someone confessed and got off somehow and named others.
Don't believe any of this because I'm sure I misspelled somthing
LOLQuote: AxelWolf
Don't believe any of this because I'm sure I misspelled somthing
Quote: AxelWolfCorrect me if I'm wrong but, I thought it was American Coin/Larry Volk gaming and murder scandal.(should be a movie )
Casinos had no part of this.
Gaming control took A.C.C. over and closed them down in 1989/1990 after they caught wind of the scandal within the company that helped profit the company over 15 million.
Allegedly, Volk was pressured by someone in the company to gaff VP machines to not hit royals.
He was going to testify and his house was bombed( but no dice )
Soon after he was shot in the head and killed.
I believe someone confessed and got off somehow and named others.
Don't believe any of this because I'm sure I misspelled somthing
Yes, American Coin was the route operator caught cheating. I was referring to the "near miss" allegations.
My understanding of the American Coin incident was that royals could still be hit but at a much lower likelyhood than statistically probable. If the program saw a royal was going to be hit, it would occasionally change the cards so it wouldn't be a royal.
Quote: mickeycrimmYou weren't playing Joker Poker. You were playing pull tabs. All the machines on the Blackfeet Reservation are Class II.
This was quite some time ago; they were actual Bally VP machines. Of course, they could have been fiddled with internally in any one of a number of ways. The Blackfeet rez used to violate its gaming compact in dozens of ways.
I find it interesting that we all agree (in some form or other) that there have indeed been multiple documented instances of slot manufacturer/casino cheating and yet, the virginal honesty of the industry is still being defended. It does indeed come down to what information you choose to credit and what you choose to ignore. I do not base my low opinion of casinos solely on these instances. Rather, I base it on their continual unethical conduct over the last several decades, both in my own personal experience and that which I have been told about (from sources I trust).
I am actually a long-term modest winner at VP and other casino games, so I don't think that the casinos routinely cheat INSOFAR AS ALTERING THE RESULTS of games. I DO think--and have observed--that casino cheating happens more often that most people suspect. ALSO...mocking and insulting anyone who reports something "funny" certainly helps draw an opaque veil over any cheating that may be going on! Believe me, I've heard all the usual counter-arguments: you're trying to explain away your losses, you're overemphasizing short-term results, the casinos would never never never cheat because they're already money factories, they would never jeopardize their licenses, etc. etc. Those arguments are specious, in that most of them are nothing more than ad hominem attacks.
In any case, I will avoid any more fruitless discussion of this topic; you all lack a sufficient degree of objectivity, which, as I said, I do understand.
Quote: boymimboI abhor ignorance, especially when it takes 10 minutes on Google to find the truth.
I abhor the misconception that one can find out the truth about anything via a ten-minute Google search. THAT leads to TRUE ignorance.
Quote: Eaglesnest
In any case, I will avoid any more fruitless discussion of this topic;
Thank you, I am sure the quality and understanding of fact in these posts will now be much more legitimate.
Quote: AxelWolf.
If you are talking about what the OP claims. Its not happening to any more of a degree than a simple urban legend. The odds of it happening are astronomical. You are welcome to show proof. happy to make a wager of some kind.
People claim all this crap is happening but they are almost never willing to back any claims up or put money were there mouth is.
If i'm willing to make a claim I believe in, no matter how crazy , I'm willing to show proof, wager on it or just exploit it. I have done all of that in various situations.
I have seen a hand on a class 3 machine where 5 cards of the same rank appeared. In general though I'm on the side of most responders here because I've only seen it once in millions of hands of vp.
Quote: AxelWolfCorrect me if I'm wrong but, I thought it was American Coin/Larry Volk gaming and murder scandal.(should be a movie )
Casinos had no part of this.
Gaming control took A.C.C. over and closed them down in 1989/1990 after they caught wind of the scandal within the company that helped profit the company over 15 million.
Allegedly, Volk was pressured by someone in the company to gaff VP machines to not hit royals.
He was going to testify and his house was bombed( but no dice )
Soon after he was shot in the head and killed.
I believe someone confessed and got off somehow and named others.
Don't believe any of this because I'm sure I misspelled somthing
There is a City Confidential episode on this that sometimes reruns on the Bio Channel. Interesting show if you ever get to see it.
Quote: DRichThank you, I am sure the quality and understanding of fact in these posts will now be much more legitimate.
I don't share your confidence that the quality of understanding on the part of the people who read my posts will improve in any way. Every reaction I received, with a couple of exceptions, was reflexive rather than thoughtful.
I repeat: your or anyone else's disagreement with me (or with anyone else, or mine with anyone else) does not confer the status of exalted truth on your statements, nor does it condemn mine to the status of wicked falsehood. EVEN...EVEN...on the INTERNET!!!
Quote: chickenmanI think your sarcasm detector needs batteries...
If the poster is under thirty, then chances are, he truly believes that Google searches are the source of all wisdom. So I didn't have enough information to tell whether he was being sarcastic or not. In any case, most of what is being discussed--if that is the word here--predates the widespread use of the internet. Back in the day, we learned stuff by talking to people and reading books, magazines, and newspapers. Hopelessly obsolete, I know.
Quote: EaglesnestI don't share your confidence that the quality of understanding on the part of the people who read my posts will improve in any way. Every reaction I received, with a couple of exceptions, was reflexive rather than thoughtful.
I repeat: your or anyone else's disagreement with me (or with anyone else, or mine with anyone else) does not confer the status of exalted truth on your statements, nor does it condemn mine to the status of wicked falsehood. EVEN...EVEN...on the INTERNET!!!
I don't necessarily think your views are false, just unlikely and infrequent. There has definitely been cheating in gaming before and there will be again. I think everyone should evaluate the risks and come to their own conclusion if they think it is safe enough. My analogy would be an airplane. We all know that commercial airplanes crash occasionally, but most of us will still choose to fly because we believe the risks are minimal.
Quote: DRichI don't necessarily think your views are false, just unlikely and infrequent. There has definitely been cheating in gaming before and there will be again. I think everyone should evaluate the risks and come to their own conclusion if they think it is safe enough. My analogy would be an airplane. We all know that commercial airplanes crash occasionally, but most of us will still choose to fly because we believe the risks are minimal.
Right. But to extend your analogy, we wouldn't get on board the plane if we saw the pilot snorting coke or we happened to know he was a convicted felon. Also, casino cheating is far more common than plane crashes. When there's anything significant at stake, we "trust but verify" if and when we can. I count my change every time, even if it's been correct 1000 times in a row. Some things we do have to take on faith, because verifying them is too costly or not feasible. I think that gambling falls somewhere in the middle: most of the time, if we were cheated, we'd never know it. But many times, the cheating has been blatant, right in front of me, and not well concealed at all (and no, everybody, I'm not going to post multiple video clips of those incidents downloaded from the camera that I had installed to replace my right eyeball).
To my point of view, every string of abnormally bad results carries with it some nonzero chance that said results were not a random occurrence. At some point--whatever that point may be for each one of us--we start to get suspicious. With a trusting soul, that might not happen until losing forty hands of blackjack in a row or losing 100 coin flips. I do try to quantify my far-left-of-the-median results to see if I should, in fact, be suspicious. Suffice it to say that I have experienced over a dozen sets of results in my lifetime the odds of which empirically were several billion to one or greater. Of course, I COULD have simply been horribly unlucky any one of those times...
Suppose you walk into your favorite large casino on the Las Vegas strip. You plop down in front of your favorite video poker machine with your favorite game and pay table. You start playing.
What do you think the chances are that that machine is NOT operating according to the NGC regulations? Ballpark; closest order of magnitude is fine.
On the other hand, I had a good friend (great guy, fairly smart and logical for the most part) who I worked with at the casino in the early 90s, he was a few years older then and made double what I did and finished community collage. He had all the information and opportunities to succeed as an AP. He had assess to some very successful AP's. He was given the keys and semi guided he even made some good plays.
In the 90's there were many incredible no risk opportunities, $20 an hr was a joke, even at the .25 level. He even got 20k settlement. "He was in a wreck and got a check"
Because of wacky theories that started out like the OP stated. It lead him down a dark path (I tried so hard to make him see the light) eventually he blew everything and had to go back to work.
Quote: EaglesnestI abhor the misconception that one can find out the truth about anything via a ten-minute Google search. THAT leads to TRUE ignorance.
Yeah, because I'd rather trust a false recollection.
Quote: JoePloppyThis has been a verbal beat down.
I now hear crickets and shame.
I have to score this one to the "WoV crew".
The eagle has landed.
But there is no victory song. There is just those of us who do it....and those of us who dream about it....the dreams of those who want to be....are just dreams of the want to be's. They can't do like us....so their brain imagines all kinds of weird shit. There is nothing I can do about that....and in the end I don't care.
All I need is my bike, my baby and my banjo. Let's ride.
Quote: boymimbochances? About 0.01%
Wait, what? You think that 1 in 10k machines are gaffed?
I'd go with somewhere between 1 in a million and 1 in a billion.
Now, now Mickey be fair, you can believe in rare crazy events and make a MODERATE amount of money and know everything.Quote: mickeycrimmBut there is no victory song. There is just those of us who do it....and those of us who dream about it....the dreams of those who want to be....are just dreams of the want to be's. They can't do like us....so their brain imagines all kinds of weird shit. There is nothing I can do about that....and in the end I don't care.
All I need is my bike, my baby and my banjo. Let's ride.
Billion? are there casinos I'm unaware of?Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWait, what? You think that 1 in 10k machines are gaffed?
I'd go with somewhere between 1 in a million and 1 in a billion.
Quote: AxelWolfNow, now Mickey be fair, you can believe in rare crazy events and make a MODERATE amount of money and know everything.
Software bugs can and do exist. God knows I've written enough of them. I have no doubt that if you play long enough, you will see some strange stuff.
This is not the same as the paranoid nonsense that says that the casinos are intentionally putting cheating machines in so that they can make more money. This is the standard conspiracy theory drivel. I'll bet that when Eaglesnest is not posting here he is searching for the truth of 9-11 or the Kennedy Assassination. The truth is out there!!!!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceLet's look at this from a different point of view.
Suppose you walk into your favorite large casino on the Las Vegas strip. You plop down in front of your favorite video poker machine with your favorite game and pay table. You start playing.
What do you think the chances are that that machine is NOT operating according to the NGC regulations? Ballpark; closest order of magnitude is fine.
Quite small. I have already said at least four times that it would take severely anomalous negative results to trigger my suspicions. I also said that the probability of having been cheated rises as the magnitude of a group of negative results increases. I also said that we each have our own thresholds of suspicion. Please don't try the tired old reductio ad absurdum tactic. It's stupid and unoriginal. Walking the casino floor, I see a dealer, the probability of him cheating me is close to zero. I sit down and lose twenty hands in a row; that probability is now greater. How MUCH greater is largely a subjective measure, but only an innocent, naïve lamb would just chalk up such a result to bad luck.
Of course, I've observed dealers cheating on dozens of occasions, often when I wasn't even the victim. Not all cheaters are slick magicians. Some of them have very obvious, even blatant moves, relying on the fact that the average gambler has left his mind in the glove compartment. Similarly, cheating slots exist because a long losing streak and a terrible result is common with an honest machine--very few gamblers will persist at a losing machine long enough to create a sample size of results sufficient to arouse suspicion.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSoftware bugs can and do exist. God knows I've written enough of them. I have no doubt that if you play long enough, you will see some strange stuff.
This is not the same as the paranoid nonsense that says that the casinos are intentionally putting cheating machines in so that they can make more money. This is the standard conspiracy theory drivel. I'll bet that when Eaglesnest is not posting here he is searching for the truth of 9-11 or the Kennedy Assassination. The truth is out there!!!!
Why can no one on the internet simply disagree with someone else without flinging insults like a fourth-grader? You may not share my point of view--or, more to the point, my experiences--but don't be so disgustingly arrogant as to think that your point of view is the only valid one. Name-calling and snarky little insults don't reinforce your argument--they degrade it. I'm not some kind of conspiracy theorist--I have observed enough smoke to infer the existence of fire. In any case, no one here except you says that casinos never cheat. It seems naïve and stupid not to be suspicious, or at LEAST wary. Of course, were I working for a casino, I would immediately attack anyone who stated that the industry is dishonest by calling him a conspiracy theorist... (and of course, dragging in that old thigh-slapper, the tinfoil hat "joke")
Your argument is basically stating that there is a non-zero probability that a casino is cheating. So what? Who cares? There's a non-zero probability that I will die on my way to the casino, too.
Funnily enough, the only example of casino cheating that you gave was simply a fact of you not knowing the rules of the game (pull-tabs vs real VP)
Why are you talking about table games?Quote: EaglesnestWhy can no one on the internet simply disagree with someone else without flinging insults like a fourth-grader? You may not share my point of view--or, more to the point, my experiences--but don't be so disgustingly arrogant as to think that your point of view is the only valid one. Name-calling and snarky little insults don't reinforce your argument--they degrade it. I'm not some kind of conspiracy theorist--I have observed enough smoke to infer the existence of fire. In any case, no one here except you says that casinos never cheat. It seems naïve and stupid not to be suspicious, or at LEAST wary. Of course, were I working for a casino, I would immediately attack anyone who stated that the industry is dishonest by calling him a conspiracy theorist... (and of course, dragging in that old thigh-slapper, the tinfoil hat "joke")
Quote: AxelWolfWhy are you talking about table games?
He likes to change the subject when he is clearly wrong. Remind you of anyone else on this site? I think you nailed it a week or so ago... what was it you called him... someone Jr?
PS. if only Lem66 would have changed the subject. He was not a bad guy. Just on that subject. Hopefully he will change his views someday soon.
I did play a slot earlier, and got a ton of hits on the lowest denom, and nothing on the highest denom. That is gaffed. But I made money on it so I won't report it :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZomwVcGt0LEQuote: djatcThat is gaffed. But I made money on it so I won't report it :)
Quote: AxelWolfWTF, I WANT MY CUT.
Ok with the losses from the day before you owe me money.
In that case, no action.Quote: djatcOk with the losses from the day before you owe me money.
You really are a bore.Quote: EaglesnestWhy can no one on the internet simply disagree with someone else without flinging insults like a fourth-grader? You may not share my point of view--or, more to the point, my experiences--but don't be so disgustingly arrogant as to think that your point of view is the only valid one. Name-calling and snarky little insults don't reinforce your argument--they degrade it. I'm not some kind of conspiracy theorist--I have observed enough smoke to infer the existence of fire. In any case, no one here except you says that casinos never cheat. It seems naïve and stupid not to be suspicious, or at LEAST wary. Of course, were I working for a casino, I would immediately attack anyone who stated that the industry is dishonest by calling him a conspiracy theorist... (and of course, dragging in that old thigh-slapper, the tinfoil hat "joke")
Quote: mickeycrimmYou really are a bore.
Mellowed in your old age, have you Mick ?
Quote: AxelWolfWhy are you talking about table games?
Because I wish to. Why did you eat dinner tonight?
