VP double-up bug
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/game-king/
Quote: IbeatyouracesI blame IGT, not the players.
I blame IGT too. They did nothing to alter the machine. Good read though. But I am a little surprised someone didn't stumble upon the glitch sooner.
Quote: tringlomaneI blame IGT too. They did nothing to alter the machine. Good read though. But I am a little surprised someone didn't stumble upon the glitch sooner.
I agree partially, except that it wasn't a new hand being dealt. If you actually received a new hand that was a big winner, I would say there's nothing criminal and you could conceivably plead ignorance But you are being paid AGAIN for a hand you were already paid for, without action or any play whatsoever. I have a harder time allowing that as simply playing the game.
Oh, and so THIS is why Double Ups started disappearing a couple of years ago. Now it makes sense.
Quote: cclub79I agree partially, except that it wasn't a new hand being dealt. If you actually received a new hand that was a big winner, I would say there's nothing criminal and you could conceivably plead ignorance But you are being paid AGAIN for a hand you were already paid for, without action or any play whatsoever. I have a harder time allowing that as simply playing the game.
Oh, and so THIS is why Double Ups started disappearing a couple of years ago. Now it makes sense.
Yeah, since you put it that way, it's akin to capping bets at table games I suppose. What they did is terribly unethical at the minimum. And yeah, double ups can be fun. :(
And it seems a reasonable claim that the player did not seek any access to the system beyond the rules. A 10x firmware error lying dormant for seven years seems strange but is it really "hacking" to take advantage of what is freely available to the player?
http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/ipswich_crowds_build_up_at_atm_paying_double_money_1_1459912
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/bank-america-error-lets-man-withdraw-1-5m-atms-gamble-article-1.1099006
"At this point, the game can be exited and the demonization changed to a value that will cause the targeted win to increase..." (emphasis mine)
Now I have to go design a slot game with variable demonization levels...
Quote: rxwineNot sure that it's fair play, but I would have a tough time walking away and not exploiting it if I discovered it.
The best way would probably be to win 100 bucks, then punch it up to $1000 and avoid the handpay. If they did that once a day (or even a couple of times), probably would not have ever been noticed. Or just do a handpay very rarely.
Quote: MathExtremistHow is this case any different than exploiting a situation where an ATM malfunctions?
Specific ATM cases have been settled in court. This hasn't. Not sure you can always extrapolate that every individual gambling situation doesn't have unique qualifications.
Quote: cclub79I agree partially, except that it wasn't a new hand being dealt. If you actually received a new hand that was a big winner, I would say there's nothing criminal and you could conceivably plead ignorance But you are being paid AGAIN for a hand you were already paid for, without action or any play whatsoever. I have a harder time allowing that as simply playing the game.
Oh, and so THIS is why Double Ups started disappearing a couple of years ago. Now it makes sense.
They didn't charge them with being overpaid though. Laws used to be common sense, but now laws are made like this with 2 different laws for people versus laws for companies. Revel plans bankruptcy, but you can't do that as an individual. If I mail a check to someone I mistakenly thought I owed, I can expect to not get it back. But, if the bank puts the money into my account through their error, I can go to jail if I spend it and don't pay it back.
Is it really fair to charge them? I agree with their lawyer who said all they did was push buttons they were entitled to push. It's all on IGT and the casino to some degree for not figuring it out sooner.
Did IGT know about this and try to just shove it under the rug? This makes sense unless they figured they might as well not give people playing machines a good bet. I still miss seeing Super 8s on those damn Game Kings. Damn you IGT for killing that game.
Quote: MathExtremistHow is this case any different than exploiting a situation where an ATM malfunctions? There's no way to suggest that an ATM that lets you withdraw more money than you asked for (or that you have in your account) is working as intended.
http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/ipswich_crowds_build_up_at_atm_paying_double_money_1_1459912
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/bank-america-error-lets-man-withdraw-1-5m-atms-gamble-article-1.1099006
They have passed special laws just to apply to these kinds of things, especially in banking. I don't think it has much to do law wise with a case like this. It would be nice if common sense laws were the law of the land though and they applied equally to everyone.
Feds Drop Hacking Charges in Video-Poker Glitching Case
guys were caught.
Can somebody tell me if WMS and IGT are anyway related? Or were related companies say late 90s early 2000?
Quote: coilmanWhile looking for some information online I stumbled upon some Canadian Court case info that started a decade before these
guys were caught.
Can somebody tell me if WMS and IGT are anyway related? Or were related companies say late 90s early 2000?
No they are not. The WMS double up bug was much older and completely different. If I remember correctly you could predict the dealer card based on the finishing poker hand.
Not then, but with all the mergers it's possible now. IGT was bought by a smaller company but can't remember which. WMS would have still been Williams back then.Quote: coilmanWhile looking for some information online I stumbled upon some Canadian Court case info that started a decade before these
guys were caught.
Can somebody tell me if WMS and IGT are anyway related? Or were related companies say late 90s early 2000?
funny how after 2007 the court notes stop.... maybe somebody got his pot of gold
http://www.canlii.org/en/index.html
Williams had a few different glitches.
It seems someone knows how and what to look for.
Is this something that advanced programming knowledge plays a factor?
Quote: AxelWolfIs this something that advanced programming knowledge plays a factor?
I believe the relevant skills are pattern recognition and analysis, which are useful for computer programming, but certainly independent.
Rather than looking at computer programmers, look out for scientists and auditors.
WMS was acquired by Scientific Gaming last year. SHFL was acquired by Ballytech last November. Bally itself was acquired by SciGaming last week.
So my understanding is, IGT products are competitors with the merged Bally/WMS products now, in the slots/VP category. Scientific Gaming and GTECH were both lottery/VLT/Bingo types and both bought to expand their profile. GTECH does not, to my knowledge, distribute table games, but SciGaming plans to keep the SHFL table games group largely intact internally, again as far as I know. No idea whether the IGT/Bally/WMS gaming brand names will continue to appear going forward.
Anyone with a better knowledge of how this all is shaking out or parent company plans is welcome to correct any inaccuracies.
Elaborate please.Quote: DieterI believe the relevant skills are pattern recognition .
Quote: AxelWolfElaborate please.
If you make a series of observations and notice a trend, and then determine that the trend is exploitable... just like any other opportunity.
It has nothing to do with knowing how to program, just like clocking a wheel has nothing to do with designing a bearing.
Identifying a pattern where one should not be forms the basis of many opportunities.
I think we are on a different page.Quote: DieterIf you make a series of observations and notice a trend, and then determine that the trend is exploitable... just like any other opportunity.
It has nothing to do with knowing how to program, just like clocking a wheel has nothing to do with designing a bearing.
Identifying a pattern where one should not be forms the basis of many opportunities.
The VP glitches I was referring to really didn't have anything to do with patterns in the cards.
Quote: DRichBabs, you are right on with your company observations. Until recently the only real correlations were that IGT was basically started by Bally people because Bally had no interest in video poker. Also, the WMS slot platform was the same for WMS and Bally in the 2000's. They were both developed by a company called Sierra Design which was eventually purchased by Bally.
I should have guessed those slots came from Sierra Design! I loved that shop's work; I must've bought 30 of their PC games over their first 10 years. Was very sad they had a professional falling-out among the partners and dissolved the company (the woman, Laura?, was one of the most respected designers in the 90's along with I think Ken something, and just about the only woman in the business). WMS early slots (Whodunnit, Winning Bid, couple of others; I didn't like Jackpot Party but that was probably their most popular design) still stand as some of the most interesting ever fielded IMO.
That's a different company. Sierra On-Line. They did have great, great computer games.Quote: beachbumbabsI should have guessed those slots came from Sierra Design! I loved that shop's work; I must've bought 30 of their PC games over their first 10 years. Was very sad they had a professional falling-out among the partners and dissolved the company (the woman, Laura?, was one of the most respected designers in the 90's along with I think Ken something, and just about the only woman in the business). WMS early slots (Whodunnit, Winning Bid, couple of others; I didn't like Jackpot Party but that was probably their most popular design) still stand as some of the most interesting ever fielded IMO.
Quote: AxelWolfThe VP glitches I was referring to really didn't have anything to do with patterns in the cards.
I'm sure.
Still, recognizing the glitch doesn't have anything to do with programming as far as I can tell, unless you get to see the program code and know what you're looking at.
