Are you being watched?
if these persons were just watching to learn some things, they would be right behind the players to see what's going on, not approx 10m away. the persons i am referring to were alone, and not dressed that great. when i say persons, i mean that i noticed this type of scenario, with lone individuals, on a few different occasions.
the q is, was i being watched? considering my min bet is $15, and max about $100, i would hardly rate my presence as a financial threat to the casino. but are some casinos paranoid?
10m seems too far away for them to be security monitoring your play.
Then again they could be drunk / stoned just "staring into space" all zoned out: it happens.
Rarely, if I am on a serious run, at some point towards the tail end of the run when the winning numbers have risen above six figures, some "suit" will come out of nowhere, generally stand at a respectful distance, and observe. The smaller the casino - the sooner such a vulture will appear. These casino managers are just looking to make sure that no cheating is happening.
And then of course - we have the hustlers, who do anything from stand watching to plop themselves down at the table (if the table is public), and start offering bits of unwanted advice as to how to handle the next hand or the session in general. These types will generally, if not invariably, ask for a handout either during or at the end of the successful session.
But in all cases - these types appear as the sums of money in front of the player start rising. When you have forty grand (or more) in front of you, everyone's your friend.
Quote: Wellbushwas i being watched?
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In a casino?
Yes.
Quote: Wellbushi had a few small loose papers in front of me at the table, to remind me of a few things about the strategy i was employing. maybe the casino got suspicious?
definitely - 100% for sure
no experienced AP would have such papers
but very green ones might
and casinos definitely don't like players even if they're not APs having physical things to aid them at the BJ table
at any other table game - bacc, roulette, craps - no problem - but BJ - NO WAY
I have even seen a pit critter come up to a player with a tiny basic strategy card that they sell in casino gift shops and tell him to keep it down
I also gather that you're dramatically varying the size of your bets
although you're not an AP - that is typical of APs - and even if you're not counting will get pit critters interested - trying to figure you out
but once they realize you're into progressions not reflective of the deck composition, no problem
if you're playing BJ you definitely want to lose those papers
.
As others pointed out, management doesnt stand at a distance.
How were they dressed? How they were dressed will tell you a lot.
When I've been at the local casino I noticed a familiar face - an older Asian guy, called Kim, playing bj. Whilst playing along side I said: "you seem to be a regular. How long have you been playing here?" Answer: "ever since the casino opened!" I said: "that would be 30-35 years ago." He said: "about 1986, whenever the casino opened!"
I find those kind of things hard to fathom. I think this guy comes and plays bj nearly every day. Has he been doing this for 35 years? I think it's quite possible! Makes my head spin with all sorts of qs!
I noticed a suit staring at me from maybe 50 ft away. I think he was wondering whether to back me off. Its seems unusual to lock onto someone far away.
An avg dressed man put his hand on the chair next to me. I cashed out. I think he was about to back off me.
Quote: jjjooogggAfter i cashed a few grand, A kid followed me to the parking garage. He literally looked left and right. When he saw too many people were around, he walked back to the elevator.
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I noticed a suit staring at me from maybe 50 ft away. I think he was wondering whether to back me off. Its seems unusual to lock onto someone far away.
An avg dressed man put his hand on the chair next to me. I cashed out. I think he was about to back off me.
your autisticly dry humor actually confused me and i kicked myself in the ass for believing you for even a split second... kind of reminded me of chump change for a second except it was on topic
and i guess to stay on topic i met one guy who truly thought he was being followed by multiple people. he claimed they started to show up when he started to win at the "bally digilital roulette machine" and that he had a "system" that worked. they followed him and would watch him at the machines. i think he even claimed they escorted him out at one point for winning too much. i sadly wish i was joking about this guy as this thread is much more enjoyable to hear come out of someones mouth than what that guy was saying.
i dont doubt that he believes someone is following him at all either. i dont doubt that wellbush thinks they are being followed. but i also think there are millions of people out in the world and its very possible that it was separately awkward dudes just sitting there looking to get laid that night and just so happen to be all wanting to be flys on the wall so to say.
Its pretty common to be watched by random people. You say they were dressed poorly, its not uncommon for vagrants (I don't mean that term as an insult, I am just not sure what other term to use) and such to watch people, and if they run well ask for some money with the line, "I just saw you win X amount can you help me out". Basically people scoping for winners so they can guilt you into "helping them out". That is my guess anyway. There are also of course some random people who drift through casinos and just enjoy and are curious about table games and stand there and watch for a bit, but they usually do not linger long or focus on one player, but its always possible.
Casinos don't need undercover people to watch you (not at table games anyway), they can easily do this digitally while you are at the table, I am sure they already knew what your paper on the table said or was if it was face up and if it contained information that they did not want you to have, they would have asked you to leave the table or at the very least to take the paper off of the table.
Quote: heatmaplink to original post
your autisticly dry humor actually confused me and i kicked myself in the ass for believing you for even a split second... kind of reminded me of chump change for a second except it was on topic
and i guess to stay on topic i met one guy who truly thought he was being followed by multiple people. he claimed they started to show up when he started to win at the "bally digilital roulette machine" and that he had a "system" that worked. they followed him and would watch him at the machines. i think he even claimed they escorted him out at one point for winning too much. i sadly wish i was joking about this guy as this thread is much more enjoyable to hear come out of someones mouth than what that guy was saying.
i dont doubt that he believes someone is following him at all either. i dont doubt that wellbush thinks they are being followed. but i also think there are millions of people out in the world and its very possible that it was separately awkward dudes just sitting there looking to get laid that night and just so happen to be all wanting to be flys on the wall so to say.
What’s even funnier is that im not joking. It all happened. That last story sounds like a joke. Its not. The average dressed guy had no interest in the table. He was looking away afar impatient. The moment i said to color up, he walked away. On another occasion, I saw an average dressed casino personel walk behind the tables to do computer work.
So, when people say that "no casino manager" would stand 30 or so feet away to observe play, this is an assumption. The fact is, that is exactly what has happened to me, more than once, when a suit clearly not part of the usual floor crew has stood at a respectful distance, beyond the edge of a grand Baccarat table, or well beyond a smaller Baccarat table, hands folded in front, watching. Perhaps, if I had been suspected of actual cheating, the grim reaper would have come much closer, but I suspect that this sort of thing, standing there at a respectful distance, is more of way to show that the casino is actively involved, versus actually concerned.
At Blackjack, I have never had anyone other than the usual pit personnel observe my play, but at times when I am betting heavily and varying bet a lot (which for me is, always) at a public table, the pit boss will take a lot more time to watch my table than to watch others under his supervision. Also, with blackjack, whenever something has been up, this has been demonstrated by action not mere observation...the action being the pit boss' order to shuffle the deck just after I have jumped the bet, or (one time only this happened to me), for suit(s) to come out of nowhere to take me aside and ban me.
I have to admit, I have never had anyone plain clothes watch me - always obvious casino employed supervisors or managers in suits, but if jjjoooggg says that is what happened, maybe it did. I certainly cannot say that I know for a fact that plain clothes casino workers do not exist on the floor.
Yeah, makes a lot of sense. "Paranoid," is actually how that Kim guy described the casino.Quote: GandlerYou are being watched by the casino, and many casinos are certainly paranoid, but that is probably not who the random people behind you are.
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Its pretty common to be watched by random people. You say they were dressed poorly, its not uncommon for vagrants (I don't mean that term as an insult, I am just not sure what other term to use) and such to watch people, and if they run well ask for some money with the line, "I just saw you win X amount can you help me out". Basically people scoping for winners so they can guilt you into "helping them out". That is my guess anyway. There are also of course some random people who drift through casinos and just enjoy and are curious about table games and stand there and watch for a bit, but they usually do not linger long or focus on one player, but its always possible.
Casinos don't need undercover people to watch you (not at table games anyway), they can easily do this digitally while you are at the table, I am sure they already knew what your paper on the table said or was if it was face up and if it contained information that they did not want you to have, they would have asked you to leave the table or at the very least to take the paper off of the table.
Mr Kim saw my guidance papers (probably stood out a mile away to everyone in the casino) and asked me about them. I said I needed some reminders for a strategy I was trialling. He wanted to know if I was using basic strategy? I said: "Sure. That always comes first." He seemed happy with that reply. I think he wanted to know more. I told him I'm happy for him to watch me and try and work it out, but I wasn't gonna hand my strategy to him on a platter. I told him if he asked me what he uncovered from watching me, I would tell him if he was on the right track.
I then got in to asking him about his lengthy period of coming to the casino. I said: "You've been coming here so long, are you in profit?" He looked stunned by my q. This q I asked was in front of the dealer and other players at the table. He didn't answer me and a bit later he told me he didn't like my q, especially in front of the dealer. He told me I should keep my strategies and this talk to myself, and not have papers around coz the casino and dealers are paranoid!
I got the message. I wanna catch up with this guy, Mr Kim, one day. I'm sure he has plenty of knowledge up his sleeve from 35 years of coming to the casino and playing bj.
Quote: ChallengedMillyCould technically be a plain clothes security person just scoping out your vision radius and any weird patterns in your play. Could be checking to see if you are working in a bj team.
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He probably was not regular personel. Surveilance does not fraternize with normal casino personel (according to a surveilance author in an article). Dress code was different. I was the only player at the table.
I dreamt of playing bj last nite. I havnt had that in a while.
The Dawg says: "Just play baccarat and you won't have a problem."
Is it possible to lie low? Don't win too much? Shorten your session if you're winning?
Quote: WellbushIt seems from a number of posts I've read on gambling forums, that a winning gambler needs to be careful about how much he wins, lest he get the back off protocol from the casinos. The question is, when will the casinos implement that protocol? After the gambler stays ahead for two hours, or more? After he wins a large amount of money? How large is too large?
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The Dawg says: "Just play baccarat and you won't have a problem."
Is it possible to lie low? Don't win too much? Shorten your session if you're winning?
Gambler or card counter? I dont think a gambler has to worry.
They will analyze big winners for card counting. But if your a big gambler, they'd probably give you a host and comps.
One doesn't have worry about things that don't/won't happen.Quote: WellbushIt seems from a number of posts I've read on gambling forums, that a winning gambler needs to be careful about how much he wins, lest he get the back off protocol from the casinos. The question is, when will the casinos implement that protocol? After the gambler stays ahead for two hours, or more? After he wins a large amount of money? How large is too large?
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The Dawg says: "Just play baccarat and you won't have a problem."
Is it possible to lie low? Don't win too much? Shorten your session if you're winning?
Quote: jjjooogggAfter i cashed a few grand, A kid followed me to the parking garage. He literally looked left and right. When he saw too many people were around, he walked back to the elevator.
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I noticed a suit staring at me from maybe 50 ft away. I think he was wondering whether to back me off. Its seems unusual to lock onto someone far away.
An avg dressed man put his hand on the chair next to me. I cashed out. I think he was about to back off me.
my bad... this just sounded so far fetched i didnt mean to doubt it
gambler. So, in your case, as you mentioned you were worried you may be asked to back off, you're a card counter. Correct?Quote: jjjooogggGambler or card counter? I dont think a gambler has to worry.
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They will analyze big winners for card counting. But if your a big gambler, they'd probably give you a host and comps.
Quote: Wellbushgambler. So, in your case, as you mentioned you were worried you may be asked to back off, you're a card counter. Correct?link to original postQuote: jjjooogggGambler or card counter? I dont think a gambler has to worry.
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They will analyze big winners for card counting. But if your a big gambler, they'd probably give you a host and comps.
Correct, Im a card counter.
kewlj wrote on GF I think it was, that knowing when to back off comes down to experience and feel. Generate too much heat, you self back off. Do you agree?Quote: jjjooogggCorrect, Im a card counter.
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Quote: jjjooogggQuote: Wellbushgambler. So, in your case, as you mentioned you were worried you may be asked to back off, you're a card counter. Correct?link to original postQuote: jjjooogggGambler or card counter? I dont think a gambler has to worry.
link to original post
They will analyze big winners for card counting. But if your a big gambler, they'd probably give you a host and comps.
Correct, Im a card counter.link to original post
Are you a successful card counter? Do you have basic strategy down pat? How many indices do you normally use?
Quote: Wellbushkewlj wrote on GF I think it was, that knowing when to back off comes down to experience and feel. Generate too much heat, you self back off. Do you agree?link to original postQuote: jjjooogggCorrect, Im a card counter.
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The circumstance such as number of decks, busy or few ppl will affect the duration of play. But some put a universal cap on the duration.
Quote: billryanQuote: jjjooogggQuote: Wellbushgambler. So, in your case, as you mentioned you were worried you may be asked to back off, you're a card counter. Correct?link to original postQuote: jjjooogggGambler or card counter? I dont think a gambler has to worry.
link to original post
They will analyze big winners for card counting. But if your a big gambler, they'd probably give you a host and comps.
Correct, Im a card counter.link to original post
Are you a successful card counter? Do you have basic strategy down pat? How many indices do you normally use?link to original post
I have succeeded at card counting with 180 days of play. I havnt played but only a week in the past 6 years due to my occupation and location. I do basic strategy perfectly. I use the illustrious 18 and a few more.
Quote: jjjooogggQuote: billryanQuote: jjjooogggQuote: Wellbushgambler. So, in your case, as you mentioned you were worried you may be asked to back off, you're a card counter. Correct?link to original postQuote: jjjooogggGambler or card counter? I dont think a gambler has to worry.
link to original post
They will analyze big winners for card counting. But if your a big gambler, they'd probably give you a host and comps.
Correct, Im a card counter.link to original post
Are you a successful card counter? Do you have basic strategy down pat? How many indices do you normally use?link to original post
I have succeeded at card counting with 180 days of play. I havnt played but only a week in the past 6 years due to my occupation and location. I do basic strategy perfectly. I use the illustrious 18 and a few more.link to original post
I usually used four, sometimes six.
Quote: WellbushIt seems from a number of posts I've read on gambling forums, that a winning gambler needs to be careful about how much he wins, lest he get the back off protocol from the casinos. The question is, when will the casinos implement that protocol?
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They publish their earnings as a shareholder report every 6 months.
The smallest number I see on the report is $0.1 million.
If you're not winning $50,000 every six months, your action is barely a rounding error.
I think the people watching you in a public place were perhaps thinking about something else.
That's interesting, and thankyou. Whilst at the tables, I can't help but notice the amount of cash hitting the tables and going straight down the dealer's tube! It would be an incredible amount. I don't recall many people whose chip count was increasing. what does that say about the situation? a lot of money going one way fast, and it's not to the players. They need some way to pay off the Dawg 😀Quote: DieterThey publish their earnings as a shareholder report every 6 months.
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The smallest number I see on the report is $0.1 million.
If you're not winning $50,000 every six months, your action is barely a rounding error.
I think the people watching you in a public place were perhaps thinking about something else.
I got talking one time about the situation. I mentioned basic strategy. the dealer didn't know what it was! the pit boss was nearby and she asked him if he knew about basic strategy? a quick terse reply: "no!" i told the dealer i found it very hard to believe the pit boss didn't know about basic strategy.Quote: billryanThe biggest threat to a counter is a newly appointed pitboss who wants to impress his superiors.
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later, i was still playing, as i play for a considerable amount of time, relatively to other players. i noticed the pit boss out of the corner of my eye. all of a sudden he turns swiftly around and stares at me. i gather this is just part of the paranoia of some casino staff, just because i mentioned basic strategy and was talking about gambling, and playing for a decent amount of time.
Quote: WellbushThat's interesting, and thankyou. Whilst at the tables, I can't help but notice the amount of cash hitting the tables and going straight down the dealer's tube! It would be an incredible amount.
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Possibly of interest:
https://www.crownresorts.com.au/Investors-Media/Financial-Results
Highlights: Perth table games revenue for year ending 30 June 2021 $171.7 million
thanks dieter. you know there's recently been a storm in the media about Crown. you may have heard of Kerry Packer. he was a very wealthy media tycoon here in australia (the richest man in australia) and he had a penchant for gambling. he is well known in some gambling circles still, in the US. he used to go to the US before gambling made its mark in Australia. US$300,000 a hand on some days! all cash bundles! apparently he was the biggest gambler in the US at the time. and he tipped seriously. some dealers were tipped houses, i believe!Quote: DieterPossibly of interest:
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https://www.crownresorts.com.au/Investors-Media/Financial-Results
Highlights: Perth table games revenue for year ending 30 June 2021 $171.7 million
anyway, getting back to Crown, Kerry Packer left a considerable estate to his two children - his son and daughter. his son, james packer, created Crown Casinos in Australia and he also partnered with a chinese tycoon in Macau. he's recently pulled out of his gambling ventures and just runs the resorts side of things.
so where am i going with this? well, you mentioned Crown Perth profits on the table games. recently there have been reports from investigations into Crown, that they were seriously bleeding money from their poker machines in Perth. what the investigation uncovered is that the machines were then adjusted to make them run faster, to stop the money bleeding. unfortunately, the government casino regulator here allowed the increased speed of the games without considering the effect on the potential addicts. needless to say the addicts/community missed out big time. the investigation is currently ongoing and it's certainly shaken Crown up, and the government regulator.
The same kind of investigation upended the scene for Crown Melbourne. Crown Melbourne lost a lot of reputation and were exposed big time for supporting Asian crime gangs. At least things have come to light. that's one good thing.
I know there was an order to cease most VIP enticements, which were likely supporting the operation.
(My recent awareness of triad activities is mostly limited to "Did the restaurant get a delivery of the good seafood today?", so I'm a bit out of touch.)
i don't know what Vancouver model ML is, but the essence i believe, was junkets being employed and money laundering.Quote: DieterWere there more inquiries into triad affiliation beyond the Vancouver model money laundering scheme?
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I know there was an order to cease most VIP enticements, which were likely supporting the operation.
(My recent awareness of triad activities is mostly limited to "Did the restaurant get a delivery of the good seafood today?", so I'm a bit out of touch.)
in Macau, some staff lost their jobs and may even have had to spend some time in jail! not a very good reputation for Crown to have done to their employees, that's for sure. the employees were just following their job description!
