Thread Rating:

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
May 26th, 2012 at 11:38:43 AM permalink
Two games I have been asked about for years, that I have been unable to analyze myself, are Klondike solitaire and Lunar Poker. I don't claim to have even started trying to analyze either of them, but the website of TCS John Huxley claims Lunar Poker has been done, with a house edge of 2.31%. This was enough to at least address the game on my site, although I would prefer to have something numbers of my own to show.

For those who don't know, Lunar Poker is based on Caribbean Stud, but the player has a whole host of additional options, including:

1. Buy a sixth card.
2. Discard and draw 1 to 5 cards.
3. Force the dealer to draw a card.
4. Take insurance against the dealer not qualifying.

For more information, please check out my new page (see link above). I welcome comments and questions.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
pacomartin
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
May 26th, 2012 at 12:14:54 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Two games I have been asked about for years, that I have been unable to analyze myself, are Klondike solitaire and Lunar Poker.



The website claims that "With over 250 billion possible combinations and outcomes, it is impossible to play a perfect strategy."
Can you attach a counter to your analysis of single deck blackjack and see how many possible combinations there are in that game. Ditto for infinite deck.

I would be curious how 250 billion compares to blackjack. I imagine that the "split/not to split" option is responsible for a large percentage.

It would at least be an interesting point to make rather than just saying the analysis is difficult.
AceTwo
AceTwo
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 359
Joined: Mar 13, 2012
May 31st, 2012 at 1:48:13 PM permalink
There are and have been many variants of Carribean stud like oasis and other similar variants in Russia , Eastern Europe and other countries.
Some of them even have positive Evs playing on your own.
Some allow for a player to play 2 boxes and the 2nd box is positive Ev. The procedure is the player picks up the first hand and plays it and then plays the 2nd hand, so for the 2nd hand there are extra information.
Some allow or tolerate people exchanging information, some do not but players still exchange information.
In most variants you get into positive territory if you know the hands of another 2 persons.
There are people who have analysed such games to extremes and produced strategies both for knowing your own hand and knowing additional hands with different strategies depending on the number of hands that are known. The strategies range from simpler to more difficult depending on the dedication someone wants to have. These strategies though are not public knoweledge and cannot be found online except from the very simple ones.

Regarding Russian Poker or Lunar Poker as reffered here, there are strategies devised for the game. From what I know the strategies are quite complicated. But the do produce positive Evs if information of other persons hands are known.
Compared to the range of Carribean and Oasis poker strategies, the Russian poker strategies are quite complicated and very few people would be willing to learn them.
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
June 6th, 2012 at 8:47:08 PM permalink
Hello!

Yes, this poker game with the right positive for the player. I have the software equipment for analize
CharlieGamer
CharlieGamer
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 6
Joined: Aug 17, 2012
August 17th, 2012 at 5:04:48 PM permalink
Hi,

I have a question regarding the rules (as published by TCS John Huxley). It is regarding the formation of the second hand (rules 9.x).

Supposing a player has the following 6 card hand:

AcAdKhQsJcTc

If we consider rules 9.2, 9.3 then he can make two straights:

AcKhQsJcTc, AdKhQsJcTc

Rule 9.2 stands as each straight uses different cards.

Is that correct or the second combination must be inferior in value to the first (it is never mentioned in the rules)?
jopke
jopke
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 132
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
August 26th, 2012 at 12:16:22 PM permalink
Stephen How analyzed it on his site and published a basic strategy that simulates at only a 0.71% house advantage.
stephenhow
stephenhow
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 26, 2012
August 26th, 2012 at 4:24:01 PM permalink
Charlie,

I interpreted the rules (in general, not the specific wording if 9.2, 9.3) to mean that you need to make another straight of a different rank to get a 2nd payout on the Raise bet.

If I change my code to pay a 2nd straight of the same rank, my basic strategy goes from -0.71% to +2.5%.

Also, there are some simple collusion strategies that are significantly +EV. Now that the game is here in Southern CA, we'll see if anyone tries them.

Steve
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 26th, 2012 at 6:03:07 PM permalink
Bravo! Leave to Stephen to analyze one of the toughest games out there. This one is like Mount Everest of casino game analysis. I just added links all over my Lunar Poker page. Congratulations Steve!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
August 26th, 2012 at 6:05:59 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
jopke
jopke
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 132
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
August 27th, 2012 at 8:04:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Bravo! Leave to Stephen to analyze one of the toughest games out there. This one is like Mount Everest of casino game analysis. I just added links all over my Lunar Poker page. Congratulations Steve!



If you didn't notice, he also posted a 2 person collusion strategy that is actually 0.37% +EV.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
August 27th, 2012 at 8:55:37 PM permalink
I got a poker game I don't think can be figured out with anything less than a super computer. Not even sure then.
PM for details. Not patented yet.
Or if you are a mathematician willing to risk your sanity !!
Paradigm
Paradigm
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 2226
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
August 27th, 2012 at 10:02:35 PM permalink
Quote: jopke

If you didn't notice, he also posted a 2 person collusion strategy that is actually 0.37% +EV.



I really don't know the answer to this, but is +0.37 EV worth pursuing as an AP?

I guess it would depend on the rate of play, but this game doesn't seem like it would go very fast as players make their decisions to take extra cards, make the dealer draw, etc. Let's assume that despite all that, you still got 50 hands per hour.

Does +0.37EV mean if you bet $1000 per hand on average and ran $50,000 through the game, you would earn (on average) $185/hour. That doesn't seem like enought to cover the potential variance and you would stick out like crazy betting $1000 per hand, right?

What % +EV makes sense for AP's to really go after?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 27th, 2012 at 10:27:40 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

I got a poker game I don't think can be figured out with anything less than a super computer.



I'll pass. I think getting to the moon, in terms of game analysis, is to crack Klondike Solitaire.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 327
  • Posts: 9625
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
August 28th, 2012 at 12:22:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Bravo! Leave to Stephen to analyze one of the toughest games out there. This one is like Mount Everest of casino game analysis. I just added links all over my Lunar Poker page. Congratulations Steve!



note that Huxley has concluded 2.31 HE and How has it at .71 HE.

it sounds like How has simulated the play using his strategy with a computer program to back up his claim, with this statement in his article:

Quote:

I worked out a simple strategy for the game that simulates at a 0.71% house edge.

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
jopke
jopke
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 132
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
August 29th, 2012 at 12:50:15 PM permalink
This isn't a strategy and AP is going to use to hit the game. It is something that two people who want to play the game anyway can easily do and have an edge.

The % EV for a game is only part of the equation for whether an AP would play it. # of hands per hour, difficulty in strategy, consistency with information, game selection, heat, etc are all important.

In this particular case, the 2 person collusion strategy is more for people just looking to have fun, not earn piles of cash. If you had that same edge on a VP machine, people would be there hitting buttons for hours since you can get so many hands in per hour.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
August 29th, 2012 at 3:02:54 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'll pass. I think getting to the moon, in terms of game analysis, is to crack Klondike Solitaire.




Maybe I will catch math extremist, crystal math or switch in a weak moment. not about to break mustang sally's heart .
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
August 30th, 2012 at 12:36:51 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

note that Huxley has concluded 2.31 HE and How has it at .71 HE.

it sounds like How has simulated the play using his strategy with a computer program to back up his claim, with this statement in his article:



Yeah, someone is wrong. My guess would be whoever did the original math for TCS John Huxley. Stephen has great stuff on his site.
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
August 30th, 2012 at 1:28:18 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'll pass. I think getting to the moon, in terms of game analysis, is to crack Klondike Solitaire.

Klondike is far tougher than getting to the moon. I believe it is NP-Complete.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
24Bingo
24Bingo
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1348
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
August 30th, 2012 at 4:57:06 PM permalink
...pretty sure that doesn't mean what you think it means. For a fixed 52-card deck, it doesn't matter if it's NP-complete.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
August 30th, 2012 at 5:19:32 PM permalink
If forced to choose between Stephen Howe and a source with no attribution, I will pick Stephen. I think John Huxley's figure was based on a simulation of an inferior strategy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
August 30th, 2012 at 9:44:31 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

If forced to choose between Stephen Howe and a source with no attribution, I will pick Stephen. I think John Huxley's figure was based on a simulation of an inferior strategy.



I'm curious how the game can have so many installations if the potential for a positive player edge exists. Did the casinos that installed the game do so relying on bad data? I suppose that, like 100.03% payback video poker, imperfect play makes up for sharps.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
August 30th, 2012 at 11:30:01 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I'm curious how the game can have so many installations if the potential for a positive player edge exists. Did the casinos that installed the game do so relying on bad data? I suppose that, like 100.03% payback video poker, imperfect play makes up for sharps.



This game is more complex than any other casino game before it. Uninformed players to the game probably give up ~10% or more. Assuming Stephen's numbers/strategy are correct, the person that TCS John Huxley hired lost 1.6% by saying an inferior strategy was optimal. If the guy you're paying a significant amount of money gets the math wrong by that much, how much is "Joe Blow", who has not been told anything about strategy, going to misplay the game? See "Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em" or "Texas Hold 'Em Bonus" for more examples of this. Also, Stephen says this game is still -EV unless you collude with someone.
jopke
jopke
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 132
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
August 31st, 2012 at 11:00:08 AM permalink
Stephen updated his strategy and has it down to -.57% with the 2 player collusion up to +.80%
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
August 31st, 2012 at 11:44:05 AM permalink
Quote: jopke

If you didn't notice, he also posted a 2 person collusion strategy that is actually 0.37% +EV.



Especially if one of them is the DEALER !!
stephenhow
stephenhow
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 4
Joined: Feb 26, 2012
September 2nd, 2012 at 6:03:53 PM permalink
Argh ... I found out that the rules make you forfeit the Ante payout when you decide to Force the dealer to qualify. The first night I played the game, they always paid my Ante when the dealer didn't qualify. The second time I played, the day shift supervisor told me the Ante doesn't pay when you decide to Force. I got really irate, because it didn't sound right. This makes Forcing very expensive (it really costs 2x once you count the forfeited Ante payout). But, after a few re-readings of the TCS Huxley Rules and Procedures, it seems like that's actually the case. I think.

Anyways, I had a straight, and the dealer didn't qualify. I didn't know if I should pay for the Force for my 4:1 payout. I figured it was bad, so I just took my Ante payout and stormed off. It turns out that it's pretty close ... if I had 2 of the dealer pair outs, then I shouldn't Force.

I also noticed they do pay for two straights (4:1 + 4:1) if you have a paired card in your straight. Given the expensive Force rule, this is probably the correct interpretation of the 2nd payout rule. (Actually, some dealers will pay 3 hands from the paytable, and they'll find hands you don't even have.)

However, they absolutely get the Insurance rule wrong. They won't pay the Ante if you take insurance!!! They're probably conflating the Force rule with the Insurance rule, but since everyone is confused, it's just easier not to take insurance. EV-wise, you should only rarely take Insurance. But if you make a huge hand, and you want to guarantee a win, then it's going to cost you an additional Ante at Pechanga :(

So, I think I have the right interpretation of the rules now. I've updated my Lunar Poker post
with the updated strategy and simulated house edge of 2.02%.

You'll have to collude 4 ways to get +EV on the game. I'm working on the strategy, and will probably post it. It mostly relies on copies of the upcard seen by the players. You stand pat and call anything when the dealer upcard is dead. Also, collusion helps you hold the right high card when drawing 4 cards. Plus, you can get an idea on when to stand pat on an under pair. I'll keep everyone updated.

Well, a 2.02% house edge is a lot closer to the 2.31% TCS Huxley claim. We might be on the same page at this point :)
tringlomane
tringlomane
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6281
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
September 2nd, 2012 at 8:13:03 PM permalink
Bummer about the stronger rule enforcement in the new session, Stephen, as errors in your favor are always a good thing for EV. :) It also sounds like it's a game that is ripe for dealer errors to occur.

I really appreciate all that you have put into your site; keep up the great work! :)
jopke
jopke
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 132
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
October 24th, 2012 at 4:51:03 PM permalink
Does anyone know where Lunar is being offered currently?

Pechanga has pulled the game. I know Cache Creek in Sacramento has it and I've heard River City in St Louis has it.

I called the number at TCS John Huxley but they didn't have any information and I can't find a number for Mara Enterprises, Ltd.

This game is a ton of fun and I'd love to know if it has been spotted anywhere else!
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
October 24th, 2012 at 5:02:17 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

For those who don't know, Lunar Poker is based on Caribbean Stud, but the player has a whole host of additional options, including:

1. Buy a sixth card.
2. Discard and draw 1 to 5 cards.
3. Force the dealer to draw a card.
4. Take insurance against the dealer not qualifying.

My variant named Cameltoe Poker is a lot easier.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
November 20th, 2012 at 8:00:57 PM permalink
Hi guys!

I apologize for my English. I write through the online translator.

But I think you're wrong in the calculations

At full rules of games:
- The exchange of 1 to 5, or 6 card
- Double Combination with five or six cards (double straights and the rest)
- insurance
- Buy Games
- Payments to bet without antes

On one box for players ~ -0,6%
collusion of two players ~ +2%

even if sometimes visible card the second box, the advantage is very easy to get...

playing well for 3-4 boxes, very easy to ruin a casino...
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
November 27th, 2012 at 10:18:05 AM permalink
this post has been deleted by the author
Last edited by: Dobrij on Sep 10, 2020
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
December 1st, 2012 at 9:22:36 AM permalink
I saw LUNAR POKER on my travels across the West. For the life of me I can't remember where it was; I think maybe Downstream in Oklahoma?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
December 1st, 2012 at 9:56:50 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
December 1st, 2012 at 11:01:56 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Casino Queen.

No, that wasn't it, it was one of the places I went to on this drive, so it was either Downstream, Hard Rock Tulsa or Santa Ana Star.

I actually drove right by Casino Queen but didn't go in.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
December 5th, 2012 at 10:54:29 AM permalink
Russian Poker is in the countries: Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Russia, Kazahtan, Moldova ..
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
November 22nd, 2013 at 7:25:08 PM permalink
this post has been deleted by the author
Last edited by: Dobrij on Sep 10, 2020
tatsum5
tatsum5
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1
Joined: Dec 11, 2013
December 11th, 2013 at 3:40:45 PM permalink
Hi Dobrij,

In the casinos around me in eastern Europe, 4 players can exchange the information of the cards each other without heat. However, the payout of the one pair and straight is 5 to 1 and not 8 to 1. How much is the player advantage of your three step strategy in this case ?

I know that we may have some advantage by colluding in Russian Poker but the 9.7% player edge is too much surprising for me.
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
December 26th, 2013 at 4:37:47 AM permalink
this post has been deleted by the author
Last edited by: Dobrij on Sep 10, 2020
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
February 5th, 2014 at 5:32:41 PM permalink
this post has been deleted by the author
Last edited by: Dobrij on Sep 10, 2020
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
  • Threads: 22
  • Posts: 1264
Joined: Feb 19, 2012
February 6th, 2014 at 12:20:41 PM permalink
This thread caught the attention of Dr. Jacobson

Lunar Poker on AP Heat
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
February 6th, 2014 at 12:29:38 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Slavian
Slavian
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1
Joined: Apr 10, 2014
April 10th, 2014 at 5:47:58 AM permalink
Hello,

Do you have a link or page for a correct collusion strategy?

Thanks
Dobrij
Dobrij
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 221
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 8:21:47 AM permalink
Quote: Slavian

Hello,

Do you have a link or page for a correct collusion strategy?

Thanks



Hi! I answered you in a private message.

A free information that has helped to make money, online does not exist... :
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 9:15:04 AM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

A free information that has helped to make money, online does not exist... :

Eh hem.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 10:24:10 AM permalink
I don't know anything about lunar poker and if its worth while or not if it is 1.8 to 9% indeed this would be incredible unless im missing something. I originally dismissed what this guy said as it sounded like spam.

What I would like to say to DobiJ and others interested in AP or talking about AP. If you know about legitimately good things. You should be more discreet About it. Try a different method. Do Some research on who is and who isn't a RAT contact people Via PM. I have a feeling if this was a real deal you would have done far better and it would have lasted far longer this way. ( I'm not just talking about this specific game I have no clue about this specific game)

Why people feel compelled to openly and specifically talk about current or viable AP plays, I have no clue.

Its one thing talking about games that are long gone or plays of the past. Even talking about past plays can hurt, I'm guilty of this as well, but I really pick and choose and think how it may affect future plays.

I really think its bad when people start talking about how to best exploit plays. I have seen huge change in some loss rebates now. One place has now made a specific loss rebate rule, they now wont let you play $100 slots. the number one thing casinos want you to play. I would be willing to bet the casino didn't figure this out themselves. Most Dark-siders consultants didn't think of this either. Seriously, can you think of any promotion they didn't want you to play a $100 slot machine? I can only think of a few, only after they got hit hard, and it was blatantly obvious.

The casinos only needed to have someone read a few forums to figure this stuff out.... because of us. Isn't that what just happened with this thread? Consultant reads forum then posts that information. If we keep posting and giving away free information there wont be any advantage plays to talk about. Casinos are wasting their money hiring an AP game protection person. It's a TOTAL WAST OF MONEY.

WTF are some of you guys thinking? Dark-side consultants and rats can't possibly figure all thees things out by themselves. They use forums and AP friends/rats as a source of information, then sell that info to the casinos or use it as a fear mongering tactic in order to tout themselves and there services , turning on the business they failed.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
April 10th, 2014 at 11:27:07 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I don't know anything about lunar poker and if its worth while or not if it is 1.8 to 9% indeed this would be incredible unless im missing something. I originally dismissed what this guy said as it sounded like spam.

What I would like to say to DobiJ and others interested in AP or talking about AP. If you know about legitimately good things. You should be more discreet About it. Try a different method. Do Some research on who is and who isn't a RAT contact people Via PM. I have a feeling if this was a real deal you would have done far better and it would have lasted far longer this way. ( I'm not just talking about this specific game I have no clue about this specific game)

Why people feel compelled to openly and specifically talk about current or viable AP plays, I have no clue.

Its one thing talking about games that are long gone or plays of the past. Even talking about past plays can hurt, I'm guilty of this as well, but I really pick and choose and think how it may affect future plays.

I really think its bad when people start talking about how to best exploit plays. I have seen huge change in some loss rebates now. One place has now made a specific loss rebate rule, they now wont let you play $100 slots. the number one thing casinos want you to play. I would be willing to bet the casino didn't figure this out themselves. Most Dark-siders consultants didn't think of this either. Seriously, can you think of any promotion they didn't want you to play a $100 slot machine? I can only think of a few, only after they got hit hard, and it was blatantly obvious.

The casinos only needed to have someone read a few forums to figure this stuff out.... because of us. Isn't that what just happened with this thread? Consultant reads forum then posts that information. If we keep posting and giving away free information there wont be any advantage plays to talk about.


The casinos and manufacturers will say "and what exactly is wrong with that?"
Quote: AxelWolf

Casinos are wasting their money hiring an AP game protection person. It's a TOTAL WAST OF MONEY.


1. if it saves them from losses (and examples abound of dodging a bullet), then casinos may feel it is money or effort well spent.
2. Casinos and gaming manufacturers, like all other legitimate businesses, spent their money as they see fit, and this would include loss prevention areas.

Quote: AxelWolf

WTF are some of you guys thinking? Dark-side consultants and rats can't possibly figure all thees things out by themselves. They use forums and AP friends/rats as a source of information, then sell that info to the casinos or use it as a fear mongering tactic in order to tout themselves and there services , turning on the business they failed.


1. We figure a lot out by ourselves. A later change to casino poker games involves dispensing community board cards and dealer hand cards only when they are needed at that point in play, to prevent AP hole-carding and edge-sorting.
2. It is better to have game protection advancement in place than to have back offs, 86-ing, poorer pay tables and house edges on games.
3. A lot of AP players change sides and do work for casino operators and manufacturers. This cannot be stopped, and examples abound; people post what they want on forums and on their own gaming sites on both sides of this matter.
4. Some of the game protection notices and advice are posted, appreciated and put into use, for what the operators and manufacturers feel make for better and fairer gaming. Everyone has an opinion, everyone picks a side, and people do feel free to discuss what they wish to discuss on this matter, or on any matter without feeling censored for any reason.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AceTwo
AceTwo
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 359
Joined: Mar 13, 2012
April 10th, 2014 at 11:57:16 AM permalink
I agree with most of what you say Axelwolf.
The things is that game that are played in the US are analysed and discussed in Forums like these. And in any case Casinos in US usually do a lot more homework with new games, promotions etc so it is more difficult to find AP oppurtunities.
The situation elsewhere, especially in smal casinos in smaller countries (or less sophisticated in gaming affairs) is quite difficult.
Big mistakes happen some times and smaller mistakes quite often in new games introduced, or in promotions etc.
Also average gamblers are a lot less sohisticated in such countries (for example except for APs noone plays BS in BJ or even close to it) so the casino has big HE against them, so they can offer much better promotions or introduce games that can be exploited by APs but make so much money from average gamblers that it does not hurt them at all.

I doubt that many (if any) of the casinos from such countries visit English speaking forums like these, BUT just in case I rarely put any specific info on these forums or if I put it would be quite vague.
So some vague info on Russian Poker
In the specific game, basically waht has happened in Russia and other countries about 15-20 years (or maybe more) is that they introduced Carribean Stud. The game was very boring and players did not like it, so they started experimenting with changing the rules.
And came up with games like what is reffered to in WoO as Oasis (other names exist elsewehere) where you draw 1 card, other games where you draw 2 or 3 or 4 cards where you have insurance etc with the ulimiate been Russian Poker. There are and have been many variations of CS.
Some of those could be exploited by APs. But unlike US the strategies to beat these games where never seen on any internet forums, just calculated by some APs and shared with other APs (sometimes for a fee).
These were the days where Russia was free for all, then the casinos in Russia became much better and started banning APs and then casinos completely disappeared from Russia.
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 11:59:10 AM permalink
"After playing Lunar Poker, all other games are essentially dumb and pointless. I actually canít imagine playing anything else. I thought a lot about the loss of Lunar Poker. I havenít felt this empty in a long time." -- Stephen How

http://discountgambling.net/2012/10/19/lunar-poker-removed-from-pechanga/
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
April 10th, 2014 at 12:45:35 PM permalink
Bottom line is loose lips sink ships. I'm with Axel on this, if you are an AP the worst thing you can do is talk about good plays.Why anyone would post all this info for free like Eliot AND Stephen How is a mystery. I can understand doing consulting but to put it out there for free?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
teliot
teliot
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
April 10th, 2014 at 1:02:06 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Bottom line is loose lips sink ships. I'm with Axel on this, if you are an AP the worst thing you can do is talk about good plays.Why anyone would post all this info for free like Eliot AND Stephen How is a mystery. I can understand doing consulting but to put it out there for free?

I will say that neither Stephen nor myself are profit driven.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
April 10th, 2014 at 1:06:32 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

I will say that neither Stephen nor myself are profit driven.


Casinos and manufacturers ARE profit driven, to protect the money for the casinos from AP actions. And I can understand that business model, and both business models that are in conflict.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
  • Jump to: