Dealer Mistakes
Horseshoe has a sign at Pai Gow "House will not re-set hands" Meaning, if the player makes a mistake and fouls a hand, the hand is an automatic loss.
But if the dealer does the same thing, even if it's the hand after I made a mistake, I am supposed to point it out to them and not take the money, even though they did the exact same thing to me last hand?
If I bring a sign with me to the table that says "I will not correct your mistakes", then I suppose it's okay for me not to?
Quote: EvenBobI would never in a hundred years repay a dealer mistake, it would
never even occur to me. The casino not only has the edge, they
want you to police their mistakes for them so you don't get an
edge, even for a minute.
It brings to mind the old saying 'You can't have your cake and eat it
to.' Which means you can't have something both ways. The casino
already has the advantage. When the advantage sometimes goes
to the player because of a dealer mistake, the casino wants us to
give them the advantage in this also, by giving the money back.
Yet they don't let us do the same when we make a mistake. The
dealer often knows full well that a player has just made an error,
yet he doesn't give the money back when the player loses. Why?
Because the casino wants the advantage in all ways on every play.
Try it sometime. Make a mistake and ask if you can get a refund on
your loss. When they get done laughing, they'll tell you the casino
isn't responsible for a players mistakes. Yet they will search you
down if they make one in your favor and insist you repay them.
So no, I will never return money won on a dealer error, its only
fair that I do not.
Could not agree more.
Quote: FinsRuleHorseshoe has a sign at Pai Gow "House will not re-set hands"
So if the dealer doesn't set their hand right, will they also not reset their own? That would be fair, I suppose...
If the gambler is really just after dirty money, after all, and the casino house is upheld to playing by the rules,
then the casino house wins all ethical arguments from square one, we mean: jump street.
The gambler has no basis in ethics, when the casino does - having to follow some rules of fair play, when the gambler announces he does not, and on a world-wide Internet forum to announce all this.
Gotta Love it.
Well, Shit, game over - and you guys said it is so.
Quote: PaigowdanGlad to hear all of this, because it justifies my position of the casino house/gambling hall being the "white hat" after all.
If the gambler is really just after dirty money, after all, and the casino house is upheld to playing by the rules,
then the casino house wins all ethical arguments from square one, we mean: jump street.
The gambler has no basis in ethics, when the casino does - having to follow some rules of fair play, when the gambler announces he does not, and on a world-wide Internet forum to announce all this.
Gotta Love it.
Well, Shit, game over - and you guys said it is so.
Just the other day I saw security personal come down to inform the pit boss of a dealer's mistake that cost a full table of players money. They said the "eye in the sky" caught the error and they wanted to make it right for everyone. They stopped the game and everyone was pleasantly both surprised and impressed.
Oh wait, that was a dream- forget it...
Quote: Paigowdan
If the gambler is really just after dirty money, .
I believe fair is fair. If the casino wants to give me
a refund when I make a mistake, I will gladly point
out when they make one. But if they only want it
one-sided, whats my incentive to play along. I'd
have to be an idiot to do that. Whats good for the
goose is good for the gander. Which means, if you
demand a certain kind of behavior be maintained,
then it should apply to you as well. A player makes
a mistake and he pays for it. The same should go for
the casino.
He says that getting paid if the dealer sets his hand wrong is the same thing as taking a $10 from a cashier when it was supposed to be a $5.
I disagree with that comparison.
I think it's the same thing as an item ringing up for $9.99 when it was on the shelf for $14.99. Is it my responsibility to make sure the barcode scans what it says on the shelf? Why is it my responsibility to know the house's two-pair splitting rules????
of player and dealer mistakes. If you have a situation where
players are supposed to correct dealer mistakes, yet nobody
corrects player mistakes, this gives an even higher advantage
to the house, over and above the built in edge they already
have. Every time a player makes an error, this is money in the
casinos pocket. And every time the casino makes an error, they
want that to be nullified. Sounds like the way my wife thinks
about marriage.
Quote: EvenBobHere's the thing. The house edge manifests itself independent
of player and dealer mistakes. If you have a situation where
players are supposed to correct dealer mistakes, yet nobody
corrects player mistakes, this gives an even higher advantage
to the house, over and above the built in edge they already
have. Every time a player makes an error, this is money in the
casinos pocket. And every time the casino makes an error, they
want that to be nullified. Sounds like the way my wife thinks
about marriage.
I agree. If the casinos were smart(and some are!) they would bend over backward to correct any player-made errors and give a little more when the House makes a mistake. Pit boss should say for example in Pai Gow, "I see the dealer fouled her hand- pay everyone!" Everyone would applaud and be happy- and the casino would generate all sorts of good will- and even selfishly from their perspective- keep the game moving which it's in their best interest to do.
All of the time wasted trying to figure out nickles and dimes and generating hard feelings is stupid. It angers the players and the casinos make less in the long run.
That's the way casinos should be run as it's a win-win for everyone. Before you think I advocate having the casino "give away the store", I'd add that their dealers should be properly trained, too. Everyone's happy and everyone can lighten up at the same time.
Quote: TheBigPaybak
All of the time wasted trying to figure out nickles and dimes and generating hard feelings is stupid.
Back when I used to play Rapid Roulette, sometimes the thing
would screw up and not pay anybody. They would stop the game
and try and determine who won and who lost. Often the total
bet for everybody was under $50. Yet they would hold up the
game for 15min, miss 15 spins, and who knows how much profit
for them, just so they didn't pay some guy five bucks who didn't
really have it coming.
What this does is show the players what the attitude of the casino
is. They're willing to lose money by holding up the game, just to
make sure they don't get screwed out of what amounts to pennies.
Just pay everybody as a winner. The players are happy, the game
goes on, and they're just going to give it back to the casino anyway.
Do you really think that (most) casinos' management and security would go out of their way to correct dealer mistakes that favor the house?
Assuming that dealers make mistakes just as often both ways, if the house corrects the mistakes that favor the players, but not the ones that favor the house, the HE has grown. So my general rule of thumb would be to correct dealers mistakes that favor the house, but not the ones that favor me. If they catch it, I won't put up a fight. Unless I found a property that I knew was doing their best to make sure mistakes that favor the house were corrected as well. In that case, I'd correct all mistakes I caught (as I do in poker games with my friends, and such. In that case, I won't take a mistake in my favor, because I'm pretty certain the other players wouldn't, either.) I just don't think I'd find that.
My first time in a casino, I'm pretty sure I was either cheated, or the dealer made a mistake in taking my bet. I didn't know any better, so I didn't think about it, but I guess knowing it now I would have tried to correct it.
Quote: rainmanI'll start correcting dealer mistakes when I start receiving a pay check from the casino.
You want a paycheck in addition to that FREE money they send you every month. Talk about GREEDY.
ANY disputed wager, even a $5 at the plop table, gets run back. If recreating the hand isn't possible due to sloppy retrieval, we go to the tape.
The interesting thing is that I've found that overpayment to patrons outrank underpayments almost 7:1. This isn't a selective memory thing, nor is it overlooking an under payment because it's "good for the house", it an actual number from all the internal control standards incidents I've personally done and reviewed. Perhaps dealers, when unsure, tend to overpay patrons. I assume that a dealer knows a patron will notice an underpay immediately and make a fuss on the spot, while an overpay only has a CHANCE of being noticed in auditing, and they err on the side with the least chance of catching heat.
In any case, it made me think. Maybe the reason we so rarely see patrons being returned money is because that incident actually happens much less frequently.
Quote: Face
In any case, it made me think. Maybe the reason we so rarely see patrons being returned money is because that incident actually happens much less frequently.
You're talking about a dealer mistake. I'm talking about a player
making a betting error and getting a refund. As soon as that starts
happening, I'll start pointing out dealer errors.
I also want to add this: If there is a dealer error there are 2 factors on how I settle it (example the dealer did not see her blackjack, I can either collect the money anyway or at my discretion give everyone a pass and move on to the next had) .
1) How much money is in the tip box- If the players are being cheap they are not getting any breaks.
2) How friendly the players are- Rude, obnoxious, and mean players do not get any breaks either.
So be a nice player and help the dealer pay their rent and buy food. Betting $1 for the dealer 5 times is much more appreciated than handing $5 after your session.
Quote: NicksGamingStuff
1) How much money is in the tip box- If the players are being cheap they are not getting any breaks.
I'd like PaiGowDan to respond to this. A casino employee clearly states that tipping behavior will affect whether a patron gets taken care of in regards to being paid when an error has been pointed out. So you still say the casino is ethical and the patrons not?
Quote: EvenBobYou're talking about a dealer mistake. I'm talking about a player
making a betting error and getting a refund. As soon as that starts
happening, I'll start pointing out dealer errors.
True. I can't say I can dispute your claims, but I've also never had it reported. I imagine issues like that are handled directly by Table Games and they don't bother us. Likewise, there'd be no way for us to visually determine an issue like that.
However, I do know this happens on slots. I remember this because I thought it was kind of stupid. Patrons are constantly saying they "didn't mean to bet max" or "they didn't realize the denom of the machine" and they get their wager back. That's all well and good, and I think, on the surface, that it's good customer service by giving it back. But I wonder how this could be abused. Why not run $100 through a $5 machine once every two months, and just claim you thought it was $0.05 and ask for your money back?
Interesting strategy. I remember once at the very beginning of my video poker career, I was playing at Trump Plaza with a friend. I told him I was going to show him how to play video poker for a bit. I was happy to find a 9/6 Jacks machine, so I put in $20 and hit deal. Oddly, it only let me bet four credits. I wasn't sure why, but I was dealt two pair. I now had 8 credits. Okay...I played another hand, and got a three of a kind. I now had 16 credits. Finally, I figured it out. I was playing a $5 machine! I cashed out the $80, and we went and got sushi at the Trump with my winnings.Quote: FaceBut I wonder how this could be abused. Why not run $100 through a $5 machine once every two months, and just claim you thought it was $0.05 and ask for your money back?
I laid my bet down on the Don't because it was obviously within reach, and then tossed my chips on the table for the other bets:
"Five on the Don't, Ten laying the Four, Ten laying the Ten, Give me Fifteen laying the Five and Fifteen laying the Nine."
I fired off a seven right off the bat, and the dealer raked all of my bets!
Me: How's that? I won every single won of those Lays!
Dealer: You have to Lay for more than that. How am I supposed to come up with 5% of a $5 win, I don't have any quarters, here!
Me: I didn't know, why did you let me make the bet? Besides, it's $30, 5% is one dollar and fifty cents, in this case, just round up to $2 if you want to.
Dealer: I didn't let you do anything. You bought those numbers, you didn't Lay them!
Me: I bought the numbers playing the Wrong Way??? Why would I buy those numbers and play the Don't?
Dealer: I don't question what people do at my table.
Me: This is bull****!!! That's fifty dollars!!! You're really going to steal fifty dollars from me!? Is this casino hard up for cash? It's theft, it's just point-blank G******n theft! I win $30, I don't lose $50, I announced that I was, "Laying," literally, before every single number that I said!
---There was some more colorful discourse on my end of things. The Craps Table guys finally asked the pit boss, or someone, what to do in the situation and she just said to return my bets, call it no bet, so that's what happened.
I guess I will say it was a casino in the greater Kansas City Metropolitan Area that was not Harrah's and leave it at that. I left the table and never went there again. I was actually kind of jacked that I didn't get the $30 that I had actually won on that bet. I never Lay numbers, straight-up, I just back my Don't bet up usually, so it was really disappointing not to get paid on one of the only times I ever tried that...and fired off a seven right off the bat. I guess I would have slightly preferred a six/eight point and a seven later, but it was still really cool.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that the dealer honestly thought that I bought those numbers, and he doesn't want to get in trouble, so I don't fault him. The other two guys at the Craps table didn't say a word to anyone one way or another. He just shouldn't make that kind of a mistake, that's all.
Quote: Mission146I'm not going to identify the casino, but the only MAJOR problem I have ever had with a dealer screw-up is when I announced my bets as follows:
I laid my bet down on the Don't because it was obviously within reach, and then tossed my chips on the table for the other bets:
"Five on the Don't, Ten laying the Four, Ten laying the Ten, Give me Fifteen laying the Five and Fifteen laying the Nine."
I fired off a seven right off the bat, and the dealer raked all of my bets!
Me: How's that? I won every single won of those Lays!
Dealer: You have to Lay for more than that. How am I supposed to come up with 5% of a $5 win, I don't have any quarters, here!
Me: I didn't know, why did you let me make the bet? Besides, it's $30, 5% is one dollar and fifty cents, in this case, just round up to $2 if you want to.
Dealer: I didn't let you do anything. You bought those numbers, you didn't Lay them!
Me: I bought the numbers playing the Wrong Way??? Why would I buy those numbers and play the Don't?
Dealer: I don't question what people do at my table.
Me: This is bull****!!! That's fifty dollars!!! You're really going to steal fifty dollars from me!? Is this casino hard up for cash? It's theft, it's just point-blank G******n theft! I win $30, I don't lose $50, I announced that I was, "Laying," literally, before every single number that I said!
.
If you bought those numbers as he claimed, wouldn't he need to pit a BUY disk on the 4? And the chip position for laying numbers and buying the is different. I don't see how the dealer could have screwed that up.
Quote: SACR
If you bought those numbers as he claimed, wouldn't he need to pit a BUY disk on the 4? And the chip position for laying numbers and buying the is different. I don't see how the dealer could have screwed that up.
Incompetence.
If you really want to call something my fault, though, it was that I didn't know the proper chip positions for the bets. He put the chips on the buys, but I called the lays, as I said, before every single number. I hadn't played a ton of Craps before that, and rarely ever make that bet...and even fewer times prior to that incident...so I didn't know anything about the proper chip positions.
I don't believe he put a BUY disk on the four, though, I certainly would have noticed that.
Quote: SOOPOOI'd like PaiGowDan to respond to this. A casino employee clearly states that tipping behavior will affect whether a patron gets taken care of in regards to being paid when an error has been pointed out. So you still say the casino is ethical and the patrons not?
What I meant is, lets say the dealer has a BJ but does not notice it. I have the option of taking the money (which they would have lost anyway) or giving the players a break and having the players just push for the dealers mistake. If the players are being cheap, their money will be taken by the dealers accidentally unseen blackjack that they would have lost anyway.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffWhat I meant is, lets say the dealer has a BJ but does not notice it. I have the option of taking the money (which they would have lost anyway) or giving the players a break and having the players just push for the dealers mistake. If the players are being cheap, their money will be taken by the dealers accidentally unseen blackjack that they would have lost anyway.
I understood that exactly, Nick. If you care to, you can analyze what you are saying. You are saying that you, a duly authorized representative of the casino, who is charged with keeping the games fair to both the player and the casino, will make a decision that you admit is affected by the tipping pattern of the player. If you don't see the problem with that I can't show it to you. The loudmouth boor wants the same rules applied to him as the overtipping super hottie....
Quote: NicksGamingStuffHere is my take on this: If a cashier at the store gives you too much change, is it right to accept it? Same thing with table games if you are paid improperly you should return the money, that way the game is fair for everyone. When I floor supervise I ensure that both players and the house are being paid properly. One player who was paid improperly said it is not her fault the dealer made a mistake. Since it was over $15 I let it go, but I really wanted to ask her if she would take an overpayment from a cashier. Even the best dealer can make a mistake, I am not saying I am the best, but mistakes I have made are very dumb stuff.
I also want to add this: If there is a dealer error there are 2 factors on how I settle it (example the dealer did not see her blackjack, I can either collect the money anyway or at my discretion give everyone a pass and move on to the next had) .
1) How much money is in the tip box- If the players are being cheap they are not getting any breaks.
2) How friendly the players are- Rude, obnoxious, and mean players do not get any breaks either.
So be a nice player and help the dealer pay their rent and buy food. Betting $1 for the dealer 5 times is much more appreciated than handing $5 after your session.
Thank you for your honesty in letting everyone know that the $5 at the end of play is not appreciated. I know that's not exactly what you said but that's how some will interpret it.
Nick, come to my home, cut my grass and wash my cars. My wife and I will feed you and give you money for food and rent.
True, the casino makes money when dealing, not when shuffling and not when suits come marching over with bad news be it over five dollars or five hundred dollars. And this is true when its "mistakes" or even when its really some one trying to take a shot.Quote: TheBigPaybakAll of the time wasted trying to figure out nickles and dimes and generating hard feelings is stupid. It angers the players and the casinos make less in the long run.
If an error can be speedily corrected fine. If not.... let it go.
All banks have an "overage and under" account, knowing there will be errors. All dealers are human and get bored or get distracted.
One craps dealer forgot the Dont Come and then a seven rolled. It took a brief amount of time for him to set it up properly for the camera and pay it, his teammates sniggered a bit at him, but he corrected it.
Some idiot up in surveillance who catches a mistake can cost the casino a customer, even if the customer realizes it was the casino's error to have paid him.
Glossing over a few errors here and there is a practical, real-world solution and is probably wisest. Getting that flea's five dollars back can cost the casino money. Just continuing to deal the game is a much better way to do it. Now if the amount is staggering then I admit its time for the suits to march up and ruin the player's day.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffHey, tips are always appreciated. As for SOOPOO's comment: In any customer service aspect where a manager as some discretion on how to handle it, the customer who is more pleasant to the employee will be better taken care of. Many people here have probably not worked in customer service, but for those who have they know the nicer, more polite customer is going to be better taken care of. It is what it is.
I live in the real world, and I know what you are saying is true! I just want to hear from Dan on his thoughts... That a casino employee will use tipping as a factor in adjudicating a dispute....
Another thing why do people continually refer to card counters and the act thereof as cheaters and cheating? This issue has been addressed in are court system and deemed legal. So anybody misrepresenting the legality of this seems to me a dishonest person.
Lastly I would like to address this notion that casinos are righteous and only have good intent. In another thread they were discussing staff telling customers to not look at a whale playing or they would be ejected. So because this whale is spending more money than me I'm supposed to turn my head and not directly look at the messiah or they will kick me out? I definitely would have stared the guy down in defiance.
Alcohol anyone? Every one knows that in the early days of vegas the practice of serving free liquor was done to inhibit the players self control. this practice continues today for the same purpose. Do you think the rewards system is in place to thank you for your play? lol Or do you think its there to dangle carrots in your face to induce you to play more? yep i see alot of integrity in them casinos lol
Quote: rainmanAlcohol anyone? Every one knows that in the early days of vegas the practice of serving free liquor was done to inhibit the players self control. this practice continues today for the same purpose. Do you think the rewards system is in place to thank you for your play? lol Or do you think its there to dangle carrots in your face to induce you to play more? yep i see alot of integrity in them casinos lol
You know what, I would much rather have the casino serve me free booze than to have to pay for it. And, I prefer the people who serve me to be doing it based on their own self interest rather than altruism. Consider the situation where you have to be at the airport at 5:00 am. Your brother in law offers to drive you for free, or you can take a cab. Who is more likely to show up on time, the selfish cabbie, or your hypothetical brother in law who certainly loves you, but also hasn't held a job for more than 6 months....
It is immature to expect strangers to do wonderful things for us out of the goodness of their hearts. Expecting self interested actors to serve us is much more grown up and realistic. Imagine the farmer in Nebraska who raises beef cows and produces great steaks that end up being eaten by wall street big shots in the finest steak houses in New York. The farmer gets up before dawn every day to take care of his livestock so that these bankers can eat steak and he can make a living. Imagine if we had to rely on his love for New Yorkers and bankers to get him up at 4:00am every day....
The same is true for casinos. If they want to give you free booze, consider why they are doing it but say thanks and take it. To say they lack integrity because they are trying to make money and giving away gifts in the meanwhile shows that one's moral compass is a bit off.
Anytime someone requests something from me, I simply tell them to write their request on a $20 bill and hand it to me, and I'll be sure it gets done.Quote: IbeatyouracesExactly what I say. Almost EVERY job is some form of customer service. Could you imagine if you were expected to tip everyone that performed a "service" for you? Just think of all the people you'd have to pay extra to that helped build your automobile.
Quote: Boney526PaiGowDan, I know what your position is (ethically) but here's what I'd ask.
Do you really think that (most) casinos' management and security would go out of their way to correct dealer mistakes that favor the house?
Yes, absolutely, and we do it ALL time! - I will give some examples below...
Quote: Boney526Assuming that dealers make mistakes just as often both ways, if the house corrects the mistakes that favor the players, but not the ones that favor the house, the HE has grown. So my general rule of thumb would be to correct dealers mistakes that favor the house, but not the ones that favor me. If they catch it, I won't put up a fight. Unless I found a property that I knew was doing their best to make sure mistakes that favor the house were corrected as well. In that case, I'd correct all mistakes I caught (as I do in poker games with my friends, and such. In that case, I won't take a mistake in my favor, because I'm pretty certain the other players wouldn't, either.) I just don't think I'd find that.
My first time in a casino, I'm pretty sure I was either cheated, or the dealer made a mistake in taking my bet. I didn't know any better, so I didn't think about it, but I guess knowing it now I would have tried to correct it.
Dealers are human, and like clerks, cashiers, and bank tellers, also make mistakes. In terms of deliberate cheating, it is not the case, and the moeny in the rack is not the dealer's money, and his care is to simply carry out the results of the game in a neutral fashion to the best of his ability, and where ability may vary.
Now, for some examples in correcting plays to help the players, which are done all the time:
1. In Pai Gow: the house ways that many casinos use are in some ways weaker in setting than optimal play. Examples of this include setting the hand 6544332 as two pairs together rather than a straight, a weakness of the 'two pair rule.' Obviously, it is better for the dealer to set the hand as 43/65432 than 65/44332, as just about all player two pair hands kept together with a King or ace top will win, as would split up full houses, and as would three of a kinds with even an 8 for the top. Many dealers play Pai Gow Poker very well, and naturally and simply set the hand correctly from natural knowledge, but will always reset it to the weaker house way if a player or floorman points it out, that is, if he doesn't himself. I see this corrected all the time to give the players the win.
2. In Blackjack, a floorman will always say, when seeing a dealer pushing his 18 hand against a player's 19 hand (often A-8), say to the dealer, "pay the player, he won, not pushed." Another example is a player hits a 12 against a 2 and gets a ten card; player claims "I didn't hit here!," - often lying. Quite often it is given to the player to keep the peace and the game moving.
3. In craps, many late bets thrown in but not yet set up are met with players' claims. Player throws in some nickels and says, "Give me a three-way slammy-jammy with a 7 & 7 on the rocks!" - as the dice are flying, just to take a shot. Guaranteed, whatever the dice land as, the player will say "Yes! My Hi-Low/Hopping sixes/C & E/Hopping hard-10" etc., etc., etc., "WON!!! PAY ME!!" Quite often, we give it to the shot taker just not to slow the game down, by calling surveillance to see if the stickman waved off the bet.
I've worked for years in the casino pit, and have NEVER seen a shot taken by a dealer or floorman (like it's our personal money to care about via the cheating of others), but have often seen players often take that position, as if the juice of gambling does NOT stem from the play of the cards or dice, by what kinds of petty theft and shenanigans one can possibly get away with as a 'little score.'
Even otherwise honest people WILL take money that they KNOW they did not legitimately earn via clean and correct play, but will often knowlingly take dirty money, if given the chance, - just like receiving full change for a $20 when paying with a $10 bill at a drive through. And yes, it is exactly the same situation indeed - knowingly receiving and taking wrong money, - when you knew what the right money was. For people to return wrong money at a 7-11, but to take it at a casino, is NO different for the same person to return wrong money at the casino - and take it at the 7-11, when given the opportunity. If you feel these are different circumstances, it is ONLY because you feel that one business is more "legitimate" than the other in your heart, when in reality, they are both equally legitimate business.
Like in the example above, the dealer who paid in green instead of red for a one-off mistake may lose his job, with many players just caring for what they can take by any means possible, and knowing full well it was wrong. Guaranteed, if he had paid red on a green flat bet, noisy outrage would have ensued over that innocent mistake, too.
And you cannot say in one case, "It is the dealer's job to pay correctly' when you either don't say it about the 7-11 cashier, AND when you don't even say it about the dealer - when the mistake pays the dealer instead of you.
If we KNOW it is a wrong transaction, and wrong money, then it does not matter which direction the error went, - aside from our own greed in the matter, which is exactly the issue of ethics here. Casino dealers and floormen spend YEARS witnessing the depravity and bankrupt ethics of some players, and it is often these positions and justifications that we see on Internet forums also. Knowingly sticking your hand out to take money that you know is wrong by the real play of the deal is the issue. I have no grey area on this for me, especially when I play. If I get paid for a full house bonus, when I only had a three of a kind, I return the difference and tell the dealer it goes back into the house rack. And I am rare.
Quite often the dealer is on Auto pilot or spacing out and hits the hand,even when player didn`t give a signal or waived it off. Of course automatically it is assumed the player is taking a shot.Yes some players do take shots but alot of times The players are telling the truth.Most casinos will resolve it in the players favor but with the floor saying make sure you give a clear hand signal,when the player gave a perfectly clear signal but the dealer wasn`t paying attention.
Quote: Hunterhill
Quite often the dealer is on Auto pilot or spacing out and hits the hand,even when player didn`t give a signal or waived it off.
Yes, but being on auto-pilot is not dealer cheating, it is incompetence.
And a player will frequently take no action deliberately on his turn to hit or stand, in order to make a claim.
Quote: HunterhillOf course automatically it is assumed the player is taking a shot.
No, it is not assumed, many players make innocent mistakes, and they are viewed for what they are - innocent mistakes.
Quote: HunterhillYes some players do take shots but alot of times The players are telling the truth.
Yes, we know this, and we separate the wheat from the chaff. SOMETIMES the players are telling the truth, and sometimes they lie.
Quote: HunterhillMost casinos will resolve it in the players favor but with the floor saying make sure you give a clear hand signal,when the player gave a perfectly clear signal but the dealer wasn`t paying attention.
Seldom happens. A clear hand signal is just about always spotted. Certainly, this would be clear to surveillance on review, along with a dealer clearly ignoring this signal for a write up on the dealer's part. What more often happens is the dealer plows through assuming a stand on a 12 against a 2, opening the door to a shot.
Quote: PaigowdanLike in the example above, the dealer who paid in green instead of red for a one-off mistake may lose his job, with many players just caring for what they can take by any means possible, and knowing full well it was wrong. Guaranteed, if he had paid red on a green flat bet, noisy outrage would have ensued over that innocent mistake, too.
And you cannot say in one case, "It is the dealer's job to pay correctly' when you either don't say it about the 7-11 cashier, AND when you don't even say it about the dealer - when the mistake pays the dealer instead of you.
If we KNOW it is a wrong transaction, and wrong money, then it does not matter which direction the error went, - aside from our own greed in the matter, which is exactly the issue of ethics here. Casino dealers and floormen spend YEARS witnessing the depravity and bankrupt ethics of some players, and it is often these positions and justifications that we see on Internet forums also. Knowingly sticking your hand out to take money that you know is wrong by the real play of the deal is the issue. I have no grey area on this for me, especially when I play. If I get paid for a full house bonus, when I only had a three of a kind, I return the difference and tell the dealer it goes back into the house rack. And I am rare.
Ultimately, if dealers and casinos did their jobs correctly, there wouldn't be an issue here.
I've been to casinos where I've never witnessed a mistake and others where they happened frequently: I tend to think it is not the local water supply.
Casinos could solve this problem if they wanted to but they CHOOSE NOT TO. They KNOW a problem exists and somehow, I'M supposed to be responsible for their incompetent behavior? How in the world does that do anything but promote continued incompetence?
Shouldn't I be able to have a few drinks and not have to worry about payouts? Shouldn't players expect a fair game and not have to worry?
The problem with what you propose is that if followed, the number of remaining mistakes tilt greatly into the House's favor- which is not fair. To continue your 7/11 analogy, it's like being occasionally short-changed, realizing it when you get home, and then being unable to go back and prove it. And further, if a cashier was constantly short-changing or over-paying, they would be fired, as they should be. Why shouldn't dealers be fired for the same?
This is ultimately business problem and not an ethics problem. Casinos could solve it, but they choose not to.
Quote: FrGambleI keep thinking that they are going to review the tapes and knock this dealer, who is a nice guy and a good dealer.
Bernie Madoff was always charming, and everyone considered him "a nice guy and a good dealer," too. As a matter of fact, the market, except for a lone soul or two, considered him a genius for reaping huge returns when the rest of the world was tanking.
Thinking back to it, I lost a bet in BJ, and being used to home poker games, went to throw the money to the dealer. (First trip to a casino.) Upon realizing what I was doing I said "sorry, it's my first time playing in a Casino" and nobody made a big deal out of it.
Like I said, if I feel a Casino is not pointing out errors or playing ethically with them, then I will, too.
Quote: rainmanCustomer service is where I get confused. should I tip the tire guy that fixed my flat? How about the girl who bagged my groceries at the store? How about your doctor, lawyer, or butcher. Are these people all not performing a service for me?
Maybe a better question would be: Are all these other people earning a living wage without tips? Where I work our base pay is LESS than minimum wage and only becomes minimum wage if the toke rate isn't high enough to get us to minimum wage.
Quote: rainman
Another thing why do people continually refer to card counters and the act thereof as cheaters and cheating? This issue has been addressed in are court system and deemed legal. So anybody misrepresenting the legality of this seems to me a dishonest person.
I don't know why people do a lot of the things they do. I don't work with anyone that says that about counters. In fact, as far as I know we pay very little attention to if someone is counting. YMMV.
Quote: rainman
Lastly I would like to address this notion that casinos are righteous and only have good intent.
We must live in very different worlds. I, and everyone that I know of in the industry, see it as a business. It's not a charity and I don't think anyone acts like we're there to help anyone pay their bills that month.
Quote: rainmanIn another thread they were discussing staff telling customers to not look at a whale playing or they would be ejected. So because this whale is spending more money than me I'm supposed to turn my head and not directly look at the messiah or they will kick me out? I definitely would have stared the guy down in defiance.
And you would have definitely been ejected where I work. It's a private business, and just like no shirt, no shoes, no service, as a private business they have the right to make those kinds of rules. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. No big deal.
Quote: rainmanDo you think the rewards system is in place to thank you for your play? lol Or do you think its there to dangle carrots in your face to induce you to play more? yep i see alot of integrity in them casinos lol
Do you think rewards systems ANYWHERE are to say thank you, or are just another means of marketing to you? I see a business that's there to make money. Capitalism doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth so it's ok with me. YMMV.
Quote: bigfoot66
To say they lack integrity because they are trying to make money and giving away gifts in the meanwhile shows that one's moral compass is a bit off.
Nailed it, bro!
Quote: FrGambleJust to go back to the whole dealer mistakes question - I was hoping someone can help me sleep at night. I just got back from a very good trip to my local casino. The dealers are all super friendly and great. However, one guy at the craps table was making all kinds of ploppy bets in the middle for incorrect amounts and changing bets all the time. I felt for the dealers and they were struggling to keep up with this guy and do the math. At one point he was playing the don't and won, the dealer paid the DP with the green stack instead of the red for a $50 buck mistake. I saw it the guy saw it but the dealer kept on going. I didn't say anything and that is the first reason I feel bad. However I really feel bad because I keep thinking that they are going to review the tapes and knock this dealer, who is a nice guy and a good dealer. Can someone help put my conscience at ease and/or tell me the procedure for reviewing dealers (if there is any) who may have made a pretty big mistake during the day?
I can't speak to the dealer review procedure as I'm not in the industry, but I for one 100% agree with what you did and think that pointing out a dealer error that benefits another player is a really shitty thing to do and an easy way to get beat up. Ethics about taking "wrong money" for yourself aside, I feel like it's that player's decision whether or not they want to point out the mistake. If I had someone else point out an error in my favor, I would shoot them a dirty look and they would be thankful I'm not a violent person (really, I'm not).
Quote: EvenBobI would never in a hundred years repay a dealer mistake, it would
never even occur to me. The casino not only has the edge, they
want you to police their mistakes for them so you don't get an
edge, even for a minute.
It brings to mind the old saying 'You can't have your cake and eat it
to.' Which means you can't have something both ways. The casino
already has the advantage. When the advantage sometimes goes
to the player because of a dealer mistake, the casino wants us to
give them the advantage in this also, by giving the money back.
Yet they don't let us do the same when we make a mistake. The
dealer often knows full well that a player has just made an error,
yet he doesn't give the money back when the player loses. Why?
Because the casino wants the advantage in all ways on every play.
Try it sometime. Make a mistake and ask if you can get a refund on
your loss. When they get done laughing, they'll tell you the casino
isn't responsible for a players mistakes. Yet they will search you
down if they make one in your favor and insist you repay them.
So no, I will never return money won on a dealer error, its only
fair that I do not.
This is such a great treatise on the issue. I would like to print it out and hang it up.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyMaybe a better question would be: Are all these other people earning a living wage without tips? Where I work our base pay is LESS than minimum wage and only becomes minimum wage if the toke rate isn't high enough to get us to minimum wage.
Maybe an even better question you could ask is why isn't my employer paying me a living wage? I Pay a table rake when I play poker. Ive never heard of a wage rake on employees lol. Sounds like there treating you real fair.
I don't know why people do a lot of the things they do. I don't work with anyone that says that about counters. In fact, as far as I know we pay very little attention to if someone is counting. YMMV.
This is a common myth misspoken bye people in and out of the industry all the time just scroll up this thread and you will find more than one example.
We must live in very different worlds. I, and everyone that I know of in the industry, see it as a business. It's not a charity and I don't think anyone acts like we're there to help anyone pay their bills that month.
Nor am I a charity, and i don't go to casinos to help dealers pay bills that month.Thats up to there employer
And you would have definitely been ejected where I work. It's a private business, and just like no shirt, no shoes, no service, as a private business they have the right to make those kinds of rules. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. No big deal.
No big deal? So out of all the actions the staff could have taken setting up a private table, surrounding him with mobile curtins; going over to the other tables and explaining this whale is a fruit loop please don't look his way and we will comp you guys etc..etc...etc.. The route they chose is to go to the lower dollar players and tell them if you look at the guy were gonna eject you.
Everybody gets caught up looking at the rollers. Do you realize how embarrassing this must have been for those players. they'er doing nothing wrong and in not so many words the staff basically tells them there nobody's and all we care about is this whale do what we say or else. Talk about total lack of respect for another human bieng.
And yes of course I would have been ejected from where you work. I would have forced the issue :) I Also would have told whomever gave the ejection order should they ever pass me on the side walk they better not look directly at me. or I will eject them from said side walk. I hope I don't sound psycho but seeing people get treated like shit pisses me off.
Do you think rewards systems ANYWHERE are to say thank you, or are just another means of marketing to you? I see a business that's there to make money. Capitalism doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth so it's ok with me. YMMV.
I'll respond to this below.
Nailed it, bro!
Quote: rainman
Maybe an even better question you could ask is why isn't my employer paying me a living wage? I Pay a table rake when I play poker. Ive never heard of a wage rake on employees lol. Sounds like there treating you real fair.
No, go ahead and answer mine.
Quote: rainman
This is a common myth misspoken bye people in and out of the industry all the time just scroll up this thread and you will find more than one example.
What's a common myth?
Quote: rainman
Nor am I a charity, and i don't go to casinos to help dealers pay bills that month.Thats up to there employer
If you don't have any trouble sleeping at night, then keep doing what works for you. Raymond Babbit was an interesting movie character, but I think Mr. Pink would be a better handle.
Quote: rainman
No big deal? So out of all the actions the staff could have taken setting up a private table, surrounding him with mobile curtins; going over to the other tables and explaining this whale is a fruit loop please don't look his way and we will comp you guys etc..etc...etc..
I nearly sprayed Diet Coke all over my computer. The above is a joke, right? If not, I can't think of any reason to continue.
Quote: rainman
The route they chose is to go to the lower dollar players and tell them if you look at the guy were gonna eject you.
I'm not that familiar with the thread in question, and I certainly wasn't present when whatever happened happened, but I seriously doubt it was anything like the way you characterized it.
Quote: rainman
Everybody gets caught up looking at the rollers. Do you realize how embarrassing this must have been for those players. they'er doing nothing wrong and in not so many words the staff basically tells them there nobody's and all we care about is this whale do what we say or else. Talk about total lack of respect for another human bieng.
Talk about making it up as you go along.
In all likelihood if anyone stopped and just gawked for a prolonged period of time, someone, security or pit personal, would have likely approached them discreetly and asked them to move along and let the other player play without the audience.
Imagine you're the whale and there's a crowd of people gathered around talking about you like you can't hear them. Talk about total lack of respect for another human being.
Quote: rainman
And yes of course I would have been ejected from where you work. I would have forced the issue :)
Or, to put it another way, you'd have had a total lack of respect for another human being. :)
Quote: rainman
I Also would have told whomever gave the ejection order should they ever pass me on the side walk they better not look directly at me. or I will eject them from said side walk. I hope I don't sound psycho but seeing people get treated like shit pisses me off.
Psycho? No. Silly? Yes.
Just what the internet needed, another tough guy behind a keyboard.
Promotions department makes promotions so confusing that some of the super smart pants people on this forum have trouble making sense of it. Now is it like this because they are not very good at promotions and or the literature. Or is this because they are trying to make it so confusing that there patrons are mistakenly drawn to the casino thinking they have a shot at qualifying for it. All the while the casino knows most people won't because of how they worded and represented it. This is done all over not just casinos but it don't make it right.
This is one of my favorites the old are slots pay back (X) but its really just one somewhere deceptive advertising ?
Like I said earlier i don't care who or whom makes what. I just cant over look tactics in which they do it.
