Poll

2 votes (4.08%)
4 votes (8.16%)
43 votes (87.75%)

49 members have voted

WongBo
WongBo
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May 1st, 2012 at 10:21:45 AM permalink
i never intended my comment as a threat or even as a wish.
it was more of an admonition, that there are many dangerous characters who do not take kindly to being made fun of.
this whole sidetrack of the thread is tired. i take dan at his word that he did not mean it to be offensive.
though, i do think the humor is sort of stereotyping and primitive especially for a person who claims to respect eastern culture.

at any rate, i think it has been clearly established by the courts and the public that card counting is not cheating.
it is certainly not desirable for the casinos, and they have every right to refuse the game to anyone for any reason.
in pai gow poker, is learning the house way and how to play against it, cheating?
you are gaining an advantage by using the tools that are available.
it is exactly the same thing in blackjack.
as long as you are not using a device or spying on the hole card, it is just a part of the game.
i don't think anyone takes seriously, the idea that card counting is cheating.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Doc
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May 1st, 2012 at 11:08:23 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

There has already been one warning issued in this thread. It went to FinsRule for the heinous crime of asking a question that at least I was interested in.

He has been an exemplary member and poster since the early days of this forum. That warning now lumps him in with those who habitually use profanity....


Do you mean as in:
Quote: Paigowdan @ 6:58 this morning

.... I never even tried, as I knew better from the fucking get-go. ... fuck my street cred with the gamblers on the forums. ... If you have a story for us on how fucking card-countng ....

FinsRule
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May 1st, 2012 at 11:40:12 AM permalink
I feel like I need to apologize again for starting this whole thing.

I shouldn't have even bothered asking about counting, because dice (setting/influencing) whatever was my real question.

I think Dan seems like a good guy who doesn't deserve all this berating over his opinion. I think he comes across as a little too preachy and morally superior when it comes to some stuff, but he seems like the type of guy that I would love to have as my Pai Gow dealer.

He is fine with people dice setting, which sort of confuses me because those people are trying to manipulate the rules of the game, but whatever, my question has been answered.

I seem to be really good at ending threads, so let's just end this one.

And I know you don't take this too seriously Dan, but I'm sorry. And I hope everyone else doesn't take this too seriously either, it's just the internet...
LonesomeGambler
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May 1st, 2012 at 11:52:35 AM permalink
Paigowdan is coming across as the most level-headed and reasonable poster in a thread about advantage plays being considered cheating techniques! I will remember this day.

And if identity exposure weren't an issue, I would gladly meet Paigowdan on Spring Mountain, as it's home to my favorite donut shop in the entire world, and one of my favorite LV restaurants—a hole in the wall Banh Mi joint—which is only a few blocks away.
Hunterhill
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May 1st, 2012 at 12:45:05 PM permalink
If they or you tell me to "lighten up Jack," you will see me get about as Asian as Pol Pot of Cambodia in its heyday.

Dan what does your above quote imply. What POL POT did was a tragedy.Would you say, you would be about as much a nazi as Hitler.

I just don`t understand what you meant by this comment. I find it disturbing.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
EvenBob
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May 1st, 2012 at 12:48:18 PM permalink
Dan says: "I never even tried, as I knew better from the fucking get-go. ... fuck my street cred with the gamblers on the forums."

We covered all of this in that 'other' thread
a few months ago. Dan thinks the casinos
wear the white hats (because he works
for one) and AP's wear black hats. He's
made it obvious that regular customers
(the losers) wear beanies with spinners
on top. Dan is beside himself with glee
that the Wiz has finally come to his senses
and joined the white hat side.

The rest of us know the reality of casino
gambling, and who wears what hat. Why
run it into the ground, let Dan tilt at his
windmills. I find it very entertaining and have
no desire for him to ever change.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Doc
Doc
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May 1st, 2012 at 12:48:56 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

you would be about as much a nazi as Hitler.


Aha! Goodwin's Law.
EvenBob
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May 1st, 2012 at 12:53:19 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Aha! Goodwin's Law.



"Godwin observed that, given enough time,
in any online discussion—regardless of topic
or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some
point made in the discussion by comparing it
to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis."

Unless you're a liberal, then it happens
almost immediately.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Hunterhill
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:01:42 PM permalink
Doc you took my quote out of context.I was not comparing dan to a Nazi.I find his comment about POL POT to be as equally disturbing as someone using the hitler or Nazi comparison.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Doc
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:12:30 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Doc you took my quote out of context.


Perhaps I did. But Goodwin's Law does not say anything about whether a comparison is appropriate, off-topic, or anything else. It just suggest that in any internet discussion eventually there will be a comparison made to Hitler or the Nazis. In this case, you were comparing a comment about Pol Pot to a comment about Hitler and Nazis, so I thought that was close enough to be an example of Goodwin's Law being in action.
EvenBob
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:17:56 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Perhaps I did. But Goodwin's Law does not say anything about whether a comparison is appropriate,



Absolutely. And its Godwin, not Goodwin. His
point is that if the discussion goes long enough,
Hitler will inevitably be mentioned. And I say
if its a political discussion, it will be mentioned
sooner rather than later.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FinsRule
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:30:27 PM permalink
Now I want to go to all the threads and mention Hitler.
Doc
Doc
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:09:32 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Absolutely. And its Godwin, not Goodwin.


Ooops! My bad. Thanks for the correction.
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:48:39 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I feel like I need to apologize again for starting this whole thing.

I shouldn't have even bothered asking about counting, because dice (setting/influencing) whatever was my real question.

I think Dan seems like a good guy who doesn't deserve all this berating over his opinion. I think he comes across as a little too preachy and morally superior when it comes to some stuff, but he seems like the type of guy that I would love to have as my Pai Gow dealer.

He is fine with people dice setting, which sort of confuses me because those people are trying to manipulate the rules of the game, but whatever, my question has been answered.

I seem to be really good at ending threads, so let's just end this one.

And I know you don't take this too seriously Dan, but I'm sorry. And I hope everyone else doesn't take this too seriously either, it's just the internet...



That's okay. But let it end of this:
Let me say this on the "wrong money" issue - or accepting ANY money at all that you did not really win - WHILE you are in knowledge of that fact:

There is just NO grey area, and it is NOT preachy. If you KNOW you did not really win it, then you just HAVE to push it back, you have to refuse the money.

I DO view it as Black and White issue, or an ALL or NOTHING issue. If from a dealer mistake, or if someone drops a black chip near you, and he didn't see it, - whatever - that type of thing, - then you just cannot touch that money. If you say "it is the dealer's job to not make mistakes," or that "it is everyone's responsibility to not accidentally drop their black chips on the floor five feet from me," then this does NOT absolve you from the responsibility of knowing that it was NOT intended for your personal benefit! A mistake does not make the money yours if it was not intentioned. AND...using your brains is being in knowledge of this simple fact.

Dice setting is okay - as you cannot really influence the dice as a non-robot, you just cannot. And if you could with the accuracy like a robot, then kudos to you.

Card counting - as you KNOW it is against the house rules, it is undeniable. Counting, hole-carding, AP play that is AGAINST the house rules - causes house expenses, and thereby causes the casino rules to be LESS player advantageous - driving up the costs of gambling for EVERYONE, especially to those who do NOT try to count or hole-card, etc!

This is not a legal issue, or a "cops and lawyers" involvement issue, it's like cheating on taxes and getting away with it to no police action. You could do it, and get away with it, but just because you might be able to do it and get away with it, (and by using a deliberate technique that you are NOT expected to use), doesn't mean or make it is allowed or proper, simply because it is possible - and this is known.
Casino defenses have advanced so much surveillance-wise, it is not even feasible or productive anymore, and is kind of silly in this day and age.

As for the the Hitler/Goodwin scenario, if I am goofing on someone, or giving him a little snot back to him via something as daffy as mixing an 'r' with an 'l' (while simultaneously having a handle so overtly Asian-overboard as "WongBo" as my wife pointed, out watching me type!), then it is about as ridiculous as myself having the handle of "WhiteyBoyRoundEye" - and then getting murderously upset and threatening over a golf-and-Connecticut Country club White Boy Reference! I'd laugh at that, and change my forum handle - and threaten back to whomever to come on down to las Vegas. Let me be crear on that.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
weaselman
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:59:24 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



Card counting - as you KNOW it is against the house rules, it is undeniable.



No, it isn't. Doc denied it above, and so do I, and many other people have.
Thus, not undeniable, you are wrong.

It is not against house rules. It may be against some secret "internal document", but secret documents are not rules.
House rules are published, and anyone can look at them and see for themselves, that card counting is not forbidden.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 3:12:40 PM permalink
I think it is very clear that card counting is common knowledge of being generally forbidden - as unacceptable advantage play.

You cannot learn to count cards - to the ability of doing it well enough to be remotely profitable - and pretend with a straight face that it is fine and dandy to do.

It is known everywhere as being outright against the house rules, and the legions of people who got everything from being backed off, to put in the black book, to being 86-ed from a casino for it, it is known as plain as a sunny day's sunshine. To claim otherwise is just abject BS. You don't get backed off of a blackjack table for having an ugly haircut. You can get backed off for real, AND you will KNOW exactly why, having done it.

To also claim that you need to see a book or a tome of legal house regulations before a security guard or pit boss backs you off of a table game, or out of a casino establishment for that matter - is also BS.

The fact that you can get backed off of a table game, or out of a casino for, is precisely because it is both forbidden, and commonly known as common knowledge to be against the house rules - to those who practice it, - and to those who run casinos, too.

Card counting is indeed forbidden, and you can get backed off a table, or expelled from a casino for exactly that reason.
To pretened that you don't know this, if you know card counting well enough to do it - is total crap.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FinsRule
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May 1st, 2012 at 3:25:50 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



Dice setting is okay... ...if you could with the accuracy like a robot, then kudos to you.



Dan, sorry to belabor the point, but that view seems so contradictory to what you say. I would have thought for sure you would say "Dice setting is okay because you cannot influence the dice as a non-robot, but if you could influence the dice then you are playing with an unfair advantage"

I guess I don't see the distinction in using your brain to get an advantage versus using the skills of your hands to throw the dice.
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 3:31:01 PM permalink
It's not a question of something being doable, -
it is a question of a gambling behavior being acceptable or objectionable to a casino house, to which the answer is known when you get backed off.
this is not hard to wrap a brain or a consciousness mind around, unless AP denial enters the picture.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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May 1st, 2012 at 4:27:15 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I think it is very clear that card counting is common knowledge of being generally forbidden - as unacceptable advantage play.



Unacceptable to YOU, Dan, not to the rest of us.
As long as you continue to present games, we
will continue to try and beat them. If I was a
game designer with games in casinos, I would
lay awake at night fuming over the jerks out there
trying to beat my game. Don't they know its a
one way street, I'm the game designer, I'm the
only one allowed to have the advantage.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
weaselman
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May 1st, 2012 at 4:27:37 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


To also claim that you need to see a book or a tome of legal house regulations before a security guard or pit boss backs you off of a table game, or out of a casino establishment for that matter - is also BS.


I am not claiming that. It is their casino, and they can back me off at any time for any reason, or for no reason.

But to claim that what I am doing is "against the rules", that no one has ever seen (and never will) - that is BS.

Quote:

The fact that you can get backed off of a table game, or out of a casino for, is precisely because it is both forbidden, and commonly known as common knowledge to be against the house rules - to those who practice it, - and to those who run casinos, too.



I have been backed off several times in the past, and every time time I asked why. Not once was I told it was because they thought I was counting.

Quote:

To pretened that you don't know this, if you know card counting well enough to do it - is total crap.


I do know that casinos don't like when I am counting. I also know that they don't like when I am winning in general. Or when I am not using my player card. None of these are forbidden. To pretend that it is if you understand business well enough to graduate high school - that is total crap.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
MrV
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May 1st, 2012 at 4:30:12 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It's not a question of something being doable, -
it is a question of a gambling behavior being acceptable or objectionable to a casino house, to which the answer is known when you get backed off. this is not hard to wrap a brain or a consciousness mind around, unless AP denial enters the picture.



Indeed.

If card counting isn't against the rules in Las Vegas casinos, why do card counters take pains to hide the fact that they are counting?

Heck, if it isn't against the rules, why not ask the dealer if he knows the count, so a player can then ratchet up his / her bet when the count is favorable?

Rhetorical questions, obviously.
"What, me worry?"
newbie49
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:01:26 PM permalink
>>> I think it is very clear that card counting is common knowledge of being generally forbidden - as unacceptable advantage play

It is clear almost all casino don't allow it and it is unacceptable advantage play as far as the casino managment is concerned.
It is also clear card counting is legal. So anyone can walk into any casino and start card counting. And they can continue to do so until the casino kicks them out.

>>> It is known everywhere as being outright against the house rules.

Define house rules please.
I usually understand it to mean the rules of the games. You know the ones written and legally enforcable. By this definition, card counting is within the rules of the games.

>>> The fact that you can get backed off of a table game, or out of a casino for, is precisely because it is both forbidden, and commonly known as common knowledge to be against the house rules - to those who practice it, - and to those who run casinos, too.

Forbidden by the casino, but not by the law. Hence anyone card count at any casino. The worst the casino can do is kick you out.
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:02:30 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Unacceptable to YOU, Dan, not to the rest of us.


Only because it is unacceptable to many casino operators.
If something IS INDEED acceptable to operators (such as dice setting in many places), then it is fine with me if by the house rules; I'll carry it out in both a game design and in dealing procedures, and be fine with what is okay to do in the casino house.

Now, as for you guys, it really doesn't matter if something is both desirable and acceptable to you.
It matters if it is feasible and allowable in the place.
If it is not, then getting backed off and 86-ed may be your experienced, and possibly to your chagrin.
In other words, the fact of gambling life is that if something is a no-go - a non-starter - with a casino operator, then you really can't do it, and if you try, then anything from being backed off or 86-ed, and even detained if legally appropriate, may indeed happen to you, whether you like it or not.

For this to be an acceptable situation to an AP player is untenable, outside of denial.
Hence, there really isn't any more real glory or success to casino card counting anymore, except on such a trivial level below the radar, that it is nothing of any major importance anymore anyway.

The only gamblers or gaming people who seem to be able to do well are either the better poker players, or the higher-level workers.

As for lying awake at night worrying about AP's scheming against my game, it hasn't happened, and it won't. You just can't count down a static pai Gow hand that was dealt from a single deck after the discards were discarded.

I might worry about the countability or AP weakness in a felt side bet that I am developing, and I have a mathematician (and a card-counting AP player) working on my side with that, to ensure that it is permanently defendable.

And:
Quote: newbie49

Forbidden by the casino, but not by the law. Hence anyone card count at any casino. The worst the casino can do is kick you out.


Which is why:
1. barring, flat-etting, and even ejection works as a deterrent if needed, and;
2. the lousy rules and houses edges that were put in place were essentially the fault of AP players who caused them to be needed as a response - to close the door that AP opened.

So, basically, it is better to be a top-flight poker player than a card counter or hole-carder in this day and age.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
newbie49
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:09:08 PM permalink
>>> it's like cheating on taxes and getting away with it to no police action. You could do it, and get away with it, but just because you might be able to do it and get away with it, (and by using a deliberate technique that you are NOT expected to use), doesn't mean or make it is allowed or proper, simply because it is possible - and this is known.

Card counting is no like cheating on taxes; assuming the tax cheating is illegal.

You can walk into a police station and confess that you have been card counting. The police will laugh at you.
If you walk into a tax office and claim you have cheated tax illegally. They will make you pay the tax evaded.
EvenBob
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:17:30 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



So, basically, it is better to be a top-flight poker player than a card counter or hole-carder in this day and age.



Says the casino hopefully, wishing those
wascally card counters would all just go
away and let us get back to our real job
of skinning the, er, offering the public good
entertainment.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Face
Administrator
Face
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:18:48 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

" We've backed off a counter betting between $5 a hand to $75 on a double deck "
Just a 15 to 1 spread and you guys picked that up LOL
Face will be jealous. I hear there are a few opening in Secret Service recently for such talented people.



Pick away if you must. I'll still keep the shot takers off Action Blackjack in spite of the jabs ;) Good luck, btw.

/slinks back into shadow before getting dragged into discussion
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
MrV
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:22:13 PM permalink
That dog won't hunt.

Poker does NOT involve pitting the house against the player.

BJ does.

Unlike dice setting, card counting has been shown to objectively change the odds, in favor of the player.

No wonder the casinos bar it: I would.
"What, me worry?"
newbie49
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:24:28 PM permalink
>>> So, basically, it is better to be a top-flight poker player than a card counter or hole-carder in this day and age.

I agree.
It is also better to be a top-flight card counter than an average poker player / HC
weaselman
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:40:00 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


2. the lousy rules and houses edges that were put in place were essentially the fault of AP players who caused them to be needed as a response - to close the door that AP opened.


Bullshit. You can close that door easily by installing a CSM or lowering the table max. Lousy rules is just pure greed.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
newbie49
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May 1st, 2012 at 5:58:40 PM permalink
>>> If card counting isn't against the rules in Las Vegas casinos, why do card counters take pains to hide the fact that they are counting?

While card counting is legal within the rules of games, the casino do not allow player to use card counting.
By rules of the game, I mean the published written rules of the games.

So card counter take pains to hide the fact that they are counting.
By hiding, a card counter can continue (legally) counting at a particular casino longer than otherwise.
Switch
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May 1st, 2012 at 6:11:09 PM permalink
Quote: paigowdan

...the lousy rules and houses edges that were put in place were essentially the fault of AP players who caused them to be needed as a response - to close the door that AP opened.



Quote: weaselman

Bullshit. You can close that door easily by installing a CSM or lowering the table max. Lousy rules is just pure greed.



A lot of players don't like CSM's and lowering the table max' could reduce the size of a gambling wager. The casinos wish to maximize profits, like most businesses - greed is a slightly strong expression IMO.

'Blackjack Switch' originally had a 0.16% house edge and was successfully installed with both players and casino happy. However, the game got hit by an AP team when it was installed in a prominent 'Strip' casino. The result? They asked me if I could tweak the game to deter the counters by not offering such a low edge. So, the 0.58% version came out which has little effect on an average player but keeps the AP teams away in the main.
weaselman
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May 1st, 2012 at 6:38:40 PM permalink
Quote: Switch

A lot of players don't like CSM's


Exactly! But Why do they not like them? They reduce the house edge a little bit, so they are actually to the benefit of the player (unless, he is a counter of course, but, if that was really "against the rules", that's exactly what we want). The only reason for the player not to like CSM is because he thinks he can count, which, of course most players really can't. The casino knows that, so they do not want to install a CSM, because they profit a lot from people who think they can count, but do it poorly. The same reason, they won't actually say it officially, that they forbid counting, and won't publish any rule that says so - they actually want the counters to play. It is only the good counters that they don't want. If everybody, who thinks they count BJ suddenly stopped (not even stopped playing, just stopped thinking that they are counting), that would actually hurt the casino's bottom line, not help it.

It is a lot like the situation with dice setting - sure, they allow it, and even encourage as long as they are sure it cannot be done. But if someone actually succeeded in it, guess how long it would take them to back that guy off?

Quote:

and lowering the table max' could reduce the size of a gambling wager.


It should not if there is another table, with a higher min.

Quote:

The casinos wish to maximize profits, like most businesses - greed is a slightly strong expression IMO.


CSM is maximizing profit. Marketing campaigns is maximizing profit. Even backing off winning players (counting or not) is (barely) maximizing profit. Bastardizing game rules in hopes to attract enough idiots who do not know better is greed.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
EvenBob
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May 1st, 2012 at 7:09:47 PM permalink
Quote: Switch

A lot of players don't like CSM's



Counters don't like them, the general public
could care less. Before counting, BJ was not
a popular game. It was called 21 and casinos
had a couple tables, thats all. Then comes
all the would be counters and the game explodes.
They go from 2 tables to 20 and more. They
don't want all counters foiled, that would ruin
everything.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
WongBo
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May 1st, 2012 at 8:52:10 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

if I am goofing on someone, or giving him a little snot back to him via something as daffy as mixing an 'r' with an 'l' (while simultaneously having a handle so overtly Asian-overboard as "WongBo" as my wife pointed, out watching me type!), then it is about as ridiculous as myself having the handle of "WhiteyBoyRoundEye" - and then getting murderously upset and threatening over a golf-and-Connecticut Country club White Boy Reference! I'd laugh at that, and change my forum handle - and threaten back to whomever to come on down to las Vegas. Let me be crear on that.



i am sort of surprised you dont know what wong bo is a reference to. it is a high hand in 牌九 (pai gow). 自信.
you remember pai gow, don't you dan? it is the game that pai gow poker is based on. 直
ring a bell? 狡笑
sort of ironic coming from a caucasian called paigowdan. 自大 !
not sure which is funnier, that you have no clue about paigow ..懶
or that you mock an asian name for being "asian-overboard" while you run around calling yourself paigowdan. 怪

by the way, i never threatened you. 黐線
i merely pointed out that if you try that pidgeon english shit with the wrong asian you will regret it. 誠實

one more thing, i counted down nine shoes today at a $100 table, 勇
made $2,300. 聰. i didn't get shuffled, flatted, backed, or barred.聰明.
so how is it that card counting is dead? 好奇...

oh is my post too "asian-overboard" for you?
學廣東話
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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May 2nd, 2012 at 1:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Ever see your surgeon friend shoot in that same manner and lose?



I played with him twice. First weekend we were at a $25 table. It was a nice, profitable session. Nice to have one once in a while.

We met up one more time at Caesars and it was a busy Saturday night and the only table open was a $100 table. So I bought in for a thousand... not my usual style. We about tripled our buyins. Nice to have two in a while.

Haven't seen him since.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 2nd, 2012 at 4:19:45 AM permalink
Anecdote time... I work with a nurse who saw me practicing pai gow cards during a break, eventually taught her the game. Next I taught her the tiles, she got a phone ap and we play together at work when schedule permits. We will be going to Canadian casino later this month for live action. Anyway, we will often greet each other with the phrases 'gong wong, WONG BO, or, Bo Bo... I was calling her wongbo before you joined the forum. You owe me one dollar for nickname infringement!
WongBo
WongBo
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May 2nd, 2012 at 6:13:48 AM permalink
i will gladly forward you a cut of my next teen wong/gee joon payout.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
AceCrAAckers
AceCrAAckers
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May 2nd, 2012 at 7:59:13 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



Cheating is breaking the rules of a game


Agreed.

Quote: Paigowdan

in order to get something of personal benefit that you wouldn't be able to obtain through legitimate play.


Legitimate play. So we are talking about legality or gambling?

When you count card are you guaranteed to win? No. Can you count card and still lose your shirt? Yes. Are you as a player taking a chance when you bet with the outcome of the bet unknown before hand, which is the definition of gambling? At most how much edge does an AP have in a high count shoe? Probably 1-2%.

No card counter is cheating any more than people who play perfect video poker is cheating. With comps/promotions some video poker players have an advantage and yet they are playing by the casino rules and they have been barred. I have had my bonus taken away on an internet poker site because they said I am a winning player and the bonus is only meant for the losers, in so many words.

Paigowdan, I respect your opinion and you as a person, but when you state that counting is cheating it is your opinion not fact. Until you can give me a court case where a person has been arrested and sentenced for this "crime", it is my opinion counting is not cheating.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
LonesomeGambler
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May 2nd, 2012 at 9:16:24 AM permalink
I know it's poor judgment to get involved in this discussion, but I do want to make a few points that will inevitably result in absolutely no one's opinion's changing whatsoever.

Quote: Paigowdan

Card counting - as you KNOW it is against the house rules, it is undeniable. Counting, hole-carding, AP play that is AGAINST the house rules - causes house expenses, and thereby causes the casino rules to be LESS player advantageous - driving up the costs of gambling for EVERYONE, especially to those who do NOT try to count or hole-card, etc!



This is such a weak argument that I don't even know where to start. How about here: game protection "experts" making the rules of games increasingly unfavorable for everyone is very often nothing more than a result of laziness, paranoia, and/or a simple lack of understanding about how their games work. To blame their poor decisions on the actions of APs is absurd. We've already established that a tiny percentage of the gambling population are advantage players, and only a tiny fraction of those are adequately bankrolled and skilled enough to do any real damage. Despite this, casino operators insist on dealing to < 0.1% of their customers (advantage players), while the other 99.9%+ lose more as a result of their shortsightedness and misdirected micromanagement. And then some people *ahem* have the gall to blame this on < 0.1% of the players!

Let's take a look at some common game "protection" scenarios:

- No Mid-Shoe Entry: designed to keep out those pesky wongers, but it also keeps out... everyone! You have no idea how many times I've sat at a table with several other players, all waiting in boredom while the lone player who didn't take a bathroom break works their way through a fresh 8-deck shoe. This is the single most insane attempt at game protection that has ever been devised. I don't think it's an exaggeration to speculate that an average to big casino loses millions every quarter (or month? week?) by preventing their customers from betting once a shoe is in progress.

- Half-shoe or even simple lousy penetration: Let's say that it takes a casino an average of three minute to load cards into the discard tray, place them into the ASM, remove the next pack, place it out for the cut, load it into the shoe, and start dealing. Let's also say that the average table sees an average wager-per-table of $120 per round and a game speed of 70 rounds per hour (not taking shuffling into account). The table is expected to make around $45 per hour, which means that the shuffling procedure "costs" around $3 per table. If the casino has 30 live tables, that's $90 per shuffling period, taking all tables into account.

A casino that deals 7 decks out of an 8-deck shoe would be considered unusually generous by today's standards, while a casino dealing 5.5 decks can be found in nearly any casino in the world offering 8-deck games. The 5.5-deck dealer has to shuffle 21% more often than the 7-deck counterpart! At $90 to shuffle, wouldn't you be concerned with this 21% increase in time spent shuffling, all so that the game is less attractive to a tiny fraction of the population (who by the way, are rarely making even $90 an hour)? This is especially egregious in houses that use a hand-shuffle. Speaking of which...

- Complex shuffles: The number of players who can successfully beat a single-pass R&R with no plugs (essentially the easiest casino shuffle to beat) probably number in the dozens. Yet casinos are willing to introduce preposterous multi-pass shuffles that go beyond the realm of randomization and into the realm of obsession. I've sat through shuffles that took 5 minutes on their own, not taking into account the time spent removing and loading the cards, offering the cut, loading the shoe, etc. Take into account players leaving to take a bathroom break or get a drink instead of sitting at a dead table for 7 minutes, and you can easily cost yourself 8 or more minutes per shuffle! Now that $90 becomes $180, all because you're worried about shuffle trackers.

- Removal of good rules, like RSA, DAS, LS, etc.: I play a lot of blackjack. I've played a lot of blackjack for several years, and in regions thousands of miles apart, from upscale, big-money casinos in major gambling destinations to tiny dumps in the middle of nowhere. To say that it's rare that I encounter a player who even knows correct BS (this goes for casino employees as well), much less the changes to make between a DAS game and NDAS—or the correct time to surrender—would be like saying that dealt royal flushes don't seem to pop up very often in the 20 hands of VP that I play every month or so. These rules are good for the player who knows how to use them, but no one does! The casinos would make so much more money off of surrender by offering to clueless gamblers than they would lose from players who actually know the strategy, yet it's the most commonly-excluded rule there is (other than maybe H17, but that one's just pure greed).

I could go on forever, but I'm sure everyone is tired of reading this already, and I still have some more ranting to do. But hey, let's just blame all this on the advantage players, eh?

Quote: Paigowdan

I think it is very clear that card counting is common knowledge of being generally forbidden - as unacceptable advantage play.



Quote: Paigowdan

Dice setting is okay - as you cannot really influence the dice as a non-robot, you just cannot.



I know Dan is a casino guy, and I can't fault him for having this perspective. But it's also very telling. Let me make it perfectly clear what the "rules" are:

Any attempt to play a casino game more optimally is allowed, so long as it only cuts into the house edge and doesn't actually overcome it. Basic strategy for blackjack is OK because it allows the player to play with the lowest possibly negative expectation, but counting (an extension of basic strategy that takes deck composition into account) is not allowed because it crosses this threshold. Dice setting is allowed because it doesn't work, in Dan's opinion. People can fool themselves that they have the edge (and maybe gamble money that they wouldn't were they not under such an illusion), so long as they don't really. Progression players, system players—all fine, as long as they are going to lose.

Quote: Switch

'Blackjack Switch' originally had a 0.16% house edge and was successfully installed with both players and casino happy. However, the game got hit by an AP team when it was installed in a prominent 'Strip' casino. The result? They asked me if I could tweak the game to deter the counters by not offering such a low edge. So, the 0.58% version came out which has little effect on an average player but keeps the AP teams away in the main.

This is the same argument that Dan is making, but in a slightly trickier form. By providing actual details of a real-life scenario, the argument is made that APs are the cause of worsening rules. Hell, this proves it! APs made a play, the casino lost money, so the rules were changed for the worse. The worse rules (3x the original HE) have "little" effect on the average gambler, and the game is less attractive to APs. The only problem is that this is type of reasoning is pure fallacy.

The rules were changed for the worse not because the game was attacked by APs, but because the casino made the decision to change the rules. Nowhere is the casino's decision brought into question; it's simply taken for granted that if a casino makes a rule change, then it was a sound decision based on logic and a detailed statistical analysis and not just a misdirected, paranoid, knee-jerk reaction.

It's like the teacher who takes away the whole class's privileges because one student broke the rules and didn't fess up to it. This is not designed as a reasonable and effective response to a rule infraction, it's a tactic used to shame the rule-breaking student and turn his peers against him. No one questions the soundness of the teacher's decision, they just get angry at the rule-breaker.

---

An AP team makes $25,000 on a blackjack game over the course of a weekend, so the casino responds by lowering table limits, cutting more cards off, introducing a more complex shuffle, making the rules worse (no more late surrender), and not allowing mid-shoe entry—moves that ultimately cost them more than the AP team made on every single business day. The shift boss flips through his mug book in an empty pit and mutters to himself, "this is why we can't have nice things."
P90
P90
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May 2nd, 2012 at 11:21:21 AM permalink
Quote: LonesomeGambler

- No Mid-Shoe Entry:
- Half-shoe or even simple lousy penetration:


The latter of the two actually helps offset the former. If you have no mid-shoe entry, you want to run through your shoes quicker, even if it means more shuffling.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
LonesomeGambler
LonesomeGambler
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May 2nd, 2012 at 11:31:53 AM permalink
Quote: P90

The latter of the two actually helps offset the former. If you have no mid-shoe entry, you want to run through your shoes quicker, even if it means more shuffling.


Alas, circular reasoning won't help casinos make more money from these ridiculous countermeasures.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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May 2nd, 2012 at 12:11:35 PM permalink
Quote: LonesomeGambler

circular reasoning won't help casinos make more money from these ridiculous countermeasures.



Casinos are like the rich guy who gets a piece
of silverware stolen by his staff once in awhile,
so he installs a $100,000 surveillance system.
Overkill.

Greed is the overwhelming emotion that rules
how casinos are run. They not only think they
deserve every dollar in your pocket as soon as
you walk thru the door, it drives them absolutely
batty that you could be beating them at their
own game.

In the old days of Vegas, before the gaming
commission, it was found that every game in
in Vegas was rigged. Every wheel was gaffed,
the dice were loaded, the card dealers cheated.
Thats on top of the built in house edge. You
didn't have a chance. And if you did manage to
win somehow, they assumed you were cheating
and beat the crap out of you.

Knowing this is the casinos attitude, is it any
wonder they over react to AP's. If they get
a hundred dollars, spend a thousand dollars
to stop them. Greed blinds them, greed runs
them, greed flows thru their veins. Thats what
makes being an AP so much fun. Watching the
casinos suffer.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
1BB
1BB
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May 2nd, 2012 at 12:44:24 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Do you mean as in:



That depends. If one of the "in crowd" uses the F-word they're "passionate". If the F-word is used by the hoi polloi then it's profanity.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
AceTwo
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May 3rd, 2012 at 11:05:55 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Indeed.

If card counting isn't against the rules in Las Vegas casinos, why do card counters take pains to hide the fact that they are counting?

Heck, if it isn't against the rules, why not ask the dealer if he knows the count, so a player can then ratchet up his / her bet when the count is favorable?

Rhetorical questions, obviously.



Saying that card counting is illegal or cheating or against the rules is the same as saying that:
Thinking and using your brain is illegal or cheating or against the rules.

Lets compare a Card counter, a Basic Strategy Player and a Clueless Player

Card Counter
Beting: changes up and down according to a strategy called card counting
Playing: Uses Basic Strategy about 80%-90% of the time and more appropriate strategy based on the count the rest of the time
Tools:Uses his eyes to see the cards
Methodology: Uses his brain to keep the count, remember the basic strategy and index plays
EV: Around +1%

Basic Strategy Player
Beting: Flat Bet, or change according to strategy called progression or other startegy or according to startegy called feeling lucky
Playing: Uses Basic Strategy
Tools: Uses his eyes to see the cards
Methodology: Uses his brain to remember the basic strategy and to follow his progression or other strategy
EV: Around -0.5% to -1%

Clueless Player
Beting: Flat Bet, or change according to strategy called progression or other startegy or according to startegy called feeling lucky
Playing: Uses Inuition, hanches, pesonal memory of what he believes works etc
Tools: Uses his eyes to see the cards
Methodology: Uses his brain regarding his intuition and whatever other strategy he uses
EV: Around -2% to -3%

So comparing we see that all of them use their eyes and their brain to play BJ and all of them use some kind of sttategy. The Card counter sees exactly the same cards as the rest and all of them have a startegy and bet according to what they see.
Is just that the card counter uses a superior strategy than the others.

If you still insist that is illegal, cheating etc , then why should not also the person using only Basic Stretegy also be illegal, cheating etc. Persons playing Basic Strategy perfectly at a game with good rules (say with -0.3%) and also getting comps are probably playing an even game or even a slighly positive game with the comps. It is obvisously not the intention of most casinos to have such players either but the casino mostly tolerate such players.

In the days that casinos existed in Moscow many had rules with Positive Ev and it was not unusual for them to ban also basic strategy players as well.

Card Counting is nothing more than using your brain. How can using your brain be illegal, cheating or aaginst the rules. Can you imagine any law, rule or regulation in any area of life (not just casinos) that forbids thinking whatever anything is thinking. Someone might be thinking in his brain about commiting the most horrible crime and as long as it is only in his brain he cannot possibly be breaking any law, rule or regulation. How can thinking about a strategy of what to bet and how to play in BJ using information that everyone sees (and everyone uses that information is some way) possibly be breaking a law, rule or regulation.

And lets say it is illegal or cheating or whatever, where do you draw the line.
A basic strategy player playing single deck and on the first round all Aces come out. He reduces his bet on the next round based on that observation. This is clearly counting information (albeit rudimentary counting) and he should also be considered as being illegal,cheating etc.
WongBo
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May 3rd, 2012 at 11:20:36 AM permalink
card counting: not illegal.
serving visibly intoxicated persons alcohol: illegal

i have blown a .3% BAC upon leaving a casino.
seems to me the casinos are the ones that are ethically challenged, not the counters.

edit: my breathalyzer is not court mandated!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
QuadDeuces
QuadDeuces
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May 4th, 2012 at 6:27:23 PM permalink
Quote: WongBo

card counting: not illegal.
serving visibly intoxicated persons alcohol: illegal
i have blown a .3% BAC upon leaving a casino.



That doesn't mean you were visibly intoxicated. Maybe you're good at it.
1BB
1BB
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May 5th, 2012 at 4:45:43 AM permalink
Quote: QuadDeuces

That doesn't mean you were visibly intoxicated. Maybe you're good at it.



The accuracy of breath analyzing machines is often challenged. Most people with a BAC of .20 would be noticed by even the most casual observer. A .30 would put most people in a coma.

Perhaps our resident physician can elaborate. He'll be with you in just a few more minutes.

Would you like another magazine?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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May 5th, 2012 at 4:54:47 AM permalink
1BB- different people react quite differently to similar blood alcohol levels. I know I get 'tipsy' far sooner than cohorts drinking a similar amount. You know there are the 'happy drunks', the 'obnoxious drunks', the 'quiet drunks', etc. My guess is the 'quiet drunks' are less easily detectable, especially at a gaming table. The last time I was 'drunk', a few years back, I made a conscious effort to try not to appear drunk so I just sat at the bar I was at and smiled a lot. I think I could have played basic strategy BJ, or Pai Gow, even as tipsy as I was.
CrapsForever
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May 5th, 2012 at 5:45:39 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

different people react quite differently to similar blood alcohol levels. I know I get 'tipsy' far sooner than cohorts drinking a similar amount.



Agree completely!

I get "tipsy" after a sip of Liquor/Beer/Champagne/Wine Cooler, etc. I definitely have the lowest liquor tolerance of anyone I have ever met in my life.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
shelvifiroza
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May 5th, 2012 at 9:41:38 AM permalink
Cheating is done to make our personal benefits by some of the tricks. According to me, Dice influence is very good trick to cheat someone and win. I was also cheated with this trick once.
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