Poll

2 votes (4.08%)
4 votes (8.16%)
43 votes (87.75%)

49 members have voted

FinsRule
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:00:52 AM permalink
This is mainly for Dan, since I presume he thinks anyone who does either is immoral.

Which makes you a bigger cheater - Counting at Blackjack or setting the dice in craps?
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:02:18 AM permalink
Surprise: NEITHER is cheating.
s2dbaker
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:06:45 AM permalink
I went with Setting The Dice. They actually believe that they are cheating even though it's a fantasy. Counters are using a skill to evaluate their reasonable expectation of winning.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:27:56 AM permalink
Who outside the casino says its cheating.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:36:16 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

This is mainly for Dan, since I presume he thinks anyone who does either is immoral.

He may think something is immoral, illegal and fattening ... but that doesn't mean it even exists. Dice Control does not exist.
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:38:23 AM permalink
Well, dice control and dice influencing may not exist, but the enforcement division of the Nevada Gaming Commission says its legal. they also say that card counting is legal but the casino doesn't have to let you play.

Next issue.
Nareed
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April 30th, 2012 at 12:03:42 PM permalink
Cheating the casino or the player? (she asked innocently).
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
MrV
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April 30th, 2012 at 4:44:53 PM permalink
Is dice setting cheating?

No, because it doesn't work.

But if were objectively proven that a player could achieve an advantage by DI, you better believe it would be criminalized, or else we'd all roll dem bones from a cup.

A shooter should be a random number generator: period.
"What, me worry?"
jml24
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April 30th, 2012 at 4:57:19 PM permalink
I agree with MrV. I voted neither because I don't think dice setting has any effect. If it worked then it would be cheating because the rules of the game assume random dice. Card counting is not cheating either because it is entirely within the rules. The casino could easily eliminate any possible advantage through rule or procedure change, such as using CSM.
Paigowdan
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:01:42 PM permalink
It depends on what you know is allowed by the rules to be followed.
Many casinos don't mind dice setting if it doesn't slow the game down. Practically no one has the pinpoint skill to ever make it work.
Card counting is a 100% known rule infraction by those who do it, and this cannot be denied. The only use of camoflage is to not be seen or caught doing it while knowing full well it is an infraction.

Cheating is breaking the rules of a game, in order to get something of personal benefit that you wouldn't be able to obtain through legitimate play.
I now believe that most people are fundamentally dishonest to some degree, and it's the way many people simply are: tax cheating, fare-beating, breaking the rules to get or to take something undeserved for nothing, that good-faith behavior wouldn't get you.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AceCrAAckers
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:31:35 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It depends on what you know is allowed by the rules to be followed.
Many casinos don't mind dice setting if it doesn't slow the game down. Practically no one has the pinpoint skill to ever make it work.
Card counting is a 100% known rule infraction by those who do it, and this cannot be denied. The only use of camoflage is to not be seen or caught doing it while knowing full well it is an infraction.

Cheating is breaking the rules of a game, in order to get something of personal benefit that you wouldn't be able to obtain through legitimate play.
I now believe that most people are fundamentally dishonest to some degree, and it's the way many people simply are: tax cheating, fare-beating, breaking the rules to get or to take something undeserved for nothing, that good-faith behavior wouldn't get you.



Cheating is breaking the rules of a game. No it is not. Example in basketball, it is call a foul. In football it is a penalty. Card counting, I use my brain to have an advantage. If the casino is not happy with this then change the rule of the game to prevent this i.e. continuous shuffler. If the rule of the casino said you cannot use your brain and I do, am I cheating? Hell no.

Advantage play is not cheating. Then I submit that the casino is cheating because none of their game is a fair game. All casino games has a house edge.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
Doc
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:32:24 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Card counting is a 100% known rule infraction by those who do it, and this cannot be denied.


Can't be denied? It's probably been denied a thousand times on this very site.

I think everyone understands that card counting is perfectly legal and that casinos generally dislike having effective card counters play their games. Those are issues representing related but different facts, and neither one completely counteracts the other.

Neither of those issues really answers the question of whether card counting is a "rule infraction." To me there can only be a rule infraction if there is a clear set of rules to the game. In order for the set of "rules" to be clear, they need to be written down so that everyone can see what is a rule and what is just a preference. I have never seen a written, public set of rules for casino blackjack that say that counting the cards is a violation of the rules. If there were such a rule, it would also require a definition of "counting" the cards -- what is within the rules and what is against the rules. Until that is done and presented publicly, I cannot accept that card counting is a violation of the rules; i.e., I deny it.
buzzpaff
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:38:46 PM permalink
Cheating is breaking the rules of a game: At last ,Dan admits counting is not cheating. I look forward to shaking his hand at dinner tomorrow !!
AceCrAAckers
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:40:13 PM permalink
If a player cheats in a casino he should be arrested and put in jail. Use loaded dice, marked cards, post bet etc...

If card counting is cheating, arrest that person a put him in jail. What will the casino say. Judge, this person used his brain to keep track of high and low cards in a shoe and beat us. Please lock him away.

Anyone in a casino using their brain to beat us is cheating.

This is BS
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
Paigowdan
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:44:57 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Can't be denied? It's probably been denied a thousand times on this very site.


This is absolutely true.

Quote: Doc

I think everyone understands that card counting is perfectly legal and that casinos generally dislike having effective card counters play their games. Those are issues representing related but different facts, and neither one completely counteracts the other.


The legality of cheating is utterly irrelevant: you can also cheat your nephew at Monopoly, and the Five-O won't be involved, and it's still cheating.
Some cheating is illegal and results in arrests (capping and pinching bets, marking cards, etc.) and some cheating isn't illegal in terms of county ordinance, but where casino response and expulsion is endorse and approved by law enforcement and the legal community (Yes, you may be backed off or expelled from the premises, and there's nothing you may legally do about it. If they don't like the way you play, you do not have to be serviced.)

Quote: Doc

Neither of those issues really answers the question of whether card counting is a "rule infraction." To me there can only be a rule infraction if there is a clear set of rules to the game. In order for the set of "rules" to be clear, they need to be written down so that everyone can see what is a rule and what is just a preference.


That card counting is an infraction is clear:
1. EVERY AP site discusses this, and is the rationale for camoflage.
2. Casinos themselves will respond, with everything from flat-betting you to barring you to expelling you from the property.

Quote: Doc

I have never seen a written, public set of rules for casino blackjack that say that counting the cards is a violation of the rules. If there were such a rule, it would also require a definition of "counting" the cards -- what is within the rules and what is against the rules.


I've seen it, but they are internal operation documents to casinos. Some pre-shift meetings include head shot or surveillance photos and description alerts of card counters and their methods, when and where they were previously backed off or expelled from casinos, etc.
The fact that casinos do not need to show these documents to the general public or to you upon demand is absolutely irrelevant; indeed, it would be bad public relations. The whole argument of "where IS IT WRITTEN THAT I MAY NOT DO THIS, I demand to see the Official Good Houskeeping UL listed Internal casino documents right away" may be met with a floorman who tells you "it's written on my lips, you're done for the night.
Quote: Doc

Until that is done and presented publicly, I cannot accept that card counting is a violation of the rules; i.e., I deny it.


You don't have to accept it, as you may be expelled, backed-off, or flat-betted against your will or wishes by a casino's will to do so. "Thanks for playing, Buddy, and good night!" kind of thing.

And believe me, if you get backed off or 86-ed from a casino, you weren't "using your brain" very well as a gambler or AP.
Not all AP is cheating. Using the best hand-setting methods at pai Gow is perfectly fine. Taking proper odds is fully fine. Studying the Racing form before choosing a horse is perfectly fine.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
weaselman
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:47:44 PM permalink
Dice setting is definitely cheating - it cheats people of their time and money by selling these outlandish claims to them. It is not cheating the casinos (in fact, I think, casinos should sponsor dice setting seminars as promotional events), but that does not make it honest.

Card counting is, of course, not cheating, because there is no rule being infracted. It cannot be denied.

Camouflage and flat-betting arguments actually confirm that point: sometimes a casino does not want you to count, so, they invent a special rule - you are only allowed to flat bet But until then, there is no rule against counting, thus no cheating can be possibly taking place.

"Internal operation documents" are not rules. You cannot possibly argue, that players are obliged to obey some mysterious documents, that are intentionally kept secret from them.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
Tiltpoul
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April 30th, 2012 at 5:53:30 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule (ORIGNAL POSTER AND POST)

This is mainly for Dan, since I presume he thinks anyone who does either is immoral.

Which makes you a bigger cheater - Counting at Blackjack or setting the dice in craps?



Quote: Forum Rules, Rule #12

No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member. This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. (Added 2/24/2012)



Since there have been other threads that have been started where this has been discussed ad nauseum, my personal feeling is this entire thread was started as a way to attack PaiGowDan. I believe everybody who is a regular contributor knows his position on these issues and thus this thread is unnecessary.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
Doc
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April 30th, 2012 at 6:06:38 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

That card counting is an infraction is clear:
1. EVERY AP site discusses this, and is the rationale for camoflage.
2. Casinos themselves will respond, with everything from flat-betting you to barring you to expelling you from the property.


No, this does not at all establish that it is a violation of the rules of the game. It indicates, as I said, that the casino doesn't like to have effective card counters play their games. They dislike it so much, they take actions against those players, but they aren't willing to publish a set of rules that say it isn't allowed.
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Doc

I have never seen a written, public set of rules for casino blackjack that say that counting the cards is a violation of the rules.

I've seen it, but they are internal operation documents to casinos.


If you are not willing to post it publicly as a rule, don't go around trying to claim that it is a rule. It's just a preference or a policy of the establishment. If a casino really thought it should be a rule, can you explain why they would not be willing to publish such a rule; i.e., post it prominently in a public space in the casino (like right on the table) rather than hiding it in the back room? Don't you have printed, official game rules that you distribute to potential players? Maybe you have the game described on your casino's web site? Do these public documents say anything about counting being a violation of the rules? I've never seen it, so I don't believe it is a real rule. Just something like Dean Werner's double secret probation.
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 6:19:23 PM permalink
Some of you are making up your own rules.

The Nevada Gaming Commission says dice setting, dice influencing, even dice control -- if it doesn't involve alterting the dice with sticky substances, shaving them, loading them, etc. -- is not only legal but it is, to quote Keith Copher prior to his retirement, "an expected part of the game."

The player is not supposed to be a random number generator. That's the funniest BS line I've read yet.

I invite any of you to post a different ruling from the Nevada Gaming Commission.
EvenBob
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April 30th, 2012 at 6:26:52 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

If a casino really thought it should be a rule, can you explain why they would not be willing to publish such a rule;



They can't publish it because they have no intention
of enforcing it fairly. They see counters all the time
who are really bad and lose large amounts of money.
They never get 86'd for breaking the sacred 'rule'.
Its the winners who get kicked out.

Casino's are really insidious places. They have secret
rules and when you break the rules, your picture is
taken without your consent, and its sent to the other
casinos in the area. Its better than getting your
fingers broke in the back room, which they'd still be
happily doing if they could.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 6:40:24 PM permalink
How do you mean by "publish." Is an official statement the same as publishing?

When I was with KCAL I did several stories about craps and casinos and dice sliding and the NGC went on record about how dice setting, influencing and controlling is legal.

I've written so many web articles on the subject that my head spins.

My latest: http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html Look at the entry for:

DICE CONTROL: IS IT LEGAL? IS IT POSSIBLE?
Update May 3, 2011

When one of you presents a quote from the NGC that says otherwise, then I'll pay attention. And I think it's about time that the Wizard make his own phone calls and put this issue to rest once and for all. Please.

Now, after we all realize that it's legal, we can discuss whether it works or not which is a valid topic.
MathExtremist
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:01:12 PM permalink
But here's the rub: if dice influencing actually did work, it would seem to more properly fall underneath the language of at least the NV definition of cheating. I've quoted this before, and I even wrote to the Clark County DA about it (albeit with no reply), but here's the relevant part of the statute:

Quote: Nevada Revised Statutes


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.
2. The words and terms defined in chapter 463 of NRS have the meanings ascribed to them in that chapter.

NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.

NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.
1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.
2. A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.


So if dice influencing is properly cheating under 465.083 and 465.015, then doing it is a felony, and so is conspiring to do it. That would seem to mean that all those dice influencing seminars are open conspiracies to cheat -- and the proprietors are guilty of many category B felonies. I wonder how those seminar teachers feel about that...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Doc
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:02:33 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

How do you mean by "publish." Is an official statement the same as publishing?


Is this in regard to my comments about publishing a blackjack rule forbidding card counting? I'll answer as if it is, but the rest of your post is about dice, so I'm not certain.

If the NGCB made an official statement about whether card counting violated the rules of blackjack or not, I would think that should be sufficient for anyone. I believe that they have indeed said it is not cheating, but that might not be exactly the same thing.

What I really meant was for the casino to make an open, public, written statement about card counting being against the rules and what constitutes card counting. It could be on their web sites; it could be posted on the wall in a public place; it could be on a placard sitting on the table, or it could be printed on the felt. Any of those would be fine for establishing a rule. But having it posted in a back room and discussed only in private management sessions does not constitute a viable way of making it part of the official rules of the game.
FinsRule
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:04:30 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

Quote: Forum Rules, Rule #12

No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member. This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. (Added 2/24/2012)



Since there have been other threads that have been started where this has been discussed ad nauseum, my personal feeling is this entire thread was started as a way to attack PaiGowDan. I believe everybody who is a regular contributor knows his position on these issues and thus this thread is unnecessary.



I am not attacking Dan for his position at all. I simply wanted to know if he thinks dice setting is worse than counting. I know his position on counting and now I know that he is okay with dice setting.

I think it's a spirited debate that he doesn't seem to mind.

I hope this wasn't seen as an attack because that's not at all what it was meant as.
Wizard
Administrator
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:14:41 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

This is mainly for Dan, since I presume he thinks anyone who does either is immoral.

Which makes you a bigger cheater - Counting at Blackjack or setting the dice in craps?



One thing I don't like is when someone sets up a thread that is either blatantly or thinly veiled to gang up on another member. I'm not saying that is the motive here, but it gets into that grey area. We all know Dan's opinion on this topic, so why rehash it again? I would have been fine with this if it didn't mention Dan's name. As it stands, let it be a warning that baiting the forum to attack one particular person is frowned upon my management.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
FinsRule
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:29:13 PM permalink
Not that anyone cares, but I think it bothers me that casinos allow dice setting because they don't think anyone can do it. Once even one person could prove they could do it, all craps games would change. It should either be cheating or not.
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:36:24 PM permalink
Mathextremist. the rule you quote has been quoted a gazillion times by those who claim that dice setting/influencing/controlling is a crime and the NGC has gone on record in various news media to say this regulation does not apply to dice setting/influencing/controlling. Period.
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:38:57 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Not that anyone cares, but I think it bothers me that casinos allow dice setting because they don't think anyone can do it. Once even one person could prove they could do it, all craps games would change. It should either be cheating or not.



Actually, some casinos do NOT allow dice setting and they are within their rights not to let you do it.

And yes, most casinos don't mind because they don't think it works... and when they do they set their own rules, just as they do with card counters.
AlanMendelson
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:42:38 PM permalink
Quote: Doc


What I really meant was for the casino to make an open, public, written statement about card counting being against the rules and what constitutes card counting. It could be on their web sites; it could be posted on the wall in a public place; it could be on a placard sitting on the table, or it could be printed on the felt. Any of those would be fine for establishing a rule. But having it posted in a back room and discussed only in private management sessions does not constitute a viable way of making it part of the official rules of the game.



I agree. I think that is a fair business practice. Players should not be put in jeopardy for rules they are not aware of. And this goes for dice setting too.

By the way, should players who know how to play optimum strategy at video poker be banned? Whats the difference between a skilled video poker player and a skilled dice shooter? And a skilled blackjack player?
Ibeatyouraces
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:53:34 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MrV
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April 30th, 2012 at 7:55:03 PM permalink
Alan, I've gone round and round with you on this issue on another board.

*sigh*

Dice setting, IF IT WORKED, but be proscribed by statute, i.e.:

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game ...

Clearly, a dice setter is attempting, through manipulation of the dice, to achieve a positive expectation, i.e. "alter the ... result of the game."

I agree that the casinos and the gaming authorities allow dice setting ... BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IT DOESN'T WORK.

Now, you just try to find some authority for the proposition that the casinos and the gaming officials believe that dice setting really works, and that they encourage it anyway ...

Go ahead, I'll wait.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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April 30th, 2012 at 9:07:36 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Neither one of these is an AP play.



What Dan never talks about is the obvious. There's
only one AP allowed and thats the casino. The casinos
advantage play trumps all other advantage play. Its
their ballgame and you play by their advantage rules
or you don't play. End of story.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rudeboyoi
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April 30th, 2012 at 9:39:41 PM permalink
if by law it isnt cheating, it isnt cheating. period.

and all this talk of correcting dealer mistakes in your favor i find akin to giving to charity. both are meant to make you feel better about yourself but cost you money in doing so. i think both are absolutely ridiculous. if you want to feel good about something, why not keep the error/donation and spend it on a gift/dinner on your family/friends instead? they are the only people that should matter in your life and may return the favor at some point in the future. screw the casino, they dont care about you.
QuadDeuces
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April 30th, 2012 at 9:50:53 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

And yes, most casinos don't mind because they don't think it works...



And aren't they in the best position to analyze, in a casino environment, the number of rolls it would take to make such a determination?
MathExtremist
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April 30th, 2012 at 10:42:19 PM permalink
Quote: QuadDeuces

And aren't they in the best position to analyze, in a casino environment, the number of rolls it would take to make such a determination?


The 720-roll sample size that Heavy likes to use yields a +/- 3SD of between 90 and 150 sevens under a uniform die-face distribution, and all of his allegedly-influenced results fall within that range. 720 rolls is roughly 7 hours of full-time shooting and over 50 hours at a fuller table. So unless a shooter was drastically influencing the dice, it would take hundreds of hours of actual game play to determine that a player was making a statistically-significant influence on the dice distribution. I doubt any casino has ever looked at hundreds of hours of tape to get a read on a single player. They don't have that much time to waste.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MrV
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April 30th, 2012 at 10:46:17 PM permalink
Scoblete claims he is barred from many casinos, due to his perceived success as a dice setter.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
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April 30th, 2012 at 11:05:19 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Scoblete claims he is barred from many casinos, due to his perceived success as a dice setter.



He can always pick up some easy money, accepting a dice setting challenge. But I am barred to. Disorderly conduct, lewd behavior and a few other charges designed to stop my crap action !
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 12:59:43 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Quote: Tiltpoul

Quote: Forum Rules, Rule #12

No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member. This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. (Added 2/24/2012)



Since there have been other threads that have been started where this has been discussed ad nauseum, my personal feeling is this entire thread was started as a way to attack PaiGowDan. I believe everybody who is a regular contributor knows his position on these issues and thus this thread is unnecessary.



I am not attacking Dan for his position at all. I simply wanted to know if he thinks dice setting is worse than counting. I know his position on counting and now I know that he is okay with dice setting.



1. Dice setting is A-okay if it is okay with the establishment, and not if it is restricted by the house, (and it usually is fine) - regardless of the fact county or state odinances do not address it - so as long as the gaming house addresses it one way or another, as "okay" or "not okay." The Boxman will tell you if it is a problem. I think it is fine, and I am a crap dealer. (Dealt to DJTeddyBear tonight, as a matter of fact.)

2. Card counting is not okay if the casino house or gambling hall restricts it internally. Doesn't matter if the issue is or is not addressed by county or state ordinances, so as long as it is addressed by the house - to include internal player tracking reports that restrict players from playing, and policies or barring or ejecting card counters, even if card counter do not like it or demand that they "MUST" see some "documentation" before being backed off and recorded and written up as casino threats in official casino reports that are actionable.

Quote: RudeBoi

if by law it isnt cheating, it isnt cheating. period.


Doesn't matter crap. The law says that cheating at Monopoly isn't cheating; it still is. Some cheating is just so petty and penny-ante or grey-area is isn't nominally covered by legal ordinances. The behavior still is what it is.
Guaranteed, if a casino bars or ejects a player, it is A-Okay with state attorneys and the local police departments. Out he goes, often in a casino operator's reporting of people who are "persona non-grata." If you were declared an actionable cheater by a casino house and were ejected for it, and this is okay by lawyers and police, you were pretty much a cheater who was fully treated as a cheater. And it was 100% technically legal. WTF. You are out on your ass and barred from play as a cheater in the eyes of casino operators, - with no jail time or police record, zero. And these casino actions endorsed by police and lawyers. Just because you are not a problem with the Supreme Court or technically in the eyes of the law doesn't mean you are not a problem or not a cheater. The actions unto thee declare otherwise. You are done for the night, buddy. And no, they are not going to tell you about the 8" by 10" color photos from surveillance and the reports on you, even if you ask. You're just done.

3. Active Hole carding, capping and pinching bets, and marking cards are illegal by county and state laws, and have gotten AP players and shot takers criminal records that had frequently jeopordized or destroyed employment opportunities in private and public sector work. Being formally arrested for casino fraud or cheating does have such an effect, and it has happened to people, especially if the surveillance manager and casino manager choose to involve LVPD or Henderson PD. This includes an incident at a xxx's property in 2006 where a 23-year old privledged kid was capping and pinching bets for laughs and giggles before he got arrested for it, turning an expensive college degree into mush for his future professional life, which essentially became non-existent and untouchable as a result; just a crying shame. (For that matter, a one-off DUI accident with a fatality in an otherwise unblemished life may also change a life in such a way.)

Look, people, I actually work in this business both in casino operations and as a game designer; if you think I am trying to shit you on this, then fine, think and do as you please.

Quote: Finsrule

I think it's a spirited debate that he doesn't seem to mind.


I love it, I love the juice of it all. Good debate, and I state the facts to you beloved forum members as an industry insider. No hard feelings to anyone, and no resentment meant or taken (although I know it is an impassioned for some dedicated AP players and forum members), but some AP play gets you backed off or ejected by a casino house as it is their right in this state, and some AP play is criminal, and sometimes produces mugshots and records. This is aside from the fact that it gets you labeled as persona non-grata at the very business you wish to patronize, apparently.

Quote: Finsrule

I hope this wasn't seen as an attack because that's not at all what it was meant as.


Impassioned debates can get a little bit "ad hominen"; you just plow through and present points.
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P90
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:18:38 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Some cheating is just so petty and penny-ante or grey-area is isn't nominally covered by legal ordinances.
3. Active Hole carding, capping and pinching bets, and marking cards are illegal by county and state laws


So... the reason counting is not covered by law is because counting is so petty and so penny-ante, but bet pinching isn't?
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Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:46:57 AM permalink
Quote: P90

So... the reason counting is only not covered by law is because counting is so petty and so penny-ante, but bet pinching isn't?


Yes and no.
Card cointing is an arguable area, and it is because the game of Blackjack was thought to be totally uncountable and viable in its original design and form, when Edward O. Thorpe had later shown otherwise.
Since by that point in time the game of Blackjack was established as a VERY primary casino game - it was kept for the legions of "good faith" players who play it as a recreation and as a "luck" (variance-based) gambling game, with counter-measures such as ejection and barring for those who are viewed as asbusers of the game's original intentions.

Also note that extremely specific and planned additional, deliberate actions, (elaborate actions if you will, really) MUST be undertaken - and these actions are considered to be bad-faith and "cheating" to some degree in view of the game's historic origins as a "seemingly uncountable" game. These actions of card-counting are actually obvious and apparent bad-faith play, they require extensive training measures and practices to implement for the "practitioner," - to include math abilities and the clear knowledge that it is against the rules (hence all the camoflage training with it) - in order to use this "illicit game loophole" on static deck and shoe-based games.

It is not arguable that this is "technically legal." So is vomiting during a Wedding Mass, cheating on your wife, and cheating kids at Monopoly.

It is not arguable that getting barred from casino play, when it is a primary source of your life's interest and recreation, is NOT using your brains - when you are barred and expelled from a casino for it when you don't want to be. Being the mouse in the cat-n-mouse game is never smart, should you decide to play THAT game.

It is also pretty much not arguable that it is indeed considered cheating or bad-faith play in the eyes of casino operators who bar, expel, and track AP players via internal reports to address this issue, and no, they don't need to show you shit in terms of documentation or written pronouncements on it to tell you to play Roulette or leave the premises.

It is not arguable that a casino may bar or expel a player who practices this, at least in the majority of the states that offer Blackjack, and for the sake of the clientele who don't need to practice all this jazz for a night out on the town with some gaming action.

It is not arguable that this crap drives up the cost for all players via surveillance and pit monitoring, tracking, and reporting for some AP players who are lucky to make some additional gas money for a pickup truck at this point in time in the gaming industry.

It is not arguable that surveillance crews and pit personnel view all this AP crap (counting, hole-carding, shot-taking, etc.) with rolled eyes and of the sentiment of "Get a better day time job, buddy, and give everyone a break...", even though all these actions have different levels of legalities at the court house. In the table games pit, it is ALL a drag.....

It is also pretty clear that card-counting is both a lousy career option, and a lousy way to try to make money, aside from the illicit jollies it gives some people, and is a drag on casino operator's surveillance and pit operations. (When I was a kid living in New York City in the 1970's, I used to get kicks out of sneaking into the subways without paying my fare, and buying beer underage, too.) I've outgrown this long before I entered gaming...
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buzzpaff
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:50:32 AM permalink
" those who are viewed as asbusers of the game's original intentions. "

by that you mean those who are cable of winning ??
buzzpaff
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:52:54 AM permalink
" When I was a kid living in New York City in the 1970's, I used to get kicks out of sneaking into the subways without paying my fare, and buying beer underage, too"

Dan. both those example were you not using your brain.

Counting is using my brain !
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 1:58:23 AM permalink
Not if you get barred, expelled, flat-betted, and shown the parking lot.
And to have everyone in casino operations roll their eyes, muttering, "another clown with a 1960's Edward Thorpe fantasy of himself" while being shown the door.
As both a career option and as a gambling pasttime endeavor, it cries, "Get a life..."

Card counting is dead, and has been for a LOOONG time.

Get on the Poker circuit and make some money there through best play.

Edit: I didn't mean to be so rough, but card counting is really dead as a gaming option, an absolute relic. The fantasy of some casino handing over Millions to men in disguises playing $50,000 pretending to be the son of the president of Toshiba at the Rio ain't happening.

We've backed off a counter betting between $5 a hand to $75 on a double deck and still losing, at 3AM on a Tuesday morning, where an old lady playing slots gave him a $20 for him to get gas for his rusted old pickup truck. Floormen wanted to cry, it was that pathetic. This is what card counting has come to.

Just shamelessly desperate and just not working anymore.

The only two AP plays in gaming are now this, and don't kid yourself otherwise:
1. Gambling is a recreation for those not in the business. It can hurt you if you kid yourself.
2. It is either a rude job or a decent career - for those who are in the business.


That is it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:03:33 AM permalink
Never been barred. I am low limit enough to fly under the radar. Just making a little money to tip the dealer and play slots.
I do not consider my action cheating in any way.
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:13:34 AM permalink
Fine.
If the little extra change helps you, and clealy it is okay with the crew, then...

Good for you.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:17:46 AM permalink
" We've backed off a counter betting between $5 a hand to $75 on a double deck "
Just a 15 to 1 spread and you guys picked that up LOL
Face will be jealous. I hear there are a few opening in Secret Service recently for such talented people.
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:25:37 AM permalink
Nickel and Quarter action ain't shit at any house.
Counting it down for gas money is just hard up.
Pity, yes, - jealousy, no.
He was stopped from playing as a favor to him.
From the crew.
No cops were called.
here's $20 for gas.
goodnight.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
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May 1st, 2012 at 2:48:17 AM permalink
" No cops were called." Of course no cops were called. He had done NOTHING illegal. RIGHT !!!
Paigowdan
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May 1st, 2012 at 3:01:40 AM permalink
Not the point.
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P90
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May 1st, 2012 at 3:06:42 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Card cointing is an arguable area,


Yes, it is. Like you almost but not quite said above, counting is not cheating, but a gray area.
What shade of gray? Let's see.
Jurisdictions where card counting is illegal: None.
Jurisdictions where card counting is legal, but casinos may ban players for it: Some of US (Nevada, others)
Jurisdictions where card counting is legal, and casinos may not ban players for it: Some of US (New Jersey), Europe, most of the rest of the world
Considering that casinos on the second list may also ban players for no reason at all, that makes it a very light shade - one falling far short of actual cheating.


Quote: Paigowdan

It is not arguable that this is "technically legal." So is vomiting during a Wedding Mass, cheating on your wife, and cheating kids at Monopoly.

It is not arguable that you are a human being. So are Casey Anthony, Bernie Madoff and Anders Breivik.

Quote: Paigowdan

When I was a kid living in New York City in the 1970's, I used to get kicks out of sneaking into the subways without paying my fare, and buying beer underage, too.

You were not alone. Other kids living in NYC used to get kicks out of spraying streets with submachineguns, too.
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