Santa Ana

Quote: scotty81

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No, they don't require any additional bets. You can walk up, place the 4 or 10 only, and get paid 2:1 if you win. The same way with the field (triple 2/12). They have been offering this game for at least three years that I know about.

I don't live in ABQ, but will be going back next month. Every time I go, I expect the game to be changed, but it has always been the same. I can report back next time I go.

This statement was made in another thread, and I started a new thread so it doesnt get lost. Can this be for real? Repeating my questions here, are you REALLY saying that there is a bet you could bet all day long and not be up against a house edge? Isn't 2:1 free odds? What's the explanation? that ain't paying the rent!

edit: the link *seems* to possibly confirm that: http://www.santaanastar.com/gaming/table-games

additional edit: dice-setters could prove themselves here, no? supposedly there is a roll that is failsafe if it stays on axis for the 4 or 10 [both? not sure]

I'm already planning my trip to Santa Ana Star. They have 99.96% DDB video poker as well.

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The answer is: yes

The Santa Ana is one of the more successful casinos in ABQ, and is associated with the upscale Hyatt Tamaya resort. I believe this game is used as a promotion to bring people into the casino, and as such it is quite successful.

Ok. So you can battle the casino with no vig all day long. How many people have the dicipline to do that without making other (stupid) craps bets, or playing the slots & other table games? When you really stop to think about it, it is a very inexpensive way to get gamblers with money in their pockets into the casino.

Plus, even given a no-vig game, the majority of the people playing will tap out just because they can't take the fluctuations. I'm sure the Wizard could tell us how long the average player (say, with $300) would last before the eventual downturn.

The fact that this game has lasted as long as it has is a testament to how difficult dice shooting really is. They are daring dice shooters to come in and do their thing. Last I looked, they are doing a land office business.

Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr

Wow. That's great!


Note: Do not that the mention on the website is confirmation that it still exists.

Without too much poking around, I saw an ad for a $9.95 dinner on Christmas Eve. Clearly, the website is out of date, so it can't be trusted. I'm not saying the no vig 4/10 is gone. I'm just saying don't assume. On the flip side, I saw no mention of the triple 2/12 field. But, again, no reason to assume that means anything either.


Quite frankly, if they've been doing it for at least three years, ya gotta figure that they've crunched the numbers a couple times already, and still have it. After all, it's a great way to get them in the door.

Re: Reducing the House Edge to Zero....

I have played Craps for many years, but one thing I have not tried is to play someone else's odds. Particularly at places that have a high odds multiple (10x, 20x, 100x), many players to do not take full odds. What does the Casino think about someone else taking the rest of someone's odds? It's more common in BJ to have people bet behind you, what about odds in Craps? I suppose I could plan a trip around my friends from this board who think taking the odds on the Don't is a bad bet and play their lays for them...

I have often wondered if a zero house edge game would be a draw for a casino. I would think that they still have the risk of ruin working for them. Casinos routinely sell food at a loss, and drinks at a loss, and they readily admit that they only have sports and race as a way to draw people in who will hopefully try their luck on something else. Even people who live in Vegas are toying with the idea of driving 600 miles to this casino simply to play a zero house edge bet.

No one has mentioned what the maximum bet is on this no vig game. It may be only $20.

I see people at the El Cortez play a single deck blackjack game and make huge bets with little or no regard for strategy. I've seen people play the minimum on the blackjack game, and then put 20X as much on the side bet.

Quote: pacomartin

I have often wondered if a zero house edge game would be a draw for a casino. I would think that they still have the risk of ruin working for them.

Surely common player's Ruin would help limit the action, as would a stingy bet limit. I've been thinking about this overnight. I guess they count on what we all see at the craps table, most players being lured into sucker betting, or just some pass line betting. The type of guys they really don't want there ... guys who stubbornly stick to the the best bet ... might not be drawn there, as there is no player advantage either outside of complimentary drinks.

Assuming there is a certain amount of undesirable action, maybe it is less of a big deal. If the casino can't win on zero HE, they also can't be hurt, except for maybe those drinks. Increased overhead must otherwise be minimal.

It sure as hell shows that Bean Counters are for the time being cut out of participating in these decisions. This would never fit in to what they advocate, and they would argue against continuing this even though it may be working . With me they are pretty famous for cutting out service that was once offered with various companies, pointing out the temporary improvement to the bottom line. The long term effect on future sales due to disappointment about resultant poor service is never factored into Bean Counter calculations.

Quote: odiousgambit

the casino can't win on zero HE, they also can't be hurt, except for maybe those drinks. Increased overhead must otherwise be minimal.

So we're all in agreement that it's 100 percent impossible to beat a zero edge game; that there's no betting strategy or money management strategy to transform it into positive expectation? (Except dice setting.)

Seems like the zero edge Field Bet mentioned above would be less volatile than the 4 & 10 bets. I can envision a LONG losing streak of roll after roll with no 4 or 10...

As for the bean counters: if they're competent, they comprehend the usefulness of loss-leaders.

At the casino I play, one person frequently hands me a nickel and asks me to put it on my odds. He likes 4 and 10 and usually puts a nickel on it. When it comes up on the point and I am not at full odds, he'll throw me the nickel and I'll increase the odds. The casino doesn't care.

Casinos use short term zero house edge bets all of the time to bring in patrons. I've never seen a permanent zero house edge (the free buy, and the triple on 2 and 12 field bet) like is advertised at Santa Ana. I guess if I were close to Santa Ana, I would be working the field and 4 and 10 bets. The issue with both of these bets however is that these are difficult to Martingale because the 4 and 10 only hit 1/3rd of the time, while the Field bet only hits 16/36 times, so you run against bankroll issues.

Short term zero house edge, like the Grand Victoria's $1000 promotion to anyone throwing 6 points (no bet required), all of those free and match play coupons, and some crazy Vegas promotions that pay triple on blackjack on certain days of the week.

I talked to the pit boss and he confirms that they have the triple 2 and triple 12 bet on the field, and they pay double and the 4 and 10 with no vig. He said that they do not require that people play pass line bets, but so far no one has abused us so they keep it as a promotion.

Possibly if you keep playing one for the boys, they won't bug you.

Don't they usually not require a line bet when you are playing the field? I see people making just field bets all the time. I also see people placing numbers without a line bet often -- you know, the guy that waits until the point is rolled and then takes "$128 across" (or whatever it is).

Boymimbo: all the things you mentioned in your second paragraph are plus E.V. situations. The 6 points for 1,000 would not require that much bankroll -- just make the minimum line bet and wait around for somebody to catch fire. The 3-1 blackjack, same thing, and the coupons likewise.

I sent them an e-mail and they replied saying they indeed have the liberal prop bets discussed. So I say kudos to the Santa Ana!

Quote: teddys

Don't they usually not require a line bet when you are playing the field? I see people making just field bets all the time. I also see people placing numbers without a line bet often -- you know, the guy that waits until the point is rolled and then takes "$128 across" (or whatever it is).

Boymimbo: all the things you mentioned in your second paragraph are plus E.V. situations. The 6 points for 1,000 would not require that much bankroll -- just make the minimum line bet and wait around for somebody to catch fire. The 3-1 blackjack, same thing, and the coupons likewise.

They don't USUALLY require a Pass line for the Field Bet, but I think we suggested they might require it because of it's Zero EV.

I checked the gaming board, and New Mexico made $701 million for the the last 12 months that they reported. In comparison, Laughlin made $799 million for the same period.

Santa Ana is ranked #5 for the state with gaming revenue of $70 million. So it is smaller than Texas Station. I hope some of the local Vegas casinos adopt this policy. Still I would think they would restrict it 5X or 10X the pass line bet.

The Grand Victoria promotion was available only to the shooter. As for the other ones, yes, a positive, short term, positive expectation.

I just wanted to provide an update:

The wife and I stopped in last night for a little gaming after dinner.

I played craps for just shy of 2 hours.

It is now a Double on the 2 and Triple on the 12 Field Bet.

The Free buy on the 4 and 10 remains, even with a $5 place bet.

I could not get a seat at the >100% payback $1 VP machine bank(8).

There are 4 games loaded in, JOB/BP/DW and DDB.

Royal Progressive was over $8000!

May other casinos of the world take note!