Pai Gow Poker Envy Bonus

While I'm on the subject of making table games better, maybe Paigowdan can answer this question for me...

Why can't the envy bonus just apply to the dealer's hand as well? The envy part of the bonus cuts the house edge of the bet so little that I think letting the dealer's hand count toward the envy bonus would be a nice little benefit.

It'd be great to have the dealer get a royal flush with no top and everyone at the table be delighted.

Dan, make this happen!

I have not played there, but at least one casino in NE Iowa pays the envy on the dealer's hand.
First royal I ever witnessed in PGP was the dealer's hand at the MGM Grand.

I vaguely remember a hand when I took the bank and it resulted in the house (obviously playing against me) having a very good hand. I don't think the players, who consequently didn't get the envy, were too happy about it.

I always think where there's a bet that can have an annoying factor (obvious one is 5-card poker where your straight flush bonus isn't paid if the dealer doesn't qualify) it eventually p***es off punters.

Quote: PlayYourCardsRight

I have not played there, but at least one casino in NE Iowa pays the envy on the dealer's hand.

Thank you!! I knew I'd been somewhere this year that paid based on the dealer's hand.

Quote: FinsRule

While I'm on the subject of making table games better, maybe Paigowdan can answer this question for me...

Why can't the envy bonus just apply to the dealer's hand as well? The envy part of the bonus cuts the house edge of the bet so little that I think letting the dealer's hand count toward the envy bonus would be a nice little benefit.

It'd be great to have the dealer get a royal flush with no top and everyone at the table be delighted.

Dan, make this happen!

Fins, Envy is an arbitrary rule - it can be "declared" to pay on any hand, including the dealer's, possibly with submitting a rule change to gaming. This change WILL reduce the HA of the bonus bet by about 0.8%, because of the additional envy payout possibility.

Quote: Paigowdan

Fins, Envy is an arbitrary rule - it can be "declared" to pay on any hand, including the dealer's, possibly with submitting a rule change to gaming. This change WILL reduce the HA of the bonus bet by about 0.8%, because of the additional envy payout possibility.

So you're saying, that you as the game designer cannot make that part of your bonus rules?

Quote: FinsRule

So you're saying, that you as the game designer cannot make that part of your bonus rules?

No, not at all. I certainly could have, - but simply chose not to. Why? Well for two reasons:
1. The concept of Envy was to envy the other players, not the dealer, as a semantic decision.
2. It would reduce the house edge with no offsetting "dealer type bet."
If there is enough demand to include the dealer's hand for Envy payouts, it will be considered (and probably be dismissed, in all honesty) by casino operators and my distributor.

Thanks for the feedback.

On a side note, I'm always more envious of dealer's hands than I am of other players' hands.

Quote: FinsRule

Thanks for the feedback.

On a side note, I'm always more envious of dealer's hands than I am of other players' hands.

Agreed... funny story on EZ Pai Gow from my last Council Bluffs trip...

I was playing both sides of the bonus (Insurance and High Hand). I turn over a Jack-high Pai Gow, which pays a respectable 15-1 on the bonus. I was pretty happy, as I was going to make $50 on the hand.... dealer turns over, a 9-high Pai Gow... sure I won the hand, but I'd rather get $500 and lose, rather than the $70 win!

You still get the same bonus payouts regardless of main hand win-or-lose result.
A nine-high?? I once caught one with $7 on insurance - $700 big ones. My wife took five black chips, and left me two, to play craps after PGP. She explained to me that "it's not your money - it's OUR money....that's different!" Oh....
By the way, insurance is a great bet, IMO. ANYTIME you make money on your losers you're a genius. I disagree with some pundits on this.

Actually, we have noticed that games with PG Insurance actually have lower holds, as it diverts a lot of money back to the players on hands otherwise fully lost, because both the bonus table and insurance tables are somewhat bottom-heavy, or biased to overpay on lower hits than higher wins. This causes a "canceling" effect (similar to simultaneous play of pass line and don't pass bets) - as many players' losers are effectively winners.

When a deck is "out of norm," with a lot of "outside hands" (bonus hands occuring along with a lot of pai gows), the money comes out of the rack. Tables with both bets have a negative effect on table hold, as few player sessions have hands that are strictly limited to one and two pairs only. A lot of casino operators order the game's layout felt with no Pai Gow insurance bets on them, for a reason. It is a trend.

Quote: Paigowdan

By the way, insurance is a great bet, IMO. ANYTIME you make money on your losers you're a genius. I disagree with some pundits on this.

Actually, we have noticed that games with PG Insurance actually have lower holds, as it diverts a lot of money back to the players on hands otherwise fully lost,

I've wondered about this.

When I researched PGP before my last trip, back in 2010, I didn't take the insurance bet into account. But when i encoutnered it I figured it was justa nother bad side bet. Latter research, by which I mean the Wizard's main site, confirmed this.

But I also noticed no player ever made the insurance bet where I played. A delaer commented on the bet once, saying most players don't take it because they feel they're betting against themselves.

But I wondered if it would be a good bet when banking, if it pays when you're banking nad get a stinker of a nothing hand.

Now I'm wondering again. I suppose I'll make it next time

If I'm playing $10 or $15, I might throw 1 or 2 out on insurance. If I get an ace high pai gow, the hand is suddenly much more exciting because a pai gow push turns into a win. I love the insurance bet.