EZ Pai Gow at Golden Nugget disliked by dealers

I was in Vegas a couple weeks ago so my wife could run in the 1/2 marathon. Even though we were staying on the strip (Aria) we went downtown to gamble a couple of times because we sometimes enjoy the old-school atmosphere and better gambling deals. I was happy to see EZ Pai Gow at the Nugget after having read about it on this forum, and we gave it a try.

First let me say that my wife and I both enjoy PGP as our primary casino game. We like to sit, socialize with the other players, and stretch our bankroll at a slower paced game while enjoying the "free" drinks. I was quite curious to try EZ Pai Gow. I did enjoy it and liked the lack of change for commission. I even played the pai gow protection bet a couple of times and I normally never play the bonus bet. An interesting thing happened when the inevitable occurred and the dealer made a queen high pai gow. There were several players at the table and they were all confused initially as to why it was not a win. I mentioned that this was the situation where the casino made back the commissions they hadn't been paying. The dealer got somewhat agitated and said to a guy that had bet $10, "look you are paying $10 commission on this hand, that is why you should play over there!" (pointing to a standard PGP table.) I told the dealer it came out about the same either way (I was pretty sure of this having checked out the info on wizard of odds.) She just kept saying, "look, $10 commission" implying EZ Pai Gow was a lot worse.

The next day we were back again and the EZ PGP table was full. We played standard PGP in a different pit and discussion turned to EZ PGP. One guy was very excited about the no commission and expressed the opinion it was a lot better than paying commission (obviously this is the customer the casino is looking for.) I said I liked it but I thought the odds worked out about the same. The current dealer (not the same one as the previous day) said she didn't like it but didn't give a reason. Later a third dealer (at standard PGP) was asked about pai gow insurance and told the player no. I mentioned to the player that the EZ PGP offered a similar bet. This dealer proudly stated that the Nugget was the only Vegas casino with EZ PGP so it seems that not all the dealers dislike it. She was also the best of the dealers I encountered, FWIW.

I was curious as to why the dealers are anti-EZ PGP, at least at the Golden Nugget. I can think of a few possibilities:

1) Players get angry when the queen high pai-gow comes up. They have to deal with angry players and get fewer tokes.
2) Fewer $1 chips in play means fewer tokes.
3) Dealers are bad at math and actually think it is worse for players.
4) A slightly simpler game means their experience may not be valued as much in the casino.

I was curious if other players have encountered a negative attitude about EZ vs. standard PGP from the dealers. If so, why do you think they dislike it?

This was also the first time I have played PGP where the tables had card reader with the house way /commission calculator screen. I saw it at the Golden Nugget and the Aria. The best dealers never activated it but some used it every time. I disliked when the dealer activated it because it removed the suspense of the sweat as the dealer spread out the cards and manually arranged them.

I hope Dan sees your post and heads over to the GN to bust some heads.

If the dealers at the GN can't explain the push hand better, what do they tell a player with a monster at Caribbean Stud, or 3 or 4 Card Poker, or whatever, and the dealer doesn't qualify?


EZPG is also at Fiesta Henderson, where PaiGowDan, it's inventor, works as a dealer. It may be in other Vegas casinos.

As I mentioned in another thread, the one time I played at Fiesta, I played for quite a while one evening, and never saw that dealer's Queen high hand. It was a pleasure to play and not have to screw around with those friggin' quarters. The dealers were quite friendly and liked the game. Whether that's genuine or because they saw me talking to Dan while he was dealing craps, and knew I was his friend, I'll never know.

The next morning, I had time to kill, so I sat down again. The first hand out, the dealer had the Queen high. As it happened, I also had a bad/marginal hand, and was hoping for a push. It WOULD have been a push at standard PGP, so I had no reason to complain when it was an automatic push.

But the thing is, I immediately had the impresstion that if I had lost that hand, I probably would still have been ahead from not paying the commission the night before.

As it turned out, this dealer also liked the game because she didn't have to deal with the quarters.


For what it's worth, the math makes it marginally better for the players. It's still a good game for the house, but the edge is slightly lower. The house likes it, and is willing to give up that very slight portion of their edge, because the game plays faster.

Quote: jml24

I was curious as to why the dealers are anti-EZ PGP, at least at the Golden Nugget. I can think of a few possibilities:

1) Players get angry when the queen high pai-gow comes up. They have to deal with angry players and get fewer tokes.
2) Fewer $1 chips in play means fewer tokes.
3) Dealers are bad at math and actually think it is worse for players.
4) A slightly simpler game means their experience may not be valued as much in the casino.

I was curious if other players have encountered a negative attitude about EZ vs. standard PGP from the dealers. If so, why do you think they dislike it?

I can tell you the number 1 reason they wouldn't like it. My guess is most of the dealers at the GN are as jaded and bitter as PaiGowDan (just kidding, kind of). They don't like new games or having to change a routine. They don't like the extra bonuses and probably have made mistakes in dealing it (even though it's infinitely simpler to deal) and they are mad and taking it out on players. Their distaste for the game has NO place in the casino, and hopefully, something is said to prevent other players from hearing this.

The game DOES have a higher house edge than the original game, so it's not the fact that it's a lower house edge. It deals a bit faster, so more hands per hour means a bit more work. If a dealer doesn't care for it, a simple "Well, it's not one I would play, but I can see the appeal in the game for some players" is the correct way to address the issue with players.

I'm curious about your assertion that EZ Pai Gow has a higher house edge. According to wizardofodds.com EZ Pai Gow has a 2.46% house edge while PGP with commission is 2.73%. This assumes no banking because you can't bank with the EZ rules.

If I were to bank to the maximum possible extent then the standard game would have a much lower house edge, but I, like almost all players, never bank. I very rarely see any players banking. I don't bank because I don't like to risk such a large portion of my buy in on one hand. It also tends to disturb the social atmosphere at the table with the other players viewing me as opposition. I can (and sometimes do) play in the poker room if I want that type of interaction.

On this whole thread, the dealers are quite often mistaken about house edge, odds, procedures, etc., which is a part of the reason that they're dealers not not TGD's (table games directors).

1. Firstly, the house edge is the same between the queen-high and the 5% commission, it's just that every win is full 100% pay, NOT 95% after the commission by eliminating just a single hand, the Queen-high Pai Gow. The Queen-high occurs once in every 58 hands, - or 1.7%. When you account for the few hands that would have pushed anyway (such as a straight with a 3-2 top, etc.) it works out to about 1.5% to the HE. By comparison, when you realize that players win their hands 30% of the time, and then pay a 5% commission on that 30% win rate, that also works out to 1.5% - but without the fumbling or delays involved in making change, the reduction of hands per hour, and all the errors due to the commission.

2. I constantly play EZ pai Gow both at the Cannery, and at the Golden Nugget. They (- for the most part) do not know who I am, I just play. At the Cannery, ALL three tables are constantly jammed up, from day shift up through graveyard. I just now came back from the Cannery with my wife, and played for an hour at 3PM today (Tuesday, 12/20), being alerted to this thread upon coming home. My wife couldn't play with me at the (East Side) Cannery - because I got the last open seat, so she had to play slots. I also checked on it on Weekday overnights at 3AM after work, and it's jammed up then, too. Same with the Golden Nugget, not once did I see an empty table. The point I am trying to make is that in spite of a few dealers gripping about this and that, ALL of them say, "It beats the sh]t out of constantly making needless change all the time!" - and they do appreciate it. Trust me, - Dealers gripe because it is Tuesday and it is freaking raining! The simple fact of the matter is that both players and casino managers themselves seem to prefer this game: We installed fifty tables EZ pai Gow tables from California to Biloxi, and not a single one of these operators, (I mean all of them) never pulled the product, but instead increased the numbers of tables. The Cannery group is now 100% EZ Pai Gow; all of their tables are 100% EZ pai gow, and patronage went through the roof. I can tell you that at the Fiesta, the single Pai Gow table out drops ALL of the Fortune pai Gow tables combined, and I work there. I would clearly have more if it weren't for the involvement of corporate politics. I deal it perhaps once or twice a month, as I am almost always used to deal dice, but I have never seem it empty or closed a single night on swing shift in the past two years it's been there.

3. Just about all of the skitishness involves "old school thinking," and the fact that the game is newer and different, and therefore "new fangled" to the minds of many old school dealers - of which there are legions! (In this regard, thank God for management.) Do take note that the that the Pai Gow "push" mechanism occurs once in every 58 hands, and NOT one in three hands, like in Three card poker, and is essentially a very mild issue, if not an outright non-issue for the game. By comparison, I hear Three-card poker players saying "C'mon, qualify dealer! - I have a flush" when 30% of the time the dealer does NOT qualify; compare this to 1.7% of the time in EZ pai Gow, and you'll see a dealer's qualification mechanism that kicks in so rarely it's barely visible.

4. After playing it and dealing it for a while, the players and dealers do notice that the game plays more smoothly and quickly without the commission or having 25 cent pieces in the rack, and get past of the "newness" factor of the game, which is all it is. The fact of the matter is that people really end up noticing that they'd always constantly pay in constant commissions for EVERY win they scratch out, and in the end they do not miss it. I once heard a player complain about pushing with the queen high, only to hear the dealer say "If I had gotten a full house, I would have TAKEN your money, would that have been better?!" followed by "Your King-high hand pushed as a favor to you, because that hand usually loses!" The player responded to this by saying, "you know - you're right!"

As for tokes, players generally tip on a bonus hand wins, which is unaffected and irrelevant to having dollar chips. Indeed, when a player wins a four-of-a-kind or better, the LAST thing a dealer wants to see is to be tipped in WHITE $1 chips instead of Red or Green chips!

The fact that the dealer mistakenly said that the Nugget was the only place in Vegas that offers EZ pai Gow shows what "dealers know," - and I say this as a both a dealer and a game designer, even if trying to give a compliment. EZ pai Gow is at the Fiesta Henderson, a Stations property, and at the Rampart, the East Side Cannery and Cannery North in Las Vegas. It's also at Primm Valley in Nevada, also.

At this point in time, the dealers and players there say, "Come to think of it, this change REALLY improved the game of Pai Gow poker" after having griped about the game, simply because it was not initially "what they had been used to." That's all.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. Firstly, the house edge is the same between the queen-high and the 5% commission, it's just that every win is full 100% pay, NOT 95% after the commission by eliminating just a single hand, the Queen-high Pai Gow. The Queen-high occurs once in every 58 hands, - or 1.7%. When you account for the few hands that would have pushed anyway (such as a straight with a 3-2 top, etc.) it works out to about 1.5% to the HE. By comparison, when you realize that players win their hands 30% of the time, and then pay a 5% commission on that 30% win rate, that also works out to 1.5% - but without the fumbling or delays involved in making change, the reduction of hands per hour, and all the errors due to the commission.

Very informative, thanks Dan. I'm afraid I don't understand how you and the Wizard get such a different evaluation on HE. Hmmm, see edit. He does include pushes in that evaluation(go about halfway down the page). I was wondering if you could explain the difference. Edit: I may have figured it out, there is something about "fully wild joker" in the WoO analysis. Another edit: I would expect a joker though.

Does he need to do a new analysis these days? If he doesnt reply here, I would encourage him to do so. The difference between what you say is HE and what he says is HE is a difference that might keep me from playing the game.

Quote: Wizard

EZ Pai Gow Poker Analysis

The following table [see link] shows the house edge when the player is not banking, assuming both the player and dealer or banker follow the same house way strategy. The lower right cell shows a house edge of 2.54%.

Quote: odiousgambit

Very informative, thanks Dan. I'm afraid I don't understand how you and the Wizard get such a different evaluation on HE. Hmmm, see edit. He does include pushes in that evaluation(go about halfway down the page). I was wondering if you could explain the difference. Edit: I may have figured it out, there is something about "fully wild joker" in the WoO analysis. Another edit: I would expect a joker though.

Does he need to do a new analysis these days? If he doesnt reply here, I would encourage him to do so. The difference between what you say is HE and what he says is HE is a difference that might keep me from playing the game.

Without getting into the details of any proprietary DEQ gaming reports, Let me show how the house edge is generated for both games, in a way that anyone can grasp and verify;

Regular Commission Pai Gow Poker:
1. Basically a fairly heads up (even) game, with a commission of 5% on player wins.
2. Player wins 29% of the time, player loses 30% of the time, player pushes 41% of the time. There is about a 0.9% house edge effect from player-dealer "copies," where a hand side is a duplicate or match (AK versus AK, etc), where the banking house wins. This provides a 0.9% house edge effect unto itself.
3. a 5% commission is charged on player wins at 29% of the time= 5% of 29% is 1.45%.
4. Combined house edge is ~2.35%

EZ Pai Gow no commission:
1. Basically a fairly heads up (even) game, with no commission of 5% on player wins.
2. Player wins 29% of the time, player loses 30% of the time, player pushes 41% of the time. There is about a 1% house edge effect from player-dealer "copies," where a hand side is a duplicate or match (AK versus AK, etc), where the banking house wins. This provides a 1% house edge effect (0.9%)unto itself.
3. Dealer declares a non-qualifier push when he has exactly a Queen-high Pai Gow hand (just that one hand only). This occurs 1.72% of the time, or about once in every 58 hands. Dealer would normally lose this hand 87% of the time, push it 12% of the time [player has a flush with 7-6 top, or a Pai Gow hand also with no top, etc...], and win it (against a player's rare and ridiculously low Pai Gow hand or jack-high or less) at 0.8% of the time. 1.72% * 87* - 1.72% * 0.8% = 1.46% effect addition to house edge, replacing commission.
4. Combined house edge is ~ 2.36%

There's more (let me post this much...)
1. The table hold seems to be a few points higher for the same house edge HE, - because you're now dealing about 20% more hands without stopping to calculate commission and then make change. I play at the Cannery, and it really zooms, some of their dealers just fly. This is good, because I'm there for my Pai Gow juice, not to watch dealers calculate commissions and cut out chunky payouts with white chips with quarters on top.

2. Because you have some sessions where NO dealer queen-highs occur, ALL the wins of your session is full pay, so instead of winning $170, you take out $200, because of no compounded 5% losses from the commission. Usually though, I see one or two Dealer Queen high hands, so I come out the same - just quicker off the table. I get as many hands in a 50 minute session at the Cannery that I had with a 1 hour and 10 minute session at Sunset Station.

3. The actual math report had a 2.34% to a 2.47% range on simulation runs, modeling 5,000,000 Pai Gow hands, so the algebraic math I did came in closely to Charles Mousseau's final report. My original spec for EZ Pai Gow was to use an even lower qualifier (Jack-high and less) but with a six-page house way, and DEQ said that NO casino operator would use a harder startegy for a game, and go with a higher qualifier, still rare at 58 hands per non-qualifier occurence. The same thing happened with Hong Kong Poker, the qualifer mechanism and the whole kit submitted was spot on. I go through my game designs exhaustively BEFORE I submit it to the mathematician

4. The argument from the Golden Nugget dealer that the queen-high push is a "$10 commission" is codswallop. The absence of a constant percentage commission charge is the absence of a commission itself. Every player win is 100% full pay every time in EZ Pai Gow. The Queen-high push averages once in every 58 deals - or about 1.7% of the time, which may or may not even occur in your session, - as opposed to a constant 5% charge that occurs 100% of time against each and every player win. It is ridiculous to call a dealer's non-qualifier that occurs once in every 58 deals a commission when in commission-based Pai Gow Poker, you get hit with a commission on every single win you scratch out, and can't make a single win without paying back 5%. For that matter, on three-card poker, the dealer doesn’t even qualify 30% of the time, pushing a winning PLAY bet on THREE out of ten hands. If we can claim a push is a "commission" if it might occur once in every 58 hands, when it isn’t called a commission for the "PLAY" bet push in Three card poker - in one in every 30% of the deals, or THREE out of ten hands!! Why the dealers who are working at the Golden Nuggent are actively telling players that a rare non-qualifier is getting slammed by a commission, then pointing the players to the Fortune table nearby as if they should go there, is a little disconcerting to hear....

5. Some "modern" house ways for Pai Gow Poker get 2.5%+, and this is the figure I use for general PGP; this is because a good house way can get another 0.1% by NOT making dumb hand setting errors, and an additional 0.1% by capitalizing on the "copy effect" (e.g., "Split Jacks and 7's or better except when having and AK for the top;" "Always play a straight or a flush instead of two pairs if the straight or flush can play an AK or an AQ for the top," etc....)

6. If you look at the variances on Blackjack, where players also make strategy decisions on the game, you'll see even wider H.E. swings and table holds based on casino location (older locals areas have better players), with various rules, etc. The fact that the basic math of EZ Pai Gow so closely matches the commission-based game was something I looked hard into as a goal. Mike has 2.4694% as the house edge for EZ pai Gow, and 2.73% for standard pai gow, and that's totally reasonable and within range when you consider the variances in house ways (some promote the dealer effect for the same strategy used), etc....Also note than when you see a pai Gow mechanism effect on the house edge of less than 2.0%, it is usually describing the effect of the mechanism itself (queen push mechanism, commission effect, etc.) aside from the dealer hand copy effect.

7. What Mike could do (hint, hint?) is write about the house edge effects and differences between different house ways. Utilizing great two pair splitting rules, using the effect of hand copies in strategy, cleaning up straight and flush handling, etc., make a difference, and Mike can tell us how much. this is especially so since there is no "officially approved" house way mathematically. Everybody casino manager seems to get their house way from a guy in a raincoat, waiting in the parking lot at Palace station when you start comparing and analyzing them.
You could get a "standard player Player-way" written up and compare that baseline against various house ways.

Thanks for the detailed response Dan.

Quote: Paigowdan

Regular Commission Pai Gow Poker:
2. ... There is about a 0.9% house edge effect from player-dealer "copies," ...

EZ Pai Gow no commission:
2. ... There is about a 1% house edge effect from player-dealer "copies," ...

Is that a typo, or is there really a 0.1% house edge effect from copies when the dealer has the Queen high hand?

I'm sorry you got worked up about this. I knew you were on this forum so I was curious for your take. Thanks for the response. You are probably right, it could be just grumpy dealers.

Personally I prefer EZPGP after having tried it. I think there is a good chance it takes over from the commission game due to the simpler procedures and greater hands per hour advantages for the house. Also at the GN they were getting a lot of action on the pai gow protection bet when I was there. I am sure they like anything that drives more bonus bet action. In a situation with both games available I would only play the commission game if I planned to bank. I was actually pleasantly surprised to find that the house edge was similar to the commission game. It seems normally that when there is a new variation of a popular game the driving factor is a bigger take for the house.

I live in Washington state and I doubt EZPGP would work here because most of the casinos let you play commission free if you are playing a $5 bonus, which just about everyone does anyway. They make all their money from the copies and the bonus bet. It could be that the bonus pay tables are worse than Vegas, I don't pay attention because I don't play it. I actually gamble pretty rarely here because our casinos are smoky and depressing. The tribal casinos are the only places in the state where smoking is still allowed indoors and they are filled with angry old people smoking and gambling away their social security checks. It's not a fun environment compared to Vegas.

Your assertion that dealers make most of their tips from bonus wins explains why some dealers really sell the bonus. I actually like the few PGP tables without bonus (Mirage?) so I don't get the constant pressure to play it.

Probably the dealer that told me the GN was the only place with EZ didn't know any different, but she also could have meant downtown, which I think is true. I didn't see it anywhere else because as a tourist I don't play in Henderson or the other locals casinos you mention. I actually do make a trip to Red Rock on some visits because it's a nice combo of classy resort + better value gambling compared to the strip.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Thanks for the detailed response Dan.

Quote: Paigowdan

Regular Commission Pai Gow Poker:
2. ... There is about a 0.9% house edge effect from player-dealer "copies," ...

EZ Pai Gow no commission:
2. ... There is about a 1% house edge effect from player-dealer "copies," ...

Is that a typo, or is there really a 0.1% house edge effect from copies when the dealer has the Queen high hand?

I figure so as later on he adds 1% to 1.46% and gets 2.36%...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Thanks for the detailed response Dan.

Is that a typo, or is there really a 0.1% house edge effect from copies when the dealer has the Queen high hand?

There is no effect from the house edge mechanism (commission versus queen push) on copies. The house edge affects the copy effect. 0.9% was added equally to both from the copy effect. Consider it a rounding typo.

Is the red black bet an even chance bet, like in roulette?

Quote: jml24

I'm sorry you got worked up about this. I knew you were on this forum so I was curious for your take. Thanks for the response. You are probably right, it could be just grumpy dealers.

Jml, I'm not worked up about. I respond, and with detail. I do what I can for things within my control, - and cannot worry about the rest. It is amazing how much dealers affect the perception of games and the casinos.

Quote: jml24

Personally I prefer EZPGP after having tried it. I think there is a good chance it takes over from the commission game due to the simpler procedures and greater hands per hour advantages for the house. Also at the GN they were getting a lot of action on the pai gow protection bet when I was there. I am sure they like anything that drives more bonus bet action. In a situation with both games available I would only play the commission game if I planned to bank. I was actually pleasantly surprised to find that the house edge was similar to the commission game. It seems normally that when there is a new variation of a popular game the driving factor is a bigger take for the house.

Thanks! I was surprised that people assume it has a stronger house edge when it doesn't, the queen high push is unobtrusive and occurs once in a blue moon. Again, most people just "look and assume" including dealers.

Quote: jml24

I live in Washington state and I doubt EZPGP would work here because most of the casinos let you play commission free if you are playing a $5 bonus, which just about everyone does anyway. They make all their money from the copies and the bonus bet. It could be that the bonus pay tables are worse than Vegas, I don't pay attention because I don't play it.

The bonus tables are often "tweaked" and watered down, usually by paying three-of-a-kind at 2:1, etc.; I wanted the game to play commission-free without any side-bet related catch, so that you would have full-pay bonus tables, and be able to play just the main wager with no commission if you wanted to.

Quote: jml24

I actually gamble pretty rarely here because our casinos are smoky and depressing. The tribal casinos are the only places in the state where smoking is still allowed indoors and they are filled with angry old people smoking and gambling away their social security checks. It's not a fun environment compared to Vegas.

I know. These people scare me, in a "my mother warned me" sense....

Quote: EvenBob

Is the red black bet an even chance bet, like in roulette?

Yes - with a bonus: it pays 5:1 if the 7-card hand is all of one color. The bet is popular in a few locations (Kansas City, I think). This bet was created separately by Charles Mousseau as a "pick-up" item for the game, and some places like it.

Quote: jml24

The tribal casinos are the only places in the state where smoking is still allowed indoors and they are filled with angry old people smoking and gambling

I see those same people in Vegas during the week, the
old people playing the slots. Vegas does change on the
weekends when the crowd gets younger, but so what.
Those young people will be old before they know it and
still be playing the slots. Whats the difference. Wisdom
doesn't usually come with age. Young idiots usually morph
into old idiots eventually.

Funny? The dealers at Barona love this game? They have locals that play 25$ on the Queens Dragon. And when it hits, it is an all out party! Think about what it must look like when a full table at $25 a bet on a 50 to 1 payout, all hit that bet! Its takes five mins to claim everyone down enough to deal the next game. They high five every person that walks by, laughing, rejoycing and all of them with huge smiles on their faces.

Two things to note here.

1) Not one player here is worried about the hand the just pushed.

And

2) The biggest smile is on the dealer face. They just had 4 , 5 or 6 players win 1250$ each. Now we all know that players never toke when a dealer hands out cash like that? Right?... Well you keep thinking that. The dealers at Barona know better.

I have seen EZ Pai Gow at Cannery and Fiesta Henderson where I can not get a seat. Strange? I never have that issues with the other pai gow games.

The Cannery and Barona get a lot of mention on EZ Pai Gow.
The Cannery doesn't have the queen's dragon bet nor Pai Gow insurance, but it has the bonus bet plus the progressive.
Local Players seem to get acclimated to the style of play in their area - like a dialect.
I consider the queen's dragon bet a "San Diego" type of thing, sort of like a mini-jackpot bet if the dealer gets a queen high hand; it's not really a "Vegas" Pai Gow player's type of bet, but I play it at the Golden Nugget, and I only once caught it. It does help the dealer's tokes where it gets action. You get a bunch of Green and Black chips, - and then the dealer starts coughing and clearing his throat (Ahem...[cough, cough]) looking at you....technically, this is not a solicitation, he just has a scratchy throat.
I designed the Queen's dragon bet to offset the chance of the queen-high push, but a part of me wanted the players to focus on the "positive" hands through the bonus bet (Straight Flush, Royal, 4 of a kind, etc.).
When the dragon bet hits, it can give up some money. It sort of behaves like the craps' Fire Bet when people play it.

Update:
I stopped in twice today at the Golden Nugget. Armed with $500, I was ready to play some Pai Gow. got a surprise.

First time today was at 2:30PM, the afternoon rush, - and the game was closed. I asked a floorlady as to when the game would be available to play, and she refered me to the floorman in the other pit (a 60-ish Arab man, very friendly), and I asked him "what time would EZ pai Gow be opening?" He said, "8 o'clock, Sir, come back at 8 tonight."
Okay.

I then get to the Golden nugget at 8:00 or so, and I put $500 and my player's card on the table, expecting the table to open. It was right next to a Fortune Pai Gow game that was dead - no players, in spite of the fact that it was pretty busy there: BJ, Three Card Poker, etc., all humming along.
A floor lady comes over, and I ask her to open it. She sees the $500 and my player's card on the table, then points to the dead Fortune table, and says "You can play there at that table."
I said, "Ma'am, I don't want to - I want to play here. Can you open it?" She said she'd have to call the other pit, and a pit boss or shift manager came over, also a lady.
The pit boss asked why don't I play the Fortune game, it too is Pai Gow Poker. I did NOT tell her I invented this Pai Gow variant, (why should I?) - but I did tell her that I bet green action, (which is damn true) - so I when I bet $25, I want to win $25, not $23.75 over and over. (Actually, this was part of the reason why I worked to come up with the game. Truly a Pai gow game invented by a serious Pai Gow player FOR the Pai Gow player. I had ME in mind!)
So she said, "Oh, I see. $25 a hand. Well, we can't open it because we are short dealers. In fact - it's been closed all week." (Huh??!! WTF?! Good thing I popped in!)
Then I pointed to the dealer on the other Pai Gow table (which was obviously dead), and said, "She's not doing anything....I'll buy in for $500 and play green action, I guarentee it." You'd think the pit boss would say, "fine, you got it - let's see your action. Open it."

Instead, she said "I don't know what to tell you." And I believe she was telling me the truth.
I said, fine, goodbye, I'm going to Rampart, and took the money and left.

My wife was at one of her Amway meetings (please don't comment...), so I ended up seeing "The Descendants" with George Clooney at Sam's town at 10:30, and then played EZ Pai Gow from 12:30AM until three at the Cannery right next door. I played with another guy and his father, (four hands, green action at 3AM) - and didn't notice my wife's phone calls, as my cell ringer was off from being in the movies. Eight messages. I better have a good excuse, I lost track of the time. Good thing I left up $300 bucks (four 6's with a pair of 9's up). I saw ONE queen-high in 2-1/2 hours - and my full house pushed! So did my King-high Pai Gow (I play two hands)- and with $10 on the bonus bet and Nothing on the progressive. Funny thing - it was the first hand right after I stopped playing the progressive.

Anway, as for the Golden Nugget experience, I don't know what to quite make of it. I can't assume anything nefarious, and I don't (most dealer and floor mishaps and mishandlings are due to tired dealers or "burn-out" among floor supervisors), but it did look as if they didn't mind or cared about giving a black eye to a new and otherwise very successful game. I'm certain that they had absolutely NO idea that I was the inventor of the game who was not just checking up on the baby in their care, but is simply a Pai Gow junkie and dice thrower, for lack of a more dignified description of my gambling habits.
In terms of supporting a new game, I had a dissapointing "operator experience," and it does happen.
What's your take?

Quote: Paigowdan

it did look as if they didn't mind or cared about giving a black eye to a new and otherwise very successful game.

I can't speak for this line of work, but in other fields it's typical worker attitude. They figure our what it is they have to do to get through their day and get to come back tomorrow and still have a job. If no one higher up has emphasized that your game has proved profitable and popular and should be available, then the Indians are focusing on whatever it is that the Chiefs do seem to care about. Seldom is that good customer service, alas. They could have just come out of a meeting that was to be about better customer service and promoting the best games, and actually learned instead that Joe has to learn to keep his mouth shut, Sam is wrongly under suspicion, Frank is getting away with murder, Suzie is making moves on the boss and benefiting, and Doris's drinking is going to cost her one day. "Just don't make any waves" is the mantra. If the right folks weren't in place to make your game available, the people who were there don't want to make waves. If any big shot who somehow noticed some of this asks why you left, he will be told you were an "a**hole" and that will be the end of it.

My 2 cents.

Man that sucks. And it's hard to find a way to spin this so it doesn't sound as bad as you're probably imagining.

This turn of events, along with the comments reported in the original post, make it sound like GN, for whatever reason, is killing the game, perhaps in preperation for taking it off the floor. Maybe it's just the dealers and floor people that are killing it. Maybe the higher-ups haven't read the reports yet that show the game has been closed all week.

On your next visit, talk to the casino manager and/or table games director. Wouldn't they have been instrumental in bringing it in? If so, wouldn't they want the game open? Ask them why the game isn't open. Ask them why in the afternoon, you were told to come back that evening, when it hasn't been open all week. I realize the answer to that question is just to keep a gambler on the property, but it may make them squirm.

If you are willing to identify yourself, find out if they liked the game prior to bringing it in, and if their opinion changed.


When does the contract with GN expire?

Okay, lets face it. I don't know nuttin' 'bout poker so I don't play it.
Since I don't know nuttin' 'bout poker, I don't know nuttin' 'bout no poker variants so I don't play no Pai Gow Poker.
I don't play Hard Pai Gow Poker and Don't Play No Easy Pai Gow Poker neither!

Now I don't know for sure 'bout any inherent tendency for a dealer to gripe 'bout a new game, but maybe they just don't like change or being told to something new. So as long as the initial dealer gripes evaporate, a game can succeed but if dealer gripes persist a game can not survive.

I don't know 'bout Player Gripes but no game will survive if players start out with gripes because players will walk well before their gripes vanish amidst sudden understanding of the game.

House Edge? Look folks its simple. You take House Edge as PGP is usually played and you take House Edge as EZPGP is usually played and you compare them. Simple. Rainy Tuesdays with Weirdos Who Bank just doesn't cut it.

Now apparently EZPGP could also be called No-CommissionPGP but that wouldn't mean much in Washington because they already got No Commission since they waive it for Bonus Action and everyone gives them Bonus Action.

To get right down to the nugget of the problem, we gotta get right down to the Nugget.
Somebody what got five hundred smackers sitting on an unmanned table and there is a dealer who could be moved from Dead Table Pai Gow to the Five Hundred Smackers Pai Gow... and its a grand total of a few feet but they don't do it? Something is rotten in Denver for sure! Or is that Denmark? Lets face it. They don't want to open the EZPGP table. I don't know why, but they don't want to do it. It seems unique to the Nugget but you better find out just what the problem is.

As I understand it the main advantage of EZPGP is that the "no commission" means no screwing around with lammers and therefor no delay in dealing that next hand. Its sort of a "No Commission In Name" that compensates with a "Well if its Queen High on a Rainy Tuesday" type thing. So some dealers gripe and mis-describe this unusual situation. So what? That ain't why the game is closed and remains so disliked there. Something happened and both dealers and floor people are agin it for some reason.

Despite (or maybe because of) the Southern Drawl of the way you describe it, you've hit the nail on the head.


One correction: There are no lammers used. The 5% commission is taken out immediately - there are lots of quarters and $1 chips on the table. Lammers *may* make the game a little faster, but I doubt it. The EZ version means no screwing around with quarters and singles. And that makes it a LOT faster.

Lammers are used on Baccarat. And that's kind of a wierd contradiction, since Bac runs slowly due to all the player note taking.

Odious and Dave and Flea and everyone, - thanks so much for your input!

Certainly many people in many fields are fine, and some are not, and WE ALL have bad days. And many rise up via the "Peter [Pan] principal," where you rise to your highest level where you land at a level of professional semi-competence, for lack of a better description. - I'm not claiming that here, as a lot of "bad days" do happen, and we all have out days, but the events at GN was quite a string. It did scare me a bit to see how the game was handled. I hope there'll be a friendly review and a new beginning. Just being honest as a game designer.

As for talking directly to the CM or DTG (casino manager or director of table games), I don't think it would be productive to express my concerns; just to gripe about the ups and downs of this business here among my cohorts and get a handle on my feelings about this is enough for me. DEQ is my distributor, and they handle things very professionally and discreetly in what is often a very politically charged and acrimonious business. Suffice it to say that big money is involved - and casino execs are human, very human ( - just don't mention that, though.) There is also a tendency of us all in this business to feel that we all know what we're doing perfectly 24/7, much worse than most fields and disciplines. I am very leery of the fellow dealer or floorman saying out loud - in an attempt to show up someone's argument or point of logic when they're wrong about the house way - "I've been in the gaming business for 40 years as a floorman, dammit, so let me tell you!! Go to the office! Now! #$@^% !" (Realize that this is akin to saying, "I've been in the Army for 47 years, - and I happen to be a Staff Sergeant!!" You just itch to reply, "well, there is a reason for that!" but you don't.) There is a bit of hubris, plus a huge amount of 'off-the-cuff" handling of casino business decisions and situations by "on the spot fiat," without thought or research, and quite often frustration and tiredness. It's just a mode of "I'm gonna do this now; I've done it before, it'll work, - and be done with it." This effect can cascade, - and many operations can and do go wrong in our operating room. We often move on, get past it, learning "various" amounts. I know how this business works, and I know how this business handles business at times.

But a couple of things don't add up, really bother me, and I'm trying to figure out the following:
1. This is the Golden Nugget we're talking about here, not the Longhorn or the Western (and no one here will deny their reputation on opposite ends of the scale.) For this reason, what is expected in customer service and new game support should be nothing short of very fine or outstanding.

2. The Golden Nugget has introduced, and fairly quickly pulled from the floor, a number of new games recently: Rupert's Island Draw and Zero come to mind, among others. So I considered them a good outfit to support a fairly new game, and that the failures were because these games didn't have the "juice," which was borne out in these games' first incarnations.

3. However, EZ Pai Gow is NOT a brand new game: it has about 50 tables in eight states, with 23 casinos and multiple operators. Furthermore, three major casino operators fully converted to EZ Pai Gow: The Barona in San Diego, The Cannery group in Las Vegas, and Ameristar Casinos with operations all over the mid-west. These are major players in the industry. All operators say it's a fantastic game: better action, better table drop, better table hold, just the nuts in terms of finally fixing the game of Pai Gow poker. To go 50 and 0 with a new table game is like the New York Giants going 50-and-0: quite a parlay, and I am on top of the world. The numbers can be borne out: Indeed, The Missouri Gaming Commission publicly publishes the table hold percentages and table drop amounts for all gaming products used in the state; this is part of their government oversight, with a bit of the attitude "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." See:Missouri Gaming Commission, click on "Riverboat Revenue," then on the drop-down menu, click "Slot/Table Payout percentages." Ameristar KC, Lumiere Place, Ameristar SC and everyone else are all there. Having said this, I would be very surprised and disappointed if an outfit like the Golden Nugget couldn't make the game work out very well in the end.

4. The gaming industry is tightly regulated from the top, - remember, this is Nevada, the pinnacle of gaming that totally cleaned up its act 100% since the 70's. I do indeed think it was just a series of bad days at one operator, a statistical fluke. Tonight, I got a four of a kind, then five full houses in 7 deals, so such things can occur; I especially know this being in gaming and by being a gambler, too. I have also gotten a pair of deuces with a J-10 top in what also seemed like an endless losing run. I must also reject any claims mentioned to me that a competitor would stack a deck. I personally know "R.S." of Shufflemaster, and consider him not only to be a fine guy (I never had any problem with him in any dealings, always straight up and straight talking), and also consider him the top table game designer: Crazy Four Poker, Ultimate Texas hold 'em, Four Card poker, Money Market, the list is endless, he's like the John Lennon of table games in terms of table game design, knowledge, and production work. He'd having nothing to fear from me. Clearly, they are above reproach.

Basically, all I want to see is a strange situation resolved.
What does need to be considered is how different casino operators make worthy new games a success. Barona in San Diego is amazing in this regard, So is the Ameristar group; maybe, and I do think this is the case, that the Golden Nugget, - as fine as they are in terms of being a production casino for customers, is not at it's strongest point in ushering in new games. In this regard, I think DEQ can handle it.

Treat GN as an aberration. A former dealer there told me recently that they treat their people terribly. During that same trip, one of their Roulette dealers hit 36 (which i had $3 on), placed the marker behind it in the column for an instant and swept my chips away. Then denied to me he did it (he then did not want to allow video, I had to call over a Supervisor and finally got paid)

In 5 years or less, GN will be sold or closed.

Although I implied that you might want to identify yourself when talking to a CM or DTG, I expected you to reject that idea.

Yeah, you've teamed with DEQ, and one of the things you can expect from that is that they have better experience and methods of getting issues discused with the top brass at the casinos.


I REALLY meant that you should talk to the floor person's supervisor - as the $500 green chip player that you are.

I do not think it would be odd for such a player to be "in the know" of casino heirarchy and be able to specify the CN or DTG when asking to talk to a supervisor. I also do not think it would be odd for such a player to realize that the casinos pay a lisense fee for new games. To tell the supervisor that it seems odd that they prefer to keep such a licensed game closed when you want to play should not be deemed as an indicator that you are the inventor or have any other such ulterior motives.

I mean, very much like you already did, but say it to the higher ups: "I've got $500 ready to bet at that game, and I'll be betting $25 or more per hand. Don't you pay a license fee for that game? Don't you want me to play it?"

Quote: Paigowdan

1. This is the Golden Nugget we're talking about here, not the Longhorn or the Western (and no one here will deny their reputation on opposite ends of the scale.) For this reason, what is expected in customer service and new game support should be nothing short of very fine or outstanding.

And I think this could be a problem in your thinking. Yes, the GN SHOULD be better in customer service, but it's too nice of a property to care about the $500 buy-in. My opinion has always been that the Golden Nugget acts like a strip property in the downtown environment. While I agree that they SHOULD be more concerned about getting your $500 from a service perspective, let's face it; if you're a regular Joe at a Strip property you need at least a couple grand to get a table opened.

This isn't an excuse for not doing it... but $500 to what is viewed as a high-end property (and definitely wants to maintain the image to its customers) is nothing. The Longhorn or Western would be THRILLED to get that $500.

Quote: Tiltpoul

And I think this could be a problem in your thinking. Yes, the GN SHOULD be better in customer service, but it's too nice of a property to care about the $500 buy-in. My opinion has always been that the Golden Nugget acts like a strip property in the downtown environment. While I agree that they SHOULD be more concerned about getting your $500 from a service perspective, let's face it; if you're a regular Joe at a Strip property you need at least a couple grand to get a table opened.

This isn't an excuse for not doing it... but $500 to what is viewed as a high-end property (and definitely wants to maintain the image to its customers) is nothing. The Longhorn or Western would be THRILLED to get that $500.

That's a good point: $500 is nothing to the Nugget, and so I have to consider that they wouldn't care about opening any game for that amount - that's why think it's an innocent mix-up. But letting dealers bad-mouth and trash the game, and then keeping it closed for a week straight out of the blue was a red flag. But that forces action off of the game when you'd expect them to support all their games fairly. But the buy-in thing may be an innocent mix-up. It all that makes me uncomfortable, as they should handle table games, especially new games - or games in new markets - with the involvement and attention that the Barona or the Cannery or Ameristar does. Rupert's Island draw or Zero Baccarat may have made it as new games, too, for that matter, we do not know.
In a sense, you can argue that the successful and more "participatory" operators had spoiled me. But for that matter, the Fiesta Henderson didn't give ANY special attention to my game - even though I work there - aside from:
1. The game is open equally with other Pai Gow products - and not treated like a red-haired step-child - to see how it really does against the other Pai gow tables; This is fair and reasonable - just give it the same consideration of the other games, not less, especially as a game new to the market. To also assure unfair favoritism on this, I dealt dice and other games almost all the time. I deal EZ pai Gow about once or twice a month; Aside from dice, I almost always deal poker-related games: Fortune Pai Gow, Deuces Wild (I like how Galaxy fixed it up!), and Three card Poker. The Poker and dice stuff I know, and they put me there. Suit up, show up, obey orders, and give customer service, and you're fine as a dealer.
2. Occasionally discuss technical issues from time to time with me - such as hold and drop issues, procedures, etc., which they did. They did NOT keep it open 24/7, or update their house way, or do other things I wanted at first. And it ended up being unnecessary, as treating the game equally to other Pai Gow games was enough to prove it, and it did fine.
3. let me say I did not sweat or worry about my game at work at Fiesta, even though the crap table and the other Pai Gow table is right next to EZ pai Gow. I ignored it at work, and you can ask anyone there. I focused what was in front of me, and sweated the Barona and Ameristar from far away, - and they did fabulously, totally super.

Edit: jml's question about possible toke (tip) reduction on EZ pai Gow. I didn't address this yet, so let me do so now:
I noticed NO difference, or even a help in terms of tips, running without a commission:
1. If the players have to pay a commission on top of their wins, they are less likely to tip on top of that commission in the first place. “Why should I tip if I have to pay a commission, too!” - the players argue.
2. Players who win red are more likely to tip red, especially if they are not hit with a commission. Dealers would rather seen red or green than white.
3. Pai Gow Players only tip on the bonus bet occurrence, or tip after a big hand like a straight flush, or tip when they are leaving the table. These factors exist as the main source of tips on all Pai Gow type games, regardless of type.
4. Players ask for white chips to tip the cocktail waitress, and ask for white to tip the dealers, too.
Every dealer knows this.

Dan,

I think you do treat this as an anomaly and specific to the GN. The game is doing well in other locations and for whatever reason something is amiss at the GN and their attitude toward the game. Maybe they really have been short dealers and when that is the case, they are going to open their staple games first and forgo the newer carnival games.

Did they have Texas Hold'em Plus Delux open during the week or that night? That is another of their newer additions. I would imagine if they had TCP & UTH open (do they have UTH?), that THPD would likely not be open as well if they are short dealers?

Like it or not, they likely view EZPGP as a carnival game despite the fact that it is really just like Fortune PGP but with a different commission mechanism. It doesn't appear that they view it as equivalent to having FPGP open. Don't take that as the red haired step child theory anymore than normal resistance to a game they haven't had on the floor for 3+ years. It is still a new game for them and not yet a staple. When you are short dealers, you open the staples first and the rest of the games as the dealer availability permits.

Now if you found out that every other table had been open that week except EZPGP, then I think you have a bigger issue.

But again, even if that is the case, treat it as property specific, not a game specific issue. 50 Tables......focus on the positives, table count takes time and 50 tables is every table game developers dream. Soak it in and enjoy the ride from here to 100.

Paradigm,

I will say that is a very interesting point, that Gaming Network's Texas Hold 'em Plus Delux may have been open, shut down EZ Pai Gow, which incidentally was placed by Gaming Network, and not by DEQ....

very interesting point....

Paradigm,

I will say that is a very interesting point, that Gaming Network's Texas Hold 'em Plus Delux may have been open, shuting down EZ Pai Gow during that time period.

Very interesting point. For a lot of reasons.

You may have answered some questions with that question.

It sounds like GN is getting ready to get rid of your
game. The tip off is its been closed for a week, and
they refused to open it. Its like the word is out that
its history and they don't care. I've asked for lots
of tables to be opened over the years and have never
been told no. That they flat out refused is not good.

I should take one thing back, I hinted the HE for EZ PGP is enough to keep me from playing it. It is certainly true that the 1.4% or so on the line in Craps is about as high as I want to go, and even then I like to get the casino edge reduced with odds. But I did find I liked standard PGP and have to assume I would like the EZ version and want to try it. My new thing is to be careful about session length, so although the first time I have a chance to play it I might do a long session, I am sure to limit following ones to maybe an hour. I recognize that Dan had no chance of selling this game to the casinos if he made the HE lower than the original game! What a selling point that would be!

So hopefully, Dan, I get to play it some day and I will let you know how it goes.

Do you live in LV EvenBob?

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Do you live in LV EvenBob?

No, but I've been going regularly since 1975.

Quote: Paigowdan

It all that makes me uncomfortable, as they should handle table games, especially new games - or games in new markets - with the involvement and attention that the Barona or the Cannery or Ameristar does.
3. let me say I did not sweat or worry about my game at work at Fiesta, even though the crap table and the other Pai Gow table is right next to EZ pai Gow. I ignored it at work, and you can ask anyone there. I focused what was in front of me, and sweated the Barona and Ameristar from far away, - and they did fabulously, totally super.

I've always praised Ameristar for being on the cutting edge of offering the newest table games, especially at their Council Bluffs property, who has tested a bunch of games. I also warn you if you're not familiar with their philosophy; they are a SLOT PARLOR first, and table games are secondary to that. This is reflected in floor moves for table games at Kansas City, the severe cutback of games at St Charles, and their advertising in general. This is the ONLY casino group I know if that actually advertises slot machines on TV and billboards. Their influence is so pervasive that the Harrah's in the same markets actually have to push their slots the same way Ameristar does.

I'm not saying they're a bad barometer; on the contrary, that's great it's doing so well in their casinos. But I would question their legitimacy as a table games first place, because they are anything but that.

Quote: EvenBob

It sounds like GN is getting ready to get rid of your
game. The tip off is its been closed for a week, and
they refused to open it. Its like the word is out that
its history and they don't care. I've asked for lots
of tables to be opened over the years and have never
been told no. That they flat out refused is not good.

Bob, I fully agree. (Look - we agree again!)
But my position is that it is better to have 49 healthy installs, than 49 healthy installs affected by one sickly install.
If GN is willing to give the game a good faith effort, then of course let it continue, but if not, let it go. just be honest about it by working with your vendor on it.
Keep in mind that operators of casino products reflect on the vendor or distributor of the table product, - in addition to reflecting on themselves.
If people don't like a particular table game, they don't say "the Sands casino sucks," - they say "This table game sucks."

And that's unfairly on us - not them.

Its interesting the guy who started this thread stated
the EZ table was packed two weeks ago and he couldn't
even play it. And the dealers complaining they didn't
like it. It could be the casino listened to the dealers and
didn't pay attention that it was packed all the time. I
know Binions got rid of Rapid Roulette because the dealers
didn't like it in 2006, at least thats what they told me was
the reason.

I agree with Bob. I personally saw Digital 21 killed at the Isle of Capri in Blackhawk. I tip too much so they would open the table for me, but would shut it down as soon as possible after I left. Same dealers pushed Let it Ride out the door, although not as
blatantly. For whatever reason, they loved Stacy Perry's Streak and would often pimp it. Even telling players to only bet after a losing bet, so they would only have to win 5 hands in a row, not 6, to get the max payoff. LOL

Quote: EvenBob

Its interesting the guy who started this thread stated
the EZ table was packed two weeks ago and he couldn't
even play it. And the dealers complaining they didn't
like it. It could be the casino listened to the dealers and
didn't pay attention that it was packed all the time. I
know Binions got rid of Rapid Roulette because the dealers
didn't like it in 2006, at least thats what they told me was
the reason.

Actually, the inmates cannot always run the asylum, even in the gaming industry - because:
1. management looks at performance (table drop and table hold - cash action and income - which were fine) when the game is open, and
2. The ones who manage the money make the calls to down below. Orders run downhill.
3. As for not liking the game, well, the players like it, and all other dealers like because it saves the hassle of constantly crunching out commission change as a drag on the game for everyone. Easier to deal as a result, and fair to the players at the same HE.

What seemed to be going on was a "clique" of dealers and floor supervisors who for some reason, had it in for the game.
Why?, - I don't know exactly, but something may have indeed been up behind the scenes; this was NOT typically a "Golden Nugget incident," but an abberation. I was there in person and saw the change, one that is hopefully temporary. I don't care what went on or why it went on, but that we all fix it or end it.

In ending a game for any reason, I feel it is better for management to quietly remove a felt than to have the pit animals perform a beat down on it, by sabotaging performance by closing the game all the time, or by openly bad-mouthing it. Just an unnecessary infliction of a blackeye when a quiet goodbye - or a fix-up renewal - would do just as well. If you ordered and installed a table game, then honestly support it in your pit for everyone's benefit.

Quote: EvenBob

I know Binions got rid of Rapid Roulette because the dealers
didn't like it in 2006, at least thats what they told me was
the reason.

That's understandable. There are a lot of things to not like about Rapid Roulette - and that goes for dealers, players, and even management.

The only thing EZPG did to PGP was to get rid of the one element that everyone can agree that they hated. It truly is a beautiful thing.

Quote: Paigowdan

.... 2. I constantly play EZ pai Gow both at the Cannery, and at the Golden Nugget. They (- for the most part) do not know who I am, I just play.

It costs money to play, right? I assume you will lose just like others. Do U claim it as a business losses, business investment or cost to conduct business, or as entertainment?

As much as I enjoy gambling, a small part of me looks at it as if it were foolish. The other part of me says, "- if it feels good, do it."
I never use or consider personal gambling expenditures as a business expense, though I learn a lot about the business from both sides of the table, some of it ugly.

Quote: Paigowdan

What seemed to be going on was a "clique" of dealers and floor supervisors who for some reason, had it in for the game.

If it was me, I'd blatantly go in and ask them. Pretend
you heard its leaving and see if they heard the same thing.
It always works better to get someone to agree with you
than to get them to volunteer info. They'll either say, yeah,
I heard that too. Or, nope, not as far as I know.