Flashing 3CP dealers, bankroll management.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Also, in case FinsRule was referring to the physical nature of hole carding 3CP, many dealers are so weak that you don't need to do any slouching or similar shenanigans to get a peek.

"Enough dealers are so weak" is a better way to describe it. This is the shame on the dealers' end.

"You don't need to do any slouching or similar shenanigans to get a peek" is the shame of the players' end.

For a while, when we had the older "high-mount" machines where it was easy to accidentally flash the bottom card of the dealer's card packet, so we used to LEAVE the dealer's card packet in the machine until ALL players had either PLAYED or FOLDED. We would also note and report any player (to keep an eye on), anyone who would go out of his way to ask "Aren't you going to pull out the dealer's hand??" - when it was not necessary to do so until all players either played or folded.

Some places (mainly Main Street Station and the California Hotel) do not take the dealer's card packet out of the hopper until a cut card was slid under the dealer's packet, to prevent hole carding. Most places upgraded to the I-Deal machine, which is table-mounted, so the dealer can slide or drag the dealer's card packet across the table without ever having to lift the packet up in the air, possibly exposing the hole card.

All three defenses eliminate hole-carding risks, and are retardedly simple for a casino house to implement.

If I were a shift manager, and had a dealer who couldn't follow these most basic procedures of game defenses, would find himself on a pretty uncomfortable visit to the casino pit's shift office. He would then get it right, or hit the streets.

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So what is the appropriate course of action when a dealer flashes a card at you?
Say something about it?
leave?
ignore it?

If you continue to play and can't help but notice this happening, is it truly illegal??

Playing blackjack at a las vegas strip casino....my friends and I were tipping quite well and being very cordial with our dealer. The dealer would occasionally flash us the next card in the deck to help us make a decision, or she would tell us when to take insurance after checking for a BJ. Does this make us cheats or were we just being thrown a bone for being good tippers and respectful patrons?

your thoughts?

Quote: awakefield1983

So what is the appropriate course of action when a dealer flashes a card at you?
Say something about it?
leave?
ignore it?

If you continue to play and can't help but notice this happening, is it truly illegal??

Playing blackjack at a las vegas strip casino....my friends and I were tipping quite well and being very cordial with our dealer. The dealer would occasionally flash us the next card in the deck to help us make a decision, or she would tell us when to take insurance after checking for a BJ. Does this make us cheats or were we just being thrown a bone for being good tippers and respectful patrons?

your thoughts?

.If the dealer is knowingly showing you the card, That is cheating.You should leave the table Asap.

What I'm getting from this thread: everyone else is posting facts, especially teddys (Dan, read that quote again, in particular the part that reads "Or perhaps the patron who notices and takes advantage of a dealer's habit of play that will occasionally provide an unintended view of the dealer's cards."), and Dan is screaming "nuh-uh, nuh-uh!"

...but...

I've got to say, ethically, he's sort of right.

I don't understand AP. To provide you with a pleasant gaming experience, they set out a bunch of games with enough of an edge to profit them and a high enough variance to allow for occasional winners. That's the business model. And your idea of a good time is... to do everything in your power to sap their profits? And in doing so, provide yourself a narrow enough edge that the a tip will destroy it, so you stiff them as well? Why? The money? Nonsense. If you have enough to play at a level where the money's worth it, there are better places to gamble it. Justice? For what? They're not pretending the odds are better than they are. The challenge? Well... fair enough. But don't act like the casinos are in the wrong to stop you.

VP and progressives are different, because those are put out with the full knowledge that they can be beaten, but in the former case, the house expects mistakes to make up for the losses, and in the latter case, the more APers the better (as long as the flock when the pot is low are untouched), so you're just part of the game. Poker and sports book are a completely different story, since even though all bookmakers and some poker players are depending on wins, they got into it knowing that they could be outplayed, and the people supplying the infrastructure get paid no matter what. But playing a game that's there to make the casino money, taking advantages you know they can't afford to allow and do not claim to allow, and calling them greedy cheats for disallowing it seems like absurd self-righteousness to me.

Also, RonC: The reels are supposed to be independent. If they're not, the casino is indeed cheating. It's just that one reel is typically weighted against the big symbols more than the others, plus enough things register as "near misses" that they're far more likely than wins.

Quote: awakefield1983

She would tell us when to take insurance after checking for a BJ. Does this make us cheats or were we just being thrown a bone for being good tippers and respectful patrons?

your thoughts?

I thought insurance is offered before they check for a BJ, your story seems like a dishonest dealer.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. You should consider what the ground rules may indeed be concerning that some forms of Advantage Play (AP), as it may indeed involve outright cheating, including past-posting, hole-carding, etc., which are considered both cheating AND illegal. Note that as an exception that card counting IS considered BOTH cheating AND completely legal. Doesn't mean that card counting gives you the right to carry it out at a casino just because you want to and read about it here at WizardofVegas. It DOES mean that you do have the right to NOT get arrested for that, - although expulsion from a casino and placement on a casino exclusion list are options that casinos have against card counters.

I think you are confused with the meaning of the word cheating. Cheating means Illegal. So when someone cheats he is doing somethinh illegal. He is doing something that it is against the rules.
By analogy for the term in other walks of life consider a tax cheat. Someone who does something illegal with regard to his taxes. Someone who uses clever tax planning and uses for his benefit tax loopholes (which are within the law and the rules) is not a tax cheat.
I think the word you are trying to use is whether something is ethical (not a cheat).
In both cases you might consider someone unethical (either an advantage player or a person utilisising tax loopholes) but in no way a cheat.
In my opinion, ethics is any case is a personal matter. Something that it is unethical to me can be ethical to you and vice versa. Many people consider that the casinos are unethical like you considering Advantage plaeyrs unethical.

Quote: Paigowdan

A casino game is fair if the main table game bet is less than 4%, and slots return 96%.

Fair game by definition of the term in mathematics (and this website is mostly about the math of games) is a game where noone has the edge, ie zero House Edge. A casino never intentionally provides a fair game, that's the basis of a casino's operations and is profit.

Quote: Paigowdan

They might not be cheating. Certainly you are supposed to track discard in poker and in Bridge, and I do so when I play those games. In blackjack, one is NOT supposed to track discards and adjust play by casino convention and house rules. Blackjack originally was not assumed to be countable, and it later was discovered that it is countable (Ed Thorpe et al), creating the card counting issue with the game.

Where in the rules of poker does it say that you are supposed to track discards and where in the rules of BJ it says that you are not supposed to track discards.
You are confusing the terms rules and strategy.
Tracking the dicards either in poker or in BJ is not part of the rules. It is neither allowed or not allowed. It is not mentioned at all. It is not part of the rules.
It is part of the strategy that someone plays the game.
BJ was always countable. (countable means that knoweledge of the discards effects probability of future hands). Even before Thorpe, clever players were counting BJ. Clever players identified long before Thorpe that the Ace is a major benefit to the players beacause of the 3:2 payoff for BJ. At that time the game was played with one deck only and using a rudimentary form of counting, just counting the 4 Aces was a very easy thing to do. Clever players knew to adjust betting levels according to how many Aces gone long before Thorpe. Of course like always clever players were very few and did not matter at all to casino's profitability. Thorpe just improved a lot on this and invented the first form of counting taking into account all the cards and identifying which are for his benefit and which against and to which degree. Thorpe also was teh first to calculate correctly the Basic Strategy. At his time just using his calculated Basic Strategy with the liberal rules in existence, the game was possitive off the top (ie there was a small advantage to the player just with BS and no counting).

Quote: Paigowdan

Card counting is not illegal, but it is against the house rules of the casinos, and you can be barred from playing by doing it, without regards to how one may "feel" about the situation.

Again you are confused. If something is against the house rules, it is illegal by definition. Card counting is not mentioned at all in the rules, it is not against the rules and is not illegal.
In any case using your brain cannot be illegal (either in a casino enviroment or in any other walk of life). Card counting means using your brain. I cannot foresee any walk of life in a Western country that using your brain can be considered illegal or Cheating under any circmustances. Mayne in North Korea it can be illegal but certainly not in the US.
Using your eyes (in a game that it is allowed to have your eyes opened) cannot be considered illegal either. Hole carding is exactly that. If the rules of the game does not prohibit someone to have his eyes open, then any information that he observes with his eyes and processed with his brain are not illegal.
You are trying to say that if a dealer exposes by mistake his holecard, then I as a player must pretend not to see it and must instruct my brain to forget that information just seen. And you think that is a serious proposition to a person of average intelligence.

The only thing from what you say that I agree, is that the casino has the right to refuse action for whatever reason (except certain reasons provided by law like race, ethinicity, gender etc). And most advantage players accept this status quo.
For card counting the casino can protect itself from a card counter with various measures: Banning the counter, Changing the penetration, using CSM, Flat betting him etc.
For Hole carding there is a much easier way for a casino to protect itself: Training the dealer. So there is no reason to resort to bans etc if a casino can eaily rectify its position.
Actually with regard to banning card counters, this is not a universal thing that casino can ban a card counter. Banning a card counter fall under the definition of banning a plater for whatever reason. In places like New Jersy and Spain it has been decided by courts that it is illegal for the casino to ban a players in such circumstances.

The other thing to mention to someone finding a Hole carding opportunity is to be very carefully about its exploitation. Like card counting, if the casino suspects hole carding it can ban you. Even worse if it suspects collusion with the dealer it can prosecute you. So like card counting you need to take counter measures of not been detected.

Paigowdan, I'm guessing you don't actually play yourself. Because if you did, I would imagine you'd walk in, give the dealer your money, not play and just watch others play to get the "entertainment" value. Since it seems in your mind, a player is NEVER supposed to win at a casino.

Here's a question: Let's say I'm playing blackjack, and the dealer accidently exposes both cards. The floor is called over and decides to let the hand stay, and the players simply know what the dealers hand is. I have a hard 18, while the dealer has 19. Normally I would've just stayed, but now that I know I'm going to lose, are you saying it's morally and ethically wrong to take a hit, hoping to beat the dealer based on information I wasn't supposed to have?

I've also heard you're a dealer yourself, is that true? If so, you sound like someone that really likes their profit sharing check and don't want advantage players to cut into that profit share.


Edit:
Also, you must think dice control/dice influence is also morally and ethically wrong (assuming it's possible) because I'm directly changing the odds in my favor by throwing the dice.

But isn't that the whole point of craps? I'm hoping to roll the dice so more winning numbers and less losing numbers occur, varying from the theoretical probabilities.

Quote: ewjones080

Paigowdan, I'm guessing you don't actually play yourself. Because if you did, I would imagine you'd walk in, give the dealer your money, not play and just watch others play to get the "entertainment" value. Since it seems in your mind, a player is NEVER supposed to win at a casino.

I've played with Dan. He does follow the Golden Rule. He was tipping so frequently that there was essentially no chance for him to win. He treated the evening as a chance to socialize, have fun, but clearly not a plan to make money. Dan used his own money to get the 'entertainment', he didn't need to watch others.

Quote: ewjones080

Paigowdan, I'm guessing you don't actually play yourself. Because if you did, I would imagine you'd walk in, give the dealer your money, not play and just watch others play to get the "entertainment" value. Since it seems in your mind, a player is NEVER supposed to win at a casino.

I play my butt off. My gambling allocation is about two grand a month, and 5 bills or so for ad hoc prop bets. I also deal full time, and design casino games, work as a consultant reviewing new games for table game distributors, and receive royalties from my own game designs.

Quote: ewjones080

Here's a question: Let's say I'm playing blackjack, and the dealer accidently exposes both cards. The floor is called over and decides to let the hand stay, and the players simply know what the dealers hand is. I have a hard 18, while the dealer has 19. Normally I would've just stayed, but now that I know I'm going to lose, are you saying it's morally and ethically wrong to take a hit, hoping to beat the dealer based on information I wasn't supposed to have?

No. Take a hit. When I'm on the game, I'm fine with it, I think that that's right. You didn't cheat, the dealer made an error, and the floor supervision gives a pass. No problem here.

Quote: ewjones080

I've also heard you're a dealer yourself, is that true? If so, you sound like someone that really likes their profit sharing check and don't want advantage players to cut into that profit share.

Yes, I'm a dealer, almost always dice, BJ, three Card, and Pai Gow Poker. I don't deal Roulette, too color-blind for that, I mix orange and yellow, grey and purple, etc. For your information, there is ZERO profit sharing at all casino operators below the shift manager's level, and I am ecstatic when a players wins a windfall, or nails a jackpot on a progressive. I have NO problem with ANY clean play or any gracious customers, I love it when the good guys win (- and I do make a distinction between clean players and shot-takers and cheats) - so I have a problem with cheats, and with arrogant customers who feel it is their G-d given right to run over the games on hard working dealers and floormen.

Quote: ewjones

Edit:
Also, you must think dice control/dice influence is also morally and ethically wrong (assuming it's possible) because I'm directly changing the odds in my favor by throwing the dice.

No, not in the least, I allow that all the time on a game, say nothing about it when I am on stick, and it is our policy to allow dice setting for anyone, unless of course they ridiculously slow the game down, then we tell them to be quick (and they can practice at home, even.) I have a problem with crap players who cap odds bets, make false claims via late bets and the like.

Quote: SOOPOO

I've played with Dan. He does follow the Golden Rule. He was tipping so frequently that there was essentially no chance for him to win. He treated the evening as a chance to socialize, have fun, but clearly not a plan to make money. Dan used his own money to get the 'entertainment', he didn't need to watch others.

Soopoo, thanks! THAT is the spirit. Often I DO make money, believe me, I KNOW how to properly set a hand, and I know Basic Strategy cold. I also follow the rules, and try to be the kind of classy player I wish to see when I am the on other side of the table. I practice and live what I preach in this business. Only the good die young, and ultimately, only the clean survive and have fun and make money.

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Quote: AceTwo

I think you are confused with the meaning of the word cheating. Cheating means Illegal. So when someone cheats he is doing somethinh illegal. He is doing something that it is against the rules.

No, and no I am not. Cheating does not mean illegal. You can cheat the crap out of your 11 year old neice at monopoly, and no squad cars will come. Cheating is what a person does and how he behaves, regardless of statutes.

Quote: Acetwo

By analogy for the term in other walks of life consider a tax cheat. Someone who does something illegal with regard to his taxes. Someone who uses clever tax planning and uses for his benefit tax loopholes (which are within the law and the rules) is not a tax cheat.

No, because he is following the house rules of the IRS. When you are counting, hole-carding, and capping and pinching chips at a casino, some is perfectly legal (counting) but against the house rules, and some is indeed illegal by statute.

Quote: Acetwo

I think the word you are trying to use is whether something is ethical (not a cheat).

No, although ethics is certainly involved.

Quote: Acetwo

In both cases you might consider someone unethical (either an advantage player or a person utilisising tax loopholes) but in no way a cheat.

Not playing by the house rules of a game, and seeking nefarious profit from it is both unethical and cheating, regardless of legal statutes or police participation. Both ethics and cheating boundaries may be separate from legal and police involvement.

Quote: Acetwo

In my opinion, ethics is any case is a personal matter. Something that it is unethical to me can be ethical to you and vice versa. Many people consider that the casinos are unethical like you considering Advantage plaeyrs unethical.

Generally in these cases, when the tables are turned, it becomes apparent, and there is both protest and understanding. Ethics and cheating are really based on two-way standards. When you own a casino, work as a dealer or as a gaming control officer, then you will see how far one will go to defend arguments that the same person would never accept as fair play or ethical once in the other's position. The argument of "one person's opinion" is invalid if that person lives and exists only on one side of the issue, which is another way of saying, "if it BENEFITS ME, then screw what the other person thinks." People can literally get to the point of "If I can get away with it - then it was legal (as I was not arrested), ethical (as it was FINE with me), and not cheating (becaused it benefitted me, and I have NEEDS too, dammit) - and that makes it so."

Quote: Acetwo

Fair game by definition of the term in mathematics (and this website is mostly about the math of games) is a game where noone has the edge, ie zero House Edge. A casino never intentionally provides a fair game, that's the basis of a casino's operations and is profit.

Not the case. ALL entertainment outlets charge a fee, whether it is an admission's fee or a house edge, it's the same thing. NO rational business can be expected to operate outside that way except for the one-sided gambler's view of the casino hall. In other words, it is an unfair game IF the casino had NO house edge, - as dealers, lights, and all casino operations cost money for your behalf, just like in movie houses and restuarants and nightclubs, which instead you understand only in THESE cases. You don't expect free entrance, entertainment and food from restaurants and cinemas, now do you? If people could bring tupperware to a Buffet and walk out with three days of free meals, they would, and would justify it to themselves, pretty much along the lines that mathematically 'someone ELSE is paying for it, - so as long as it is not me!"

People counterfeit transit passes and ride for free, even though bus drivers and train conductors must be paid, and maintenance must be done to keep things running. yet the people who do this have NO moral issue, once gotten away without a problem, not an iota.

Quote: Acetwo

Where in the rules of poker does it say that you are supposed to track discards and where in the rules of BJ it says that you are not supposed to track discards.

No rules there. In fact, you are SUPPOSED to track discards, and glean clues, etc., there in poker. Different game. Blackjack came out as a game that was believed to be uncountable, until Edward Thorpe shown otherwise in the early 60's. Prior to that, it was assumed uncountable, and everyone played it without counting in good faith, so the game was 'offerable" by the casinos precisely because it could pay for the lights and dealers and operations WHILE providing some winners and entertainment for all. So in effect we had a faulty game already in place, and House rules WERE later instituted where "you CAN play this game IF you don't count" - KEEPING its historical fair-play basis for those who WOULD play on that basis, - and with rules to restrict and remove players who violate those rules, which is reasonable. This is similar to a movie house that discovers that its fire-exit locks are pick-able, allowing people to sneak in for free, and see movies for free, without carrying their weight as to paying their fair of entertainment charges - the admission's fee, - yet demanding it as a right as "they CAN do it when they try to!" - and that it is wrong for management to disallow it - as OTHER people, people who don't do this - can cover the expenses of operations. Oh, the outrage against the evil and greedy movie theaters who are requiring us to actually pay for our entertainment and action, when we can beat the system like Robin Hoods! - yada, yada yada.
It is not a right to "beat the system anywhere, just because you can," as it costs us all - in higher house edge for the casino's case to compensate, which is met by further wailing. You are not compelled to play Blackjack - or any casino game - as a birthright or as a human right, or as a need of your life's sustenance. It's an entertainment and an outlet, and not to be considered a job, or a reasonable source of valid income, or a birthright, to be an AP trying to rip off casinos and the other patrons who actually finance all this crap, - that's a ridicuous fantasy.

Quote: AceTwo

You are confusing the terms rules and strategy.
Tracking the dicards either in poker or in BJ is not part of the rules. It is neither allowed or not allowed. It is not mentioned at all. It is not part of the rules.
It is part of the strategy that someone plays the game.

No, it is not. It is officially a documented loss-prevention issue or casinos and their management, and every surveillance worker, casino protection officer, and shift manager. "HEAT" -as it is known, is also undeniably known to EVERY card counter expert and wannabe, as an issue to guard against as an integral part of the practice.

"Casino Heat" and its defenses is mentioned in every damn BJ and gambler forum as THE major issue of its practice, from this forum on down, in spades. It is NOT a part of the strategy of legitemate play, as one does NOT participate in camoflage and heat-detection and avoidance as a major part of the practice; it is like trying to "cop drugs" in a bad neighborhood when the police are round - the camoflage efforts from dress to moderating playing amounts, and in detecting the "heat" from "the man," etc., - all of that to not get caught doing it and backed off or busted! You'd have to be either naive as all hell, deep in denial, or bent as a tire iron to think this "good faith play by the rules" and "costing no one anything!"

Quote: Acetwo

BJ was always countable. (countable means that knoweledge of the discards effects probability of future hands). Even before Thorpe, clever players were counting BJ.

Yes it was. But it was not publicly or widely known then. AND it does not make it right, because the game was offerable back then in good faith to the masses, before too many of the masses f*cked it all up for everyone, one can argue. Once loss prevention becomes an issue, it is a moral, ethical and sometimes a legal issue about actually carrying your own weight in stead of 'sticking it to the man," - which is actually sticking it onto other innocent patrons who do play in good faith, as "the man will simply adjust house admission fees or house edges to adjust for the greed of a minority.

Quote: Acetwo

Clever players identified long before Thorpe that the Ace is a major benefit to the players beacause of the 3:2 payoff for BJ. At that time the game was played with one deck only and using a rudimentary form of counting, just counting the 4 Aces was a very easy thing to do. Clever players knew to adjust betting levels according to how many Aces gone long before Thorpe. Of course like always clever players were very few and did not matter at all to casino's profitability. Thorpe just improved a lot on this and invented the first form of counting taking into account all the cards and identifying which are for his benefit and which against and to which degree. Thorpe also was teh first to calculate correctly the Basic Strategy. At his time just using his calculated Basic Strategy with the liberal rules in existence, the game was possitive off the top (ie there was a small advantage to the player just with BS and no counting).

Yes, some indeed knew how to take advantage of the casino via card-counting. For that matter, only a few knew how to pick standard tumbler locks before there really was a need for Medico locks to be invented, to address loss prevention for businesses and homes.

Quote: Acetwo

Again you are confused.

No. I am quite clear in my position, and I display it well. And this comment or claim also may be considered an ad hominen attack. I explain my point of view quite clearly.

Quote: Acetwo

If something is against the house rules, it is illegal by definition.

No, it is not. Simply wrong. It is against restaurant's "house rules" to be reeking of body odor so excessively to the point of hurting business, or going to a restaurant while being so sick you public vomit in their dining room. They DO have the right to ask you to leave, and can enforce that, but, no, they will not arrest you or call for the police. But....they have it within their right to demand that you leave, and not be served.

Quote: Acetwo

Card counting is not mentioned at all in the rules,

It is mentioned everywhere, from casino operations documents (and no, you don't have a right to see their internal operations documents), to forums such as this, and it IS openly and explicitly mentioned by casino floor supervision and by their security guards every time they tell you:
1. Sir - You are being flat-betted on Blackjack;
2. Sir - you may play the CSM machine.
3. Sir - You may play another game aside from Blackjack;
4. Sir - You are done for the night; and in some cases:
5. Sir, we will be detaining you as you violated a tresspass notice.

Yes, quite often the house rules are very clearly spelled out to you, and you would have to be in very deep denial to be unaware that you are being told some very clear rules.

Quote: Acetwo

it is not against the rules and is not illegal.

4
No:
1. it is against the rules, and this is clearly established EVERY time you get backed off. Now THIS does not happen by accident, or because it is Tuesday and it is raining.
2. No, it is not illegal, only in the sense that you won't get a mug shot and an arrest record. You may get a surveillance report or record within the gaming industry. AND...it is not illegal for a floor supervisor or shift manager to expel you off of a game, or even off of the premises, even if you do not like that, and disagree with that.

Quote: Acetwo

In any case using your brain cannot be illegal (either in a casino enviroment or in any other walk of life).

Never said that it was, unless of course your brain makes you break the rules or even break the law, quite often with your brain telling you otherwise. Now that is different, and that does indeed seem to happen. Believe me, there are TONS of people who disagree with being 86-ed, and tons of people in the joint who are convinced they are innocent. Sometimes, using your brain can not only get you in a whole mess of trouble, it can make you do things that are unethical, morally wrong, and illegal. You see, there IS a difference between "using your brain," and "using your brain effectivey and ethically."

Quote: Acetwo

Card counting means using your brain.

Breathing and picking your nose involves using neurons, too. One can argue that the fantasic medical student and military officer by the name of Joseph Mengele had quite a brain. It is all in how you use it.

Quote: Acetwo

I cannot foresee any walk of life in a Western country that using your brain can be considered illegal or Cheating under any circmustances.

I can. The human brain is quite often used - very effectively - for wrongful or unethical personal gain all the time, which is naturally justified by that same brain, which is then stunned by everything from a different opinion, to a pair of handcuffs. Happens all the time, it's called, "using our best thinking," kind of thing...you know, the old: "Well, if MY brain thought of it and thinks it's just fantasitc, then....clearly it is fantastic...I cannot see how it can POSSIBLY be wrong...."

Quote: Acetwo

Mayne in North Korea it can be illegal but certainly not in the US.

No, in North Korea, using your brain for malfeasance, denial, and the promotion of oppression is perfectly legal and is even government endorsed by government brains. They spend a lot of time there using their brains there, as they do everywhere else...

Quote: Acetwo

Using your eyes (in a game that it is allowed to have your eyes opened) cannot be considered illegal either.

Unless you are using your eyes to look into a tiny mirror or I-phone monitor to see a dealer's hole card. Now THAT's using your eyes, AND it is actually illegal. It depends on what your eyes are looking at, and if you have the right to look at it, and what you use that information for. If you drill a hole in the bathroom wall of your sexy neighbor's apartment and install a mini-cam to look at her ass, then you can't use the argument that "using my EYES makes it all legal, as I am allowed to have my eyes open in my apartment looking at my computer screen monitor...so how's THAT illegal....right??" Nope.

Quote: Acetwo

Hole carding is exactly that. If the rules of the game does not prohibit someone to have his eyes open, then any information that he observes with his eyes and processed with his brain are not illegal.

It's not a question of having your eyes open.

Quote: Acetwo

You are trying to say that if a dealer exposes by mistake his holecard, then I as a player must pretend not to see it and must instruct my brain to forget that information just seen.

No, I am not, IF you took no action to make the dealer expose the card to you, or took no deliberate or extrodinary action like stooping your head down, using a mirror, or a mini-camera; that's not hole-carding, that's dealer error, and is different. For there, you can be ethical and not use that information gleaned from a INNOCENT MISTAKE for you SELFISH Profit, or you can point it out on the spot, and say that you don't roll like that. Now I do that.

Quote: Acetwo

The only thing from what you say that I agree, is that the casino has the right to refuse action for whatever reason (except certain reasons provided by law like race, ethinicity, gender etc). And most advantage players accept this status quo.

But then of course, they have to. When the pit boss and two security officers say 'Sir, you're done for the night," most will quietly agree and leave.

Quote: Acetwo

For card counting the casino can protect itself from a card counter with various measures: Banning the counter, Changing the penetration, using CSM, Flat betting him etc.

that they do.

Quote: Acetwo

For Hole carding there is a much easier way for a casino to protect itself: Training the dealer. So there is no reason to resort to bans etc if a casino can eaily rectify its position.

Casinos provide training also. But banning is about unacceptable player action, and is not related to the dealer. Now, when dealers cheat (and they often do, too), they they too get banned and arrested and all that jazz.

Quote: Acetwo

The other thing to mention to someone finding a Hole carding opportunity is to be very carefully about its exploitation. Like card counting, if the casino suspects hole carding it can ban you. Even worse if it suspects collusion with the dealer it can prosecute you. So like card counting you need to take counter measures of not been detected.

Obviously, if you think like that. if you're going to break the rules or be a cheat in the eyes of some authority figure, the need to not get caught is obvious. But this is also makes obvious that that act is some sort of malfeasance, otherwise you would not need to hide it from anyone's eyes.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

We don't fall for the "gambling is entertainment" speil.

Would you fall for the "It's a job" speil?

Quote: IbeatyourAces

The two are totally independant in my book. Betting money on the outcome of an event is not a product you purchase.

It is exactly what you are purchasing - in a casino, a gambling hall, a sports book, a race book, or a race track. In any gambling act, you are purchasing the chance of greater returns than your purchase amount, with a risk off loss, based on the outcome of some event.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I personally bet money to win and if there is a weakness in the game (cards can be tracked, opponent showing cards, etc.) we use that info to help us win, legally of course. If gambling were entertainment like going to a movie as is compared to by some, there would be admission to the place and you would play without betting.

No. The house edge IS the admission fee, and the admission fee IS the house edge.
Respect it, accept it, and understand that.

Quote: Paigowdan

Cheating does not mean illegal. You can cheat the crap out of your 11 year old neice at monopoly, and no squad cars will come. Cheating is what a person does and how he behaves, regardless of statutes.

No you are wrong. Cheating means Illegal: Illegal either in the sence of against the law or rules of the country/state/city etc or the rules of the specific entity: Cheating in a game of golf against the golf club's rules which rules provided that you pay a fine or get barred from the club etc. Not necessraily illegal with regard to the law and rules of the country but the rules of the golf club. No squad car will come in that case either.
In the case of a friendly game with your niece it means the same thing, against the rules of monopoly. Nobody there to enforce the rules except your niece who might never play with you again.

Quote: Paigowdan

Not the case. ALL entertainment outlets charge a fee, whether it is an admission's fee or a house edge, it's the same thing. NO rational business can be expected to operate outside that way except for the one-sided gambler's view of the casino hall. In other words, it is an unfair game IF the casino had NO house edge, - as dealers, lights, and all casino operations cost money for your behalf, just like in movie houses and restuarants and nightclubs, which instead you understand only in THESE cases. You don't expect free entrance, entertainment and food from restaurants and cinemas, now do you? If people could bring tupperware to a Buffet and walk out with three days of free meals, they would, and would justify it to themselves, pretty much along the lines that mathematically 'someone ELSE is paying for it, - so as long as it is not me!"

What I said is that in mathematics the definition of a Fair Game is an exact definition and it means a game where no particpant has the edge.
In casino terms a fair game can be whatever the casino decides that it is, you say less than 4% edge, another might say 2% and another 8%.
And actually you are wrong to think that a casino thinks only in terms of X% of the House Esge (HE) without taking into account the risk.
Like any financial intrument that has risk, the HE charged by a casino usually depends on the risk of the bet. Risk been measured in terms of Variance and Standard Deviation. For a game with high payouts which means higher variance and hence higher risk, the casino charges a higher HE. That's why side bets with high payaouts have a lot higher than 4% HE.



It is not a right to "beat the system anywhere, just because you can," as it costs us all - in higher house edge for the casino's case to compensate, which is met by further wailing. You are not compelled to play Blackjack - or any casino game - as a birthright or as a human right, or as a need of your life's sustenance. It's an entertainment and an outlet, and not to be considered a job, or a reasonable source of valid income, or a birthright, to be an AP trying to rip off casinos and the other patrons who actually finance all this crap, - that's a ridicuous fantasy.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not. Simply wrong. It is against restaurant's "house rules" to be reeking of body odor so excessively to the point of hurting business, or going to a restaurant while being so sick you public vomit in their dining room. They DO have the right to ask you to leave, and can enforce that, but, no, they will not arrest you or call for the police. But....they have it within their right to demand that you leave, and not be served.

It is mentioned everywhere, from casino operations documents (and no, you don't have a right to see their internal operations documents), to forums such as this, and it IS openly and explicitly mentioned by casino floor supervision and by their security guards every time they tell you:
1. Sir - You are being flat-betted on Blackjack;
2. Sir - you may play the CSM machine.
3. Sir - You may play another game aside from Blackjack;
4. Sir - You are done for the night; and in some cases:
5. Sir, we will be detaining you as you violated a tresspass notice.

Yes, quite often the house rules are very clearly spelled out to you, and you would have to be in very deep denial to be unaware that you are being told some very clear rules

1. it is against the rules, and this is clearly established EVERY time you get backed off. Now THIS does not happen by accident, or because it is Tuesday and it is raining.
2. No, it is not illegal, only in the sense that you won't get a mug shot and an arrest record. You may get a surveillance report or record within the gaming industry. AND...it is not illegal for a floor supervisor or shift manager to expel you off of a game, or even off of the premises, even if you do not like that, and disagree with that.

A card counter is following exactly the house rules of the game of blackjack.
The rule of the game are written exactly and in great detail by the casino and these rules are approved by the relevant Gaming Commission where the casino is situated.
Check the rules of blackjack of any gaming commision in US (or any other Western Country) and you will find that noone mentions the term card counting, never mind making it against the rules. Check also anything else in such rules that would mean the same thing ie baning card counting (ie banning a a player of using the information he uses with his eyes which all the other players see and deciding on his betting and playing strategy based on this information)
You mention that it is against the rules as stipulated by the internal casino documents and as you point out I am not allowed to see these internal documents.
And as you seem to imply I must abide by these internal rules which I am forbidden to see. Are you serious about this point you make. That sounds like the rules that existed in the Soviet Union under Stalin.
I would not care less about the internal documents that I am forbidden to see. These are NOT part of the rules of the game. I hope you appreciate and agree that noone is expected to abide by rules that he is forbiden to see.
I am pretty sure that the casino internal rules use a lot the word counter and the measure that the casino should take. These are NOT the rules.
This is an internal document specyfing how the casino conducts his business.
When a casino official comes to a counter and tells him no more BJ, no more play in any game etc, he does not quote him from your internal rulebook. He does not give any reason or any quote of the player breaking any rules because simply he has not. He is just using the standard policy that any business can do (in certain places in the US, not everywhere) of refusing to provide such services to the player.
There is never any mention of the card counter breaking any rule.

Quote: Paigowdan

Breathing and picking your nose involves using neurons, too. One can argue that the fantasic medical student and military officer by the name of Joseph Mengele had quite a brain. It is all in how you use it.

I can. The human brain is quite often used - very effectively - for wrongful or unethical personal gain all the time, which is naturally justified by that same brain, which is then stunned by everything from a different opinion, to a pair of handcuffs. Happens all the time, it's called, "using our best thinking," kind of thing...you know, the old: "Well, if MY brain thought of it and thinks it's just fantasitc, then....clearly it is fantastic...I cannot see how it can POSSIBLY be wrong...."

Actually having the same thoughts as Joseph Mengele is not illegal. Is acting upon them that is illegal.
That is the point that I am trying to make to you. Whatever information/thoughts etc passes through your brain can never be illegal (against the rules) even if it involves doing the most horrible crime (unless you live in the Minority Report world and have Tom Cruise come after you)
So the actual process of observing the cards passing through (which all players do) and then thinking about them and making calculations in your head (A card counter will think of the ratio of high cards to small cards and an average player might think that the last card was a small card so the next card will be a Ten) cannot be illegal. It cannot be illegal for a card counter that uses the information correctly in mathematical terms OR the average player that uses the information in his own incorrect mathematical way.
Then both the card counter and average player make a decision of how much to bet or how to play a hand. Both having the same information, both make an analysis of the information in their head.
The act of making a bet or playing your hand (for the counter or average player) is not illegal/against the rules.

Quote: Paigowdan

IF you took no action to make the dealer expose the card to you, or took no deliberate or extrodinary action like stooping your head down, using a mirror, or a mini-camera; that's not hole-carding, that's dealer error, and is different.

Hole carding is using the information of a dealer that exposes his cards. That's the definition of hole carding.
Using a mirror or a mini-camera is using a device which is clearly illegal.
Stooping your head down: I do not think it is illegal to stoop your head. But it is irrelevant in practical terms as you can do it a couple of times and then you will be noticed.
What this thread is all about is a Dealer exposing his cards without any action whatosover from the player. All the rest is trying to avoid the point.
It is perfectly legal and by the book to use that information.

Practical advise for casinos: Watch out the short guy. Unfortunately I do not fall in that category so for me is very difficult to hole card even with exposing delears when I see them (as I said it is not a practical strategy to stoop your head down). So for me it has to be a really bad dealer to be of any help.


I have been barred a few time in my life for card counting. The first ban I had was the most classy. It was a small casino (not in the US) where the Casino Manager asked me in his office and very politely told me that "my play was too good for them. I can play any other game than BJ"
And that is exactly the point:
An average player plays with a HE of around 2% - Player is bad, Casino wants this player
A Basic Strategy player plays with HE of around 0.5% - Player is good, Casino does NOT really want this player but just about tolerates him
A Card Counter plays with HE or around -1% - Player is too good, casino does NOT want him and bans him when he discovers him.

The rest of what you say about about illegal, cheating against the rules, unethical is just wrong.
There have been cases of people banned for playing BS and not counting because the profit they leave to the casino is very small.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

We don't fall for the "gambling is entertainment" speil. The two are totally independant in my book. Betting money on the outcome of an event is not a product you purchase. I personally bet money to win and if there is a weakness in the game (cards can be tracked, opponent showing cards, etc.) we use that info to help us win, legally of course. If gambling were entertainment like going to a movie as is compared to by some, there would be admission to the place and you would play without betting.

So stop playing the table games. Those are there to provide entertainment, and when you play to win, you subvert their very existence. If you're so dead-set on winning, go play something where "winning" doesn't mean pissing on your host's rug.

I just finished reading this entire thread. Paigowdan is NUTS!

Hypothetical- let's say your friend calls you and says he just got into a minor traffic accident with Patriots QB Tom Brady; And Brady broke his finger on his throwing hand. You hurry down to the strip and place a max wager against the Patriots.

Paigowdan would consider this cheating?

Quote: MakingBook

I just finished reading this entire thread. Paigowdan is NUTS!

Hypothetical- let's say your friend calls you and says he just got into a minor traffic accident with Patriots QB Tom Brady; And Brady broke his finger on his throwing hand. You hurry down to the strip and place a max wager against the Patriots.

Paigowdan would consider this cheating?

We've had these arguments for the last year or so.

There are some things he's okay with, some things he's not. I have a hard time guessing which is going to be which. You just need to accept that he has a different view point that he is sure he is right about, and if you disagree, he thinks you are a low-life cheat.

It's just his opinion, don't take it that every casino employee or the law believes that it's right.

I haven't met him, but everyone says he's a nice guy. This is one of those cases where agreeing to disagree is the best course of action.

I have met him and he is a NICE guy. Be careful with that bet on the PATS. Two of biggest bets I lost were once when Joe namath left his brace back in New York while on a road game at Phili. Naturally the Eagles won.

Another time Bob Turley, a fastball pitcher for the Orioles was still blitzed at 4 am when i help load him into back seat of a buddy's car.
Of course later that Sunday afternoon he shut out the Yankees.

Later the Yankees traded for him and another pitcher named Don Larsen. Bob was the star in that package deal, but Don pitched a world series perfect game.

Quote: AceTwo

Check the rules of blackjack of any gaming commision in US (or any other Western Country) and you will find that noone mentions the term card counting, never mind making it against the rules.

From Washington State Gambling Commission

Quote:

THE SHUFFLE
The dealer shuffles the cards. When the game is played with multiple decks, the dealer splits the
cards into two piles; he then takes a third of each deck and shuffles them together. The process
is repeated twice more. The dealer then cuts the deck in several places. The dealer hands one of
the players a blank or joker and the player inserts the indicator card into the deck and the dealer
cuts the deck at that point. The indicator card becomes the last card in the deck. The dealer
inserts another indicator card fifty cards or so from the bottom.
When this indicator card appears during play, that deal is finished, and the deck is reshuffled,
following the procedure just explained. The second indicator card is inserted to reduce the value
of card counting.

deleted

Quote: miplet

From Washington State Gambling Commission

Quote:

THE SHUFFLE
The dealer shuffles the cards. When the game is played with multiple decks, the dealer splits the
cards into two piles; he then takes a third of each deck and shuffles them together. The process
is repeated twice more. The dealer then cuts the deck in several places. The dealer hands one of
the players a blank or joker and the player inserts the indicator card into the deck and the dealer
cuts the deck at that point. The indicator card becomes the last card in the deck. The dealer
inserts another indicator card fifty cards or so from the bottom.
When this indicator card appears during play, that deal is finished, and the deck is reshuffled,
following the procedure just explained. The second indicator card is inserted to reduce the value
of card counting.

Ok I am wrong, there is at least one gambling commission that does mention card counting in the blackjack rules.
And it clearly does not state that is illegal or against the rules. On the contrary it accepts it as a fact and tries to give some protection to the casino with a minimum penetration of 1 deck (50 cards).
I would accept such penetration for 6 decks that 'reduces the value of card counting' any time. In my part of the woods the penetration is far worse than that.

I think it's a mistake to view Dan as some sort of industry shill, I think he's just an honest guy. I'm pretty sure he'd have the same kind of integrity regardless of the industry he worked in, but being really honest helps when you're trying to get a gaming license.