Flashing 3CP dealers, bankroll management.
However, we know that people get arrested for casino fraud, and as much as we disagree, I say Card counting is not illegal, but hole carding (just like dice sliding, card marking, etc.) can be. (Read as: "Not always is.")
The point that I am trying to make is that an action can be illegal even if it does not involve cheating "devices," and this occurs by gaming law.
Doesn't mean it always is: if the dealer SHOWS you the hole card, then YOU are not hole carding. I agree 100% with that.
If YOU take action to see the hole card and it would not have been visible otherwise without this action, that's hole-carding.
Hole carding, and that type of hole carding - is considered plain old cheating.
To me.
To casinos.
To other players.
To anyone who knows what casino cheating is.
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: TheNightflyHolding up a store is never legal. Looking at a hole card a dealer flashes in my face is never illegal. Until you figure that out your just playing the same, sad old tune.Quote: Paigowdan
"Train the dealers properly and supervise them thoroughly" as your excuse of casino cheating is about as valid as saying that a armed robbery or "hold-up" at a 7-11 convience store is always legal and the fault of the clerk - because it is possible that it can actually happen, and it does. Certainly here in Las Vegas.
Stick up a convience store, and get away with it - it's the clerk's fault - and that makes it legal.
Commit a casino cheating action - and it's the dealers fault, if you're good enough criminal to get away with it, or if the dealer is new. Is that the thinking here? Yes it is!
Ditto- Dan- you aver that 'hole-carding' is a misdemeanor. I will state that, unless there is collusion between the dealer and the player, there can be no prohibition from the player, who is just using his eyes and his mind, from making a decision to raise or fold based on all the information the casino has made available to him. I am not saying that a casino can't back off a hole carder, just like they do card counters. Dan, you are simply wrong.
Indeed, and not simply wrong...to defend on ethics grounds an industry that corrupts, on several levels, every community it touches it absurd on its face.
If Dan really were concerned about ethics, he'd tell his crap table customers to go home instead and read Plato, and stay away from the stilted games provided by
his sociopathic bosses (and cheerily delivered by his very own hands).
Not likely, is it Dan?
Quote: PaigowdanBoy,
I really stirred the pot. Didn't necessarily mean to, just wanted to present another point of view, one involving law, ethics, and casino behavior, in that maybe:
1. You should consider what the ground rules may indeed be concerning that some forms of Advantage Play (AP), as it may indeed involve outright cheating, including past-posting, hole-carding, etc., which are considered both cheating AND illegal. Note that as an exception that card counting IS considered BOTH cheating AND completely legal. Doesn't mean that card counting gives you the right to carry it out at a casino just because you want to and read about it here at WizardofVegas. It DOES mean that you do have the right to NOT get arrested for that, - although expulsion from a casino and placement on a casino exclusion list are options that casinos have against card counters.
However, past-posting, hole-carding, and capping and pinching bets are both illegal and cheating - plain and simple, end of story - and YES, Johnny, you can get a mug shot and an arrest record for that could kill corporate or government career advancement, and no amount of "Dan! I hate that you are saying that here!" will change that simple fact, even if your wish-fulfillment dream of casino take-down fantasy bubble is burst.
2. You should consider playing by the rules of the house when you do play at a casino. Most gamblers DO play by the rules of the house, though many have a innocent problem as to where the cheating line really is, including many views at this board. We witness attitudes of "Hey Guys! Let's go casino cheating today, via hole-carding! - YIPPIE!!! Let's give THIS thing a SHOT!" are often presented here, and are clearly misguided and condoned.
All because I said, of all things, - you shouldn't go to the casino with criminal or nefarious intent, even if you are innocently ignorant or where that line is, or are misguided or just unaware of it. I am sure there are many people who post here quite innocently ask, "what's the best way to cheat a casino via x, y, or z method? Please help me." - thinking it is like really cool, dude. Sometimes that is what this board is about, and is sad to see. And this is not a "if I may say" position, it is an "I am saying this" position.
For the record:
Note 1: I clearly said card counting is completely legal. Doesn't mean it's completely acceptable to a casino operation, and the casino house does set the rules as to what is in bounds and out of bounds, whether or not you think this is a personal outrage from your point of view as a player. If you're wrongfully arrested for card counting, you may deserve a $500,000 cash award. Fine with me if that's the case, that doesn't break my heart, it makes it sing when justice is done, - and getting an arrest record for card counting is wrong. But yes, I also feel that card counting itself is ethically wrong in Blackjack only, even if it is legal. Card counting at Poker and Bridge is beautiful, and SHOULD be done, for that matter, IMO.
Could you kindly give us your definition of what exactly card counting is?
1. I view gambling - ("Gaming" is a softer and more PC way of putting it) as a valid and enjoyable recreation that should be offered to the masses. I actually consider gaming to be a legitimate and great industry.
2. I tell my crap players (some of whom are very decent people) to play and enjoy, and they do. My position is that you spend your time and money in legal ways, and as you see fit to spend it. When on Pai Gow, I often teach new players, welcoming even more into the fold!
3. My bosses are a great bunch of people; the last lout of the lot was dismissed a year ago. The current crew, from floormen up to the casino manager, are all great guys. Really, if you met one, you would say, "WHAT a great guy that Hector (or Bill or Demetri or Andy) is!" etc.
4. I now make enough money from Royalties to retire at 51, but I plan on working at least a little while longer.
Basically, the only thing that screws up the lovely gambling environment are the "bad apples," of which any is too many: cheats, shot-takers, players who argue with other players on how they play their cards or throw the dice, etc.
Edit: card counting is blackjack is counting down the shoe or deck to determine the ratio of "high value cards" (10's) versus "low value cards" (6's and lower), and adjusting the betting positions accordingly to seek periods of player advantage, where you would bet more. It is assumed that card counting is a known method at a gamblers' forum.
Quote: PaigowdanNight Fly,
I will be happy to directly answer your questions in good faith.
Firstly, let me say that I am not dredging up old bunk, I am bringing up valid ethical points on gambling that need thought and discussion - and disagreement is allowed and is fine.
Secondly, everyone here knows "who feels what about what;" in that regard, we all know that I view any cheats (including casino cheats) as unethical and morally challenged people, plain and simple. This view upsets people because, well, a lot of them would just love to get away with some easy and ill gotten gains if given the chance, and indeed seek out such skill sets here at this board at times, as their idea of "what gambling is about."
They further rationalize that they are not bad people; simply put, the point of view that they are morally questionable for embodying this behavior is disturbing to them, as we'd all love to think we are all lovely people when we're not. We're human, we cheat, we seek the "free lunch," we honestly care about ourselves more than others, and we rationalize and justify to ourselves that we can't be unethical people when in fact we can be, but choose not to see it or hear it.
I state this plainly, and if you want to say that "cheating is justifiable because the casinos and gaming people are "evil," "deserve it," or that "their mistake outside of fair play is my valid gain when it in MY favor, but an outrage if a dealer makes a mistake in the house's favor, even if corrected," then you may state that too - and you have.
Now I will answer concretely, giving you a final answer in a Yes/No/Maybe (when not certain), plus an explanation of the casino scenario :
1. if a dealer flashes a hole card through NO effort on your part, and you refuse to use that info to help yourself (as you would not have gotten that advantage in "fair play" and so you refuse it,) then you're of high moral character, especially if you notify the dealer of the problem, to stop the problem. Your Simple Answer here: NO (And to FrGamble, this is what I would believe "Jesus would do," and in that regard, Jesus would not count cards.)
I have a question: In just about any casino in the US with a slot machine, you will find games which represent to the player that he/she nearly won a jackpot
(the screen shows two out of three sevens, for example) where in reality the frequency of such an event doesn't come close to the actual probability. This is done
to make the suckers, er customers, think they came close to the big score and thus should keep on plugging away.
Is this ethical? How so?
Quote: RaspberryCheeseBlintz
I have a question: In just about any casino in the US with a slot machine, you will find games which represent to the player that he/she nearly won a jackpot
(the screen shows two out of three sevens, for example) where in reality the frequency of such an event doesn't come close to the actual probability. This is done
to make the suckers, er customers, think they came close to the big score and thus should keep on plugging away.
Is this ethical? How so?
I don't think it's a major issue, although many consider it "dirty pool." I don't think it is necessary action on the part of slot machine distributors to do so.
However, displaying good hands or results are more desireable than displaying losing hands on an idle machine, much in the same way burger chains advertise "Hot & juicy" - looking burgers in their adverts, when we often get somewhat stale and less-than-tasty burgers when we hit the drive-through.
For that matter, I don't think there is anything really wrong is having hot chicks model lingerie, instead of having fat slobs in panties do it. Most ladies buying Victoria's Secret undergarments don't look like the models who advertise their products, but God bless them for trying. So, is a lady a sucker for buying sexy lingerie when she might not be the hottest thing around? No, not if it makes her feel good. And it is not false advertising, because she might indeed look hot in it, much like a player may indeed get a Royal if he plays. So as long as they payout tables are posted and the machine deals truly random hands (the machine is not gaffed), then no harm done. Play if you want, up to you.
Quote: PaigowdanNot a chance of me quitting yet. This is because:
1. I view gambling - ("Gaming" is a softer and more PC way of putting it) as a valid and enjoyable recreation that should be offered to the masses. I actually consider gaming to be a legitimate and great industry.
2. I tell my crap players (some of whom are very decent people) to play and enjoy, and they do. My position is that you spend your time and money in legal ways, and as you see fit to spend it. When on Pai Gow, I often teach new players, welcoming even more into the fold!
3. My bosses are a great bunch of people; the last lout of the lot was dismissed a year ago. The current crew, from floormen up to the casino manager, are all great guys. Really, if you met one, you would say, "WHAT a great guy that Hector (or Bill or Demetri or Andy) is!" etc.
4. I now make enough money from Royalties to retire at 51, but I plan on working at least a little while longer.
Basically, the only thing that screws up the lovely gambling environment are the "bad apples," of which any is too many: cheats, shot-takers, players who argue with other players on how they play their cards or throw the dice, etc.
Edit: card counting is blackjack is counting down the shoe or deck to determine the ratio of "high value cards" (10's) versus "low value cards" (6's and lower), and adjusting the betting positions accordingly to seek periods of player advantage, where you would bet more. It is assumed that card counting is a known method at a gamblers' forum.
Well there are many other card counting systems which are different from the one you describe; how are they cheating?
What if I counted down a deck in the manner you describe and bet AGAINST suggested periods of advantage; would I then be cheating (yes, I know of at least one real world case of this)?
Quote: RaspberryCheeseBlintzWell there are many other card counting systems which are different from the one you describe; how are they cheating?
They might not be cheating. Certainly you are supposed to track discard in poker and in Bridge, and I do so when I play those games. In blackjack, one is NOT supposed to track discards and adjust play by casino convention and house rules. Blackjack originally was not assumed to be countable, and it later was discovered that it is countable (Ed Thorpe et al), creating the card counting issue with the game.
Quote: RaspberryCheeseBlintzWhat if I counted down a deck in the manner you describe and bet AGAINST suggested periods of advantage; would I then be cheating (yes, I know of at least one real world case of this)?
No, but you'd arguably be a moron, or someone trying to prove a silly point. When you flat-bet and just play Basic Strategy, you are considered to be playing "clean" blackjack.
Card counting is not illegal, but it is against the house rules of the casinos, and you can be barred from playing by doing it, without regards to how one may "feel" about the situation.
Hole carding is not illegal.
Dan thinks hole carding is wrong.
Dan thinks hole carding should be illegal.
Dan thinks that hole carders should be arrested.
Dan thinks that hole carding is akin to past posting and robbing a store.
Dan would inform the dealer if he saw the hole card due to a dealer's negligence and not use this information.
Dan says, if a player sees a hole card due to a dealer's negligence, they should inform the dealer and not use this information.
Dan believes a player shouldn't make an effort gain an advantage in a casino and simply play basic strategy for all games.
Dan thinks that hole carders are doing something that is a waste of their time and they are fools if they do.
Dan believes you should not do something that may possibly cost a dealer his or her job.
Dan believes it is morally wrong to use hole card information to your advantage.
Dan can't cite any law that states hole carding is illegal.
Dan works in a casino as a dealer.
Hole carding is not illegal.
No, but you did say:Quote: PaigowdanI never said the gaming industry is composed of saints, or that "casinos ARE ethical.
Which, to me, indicates you believe that any casinos currently in business are ethical.Quote: PaigowdanWhat the casino does is ethical, or else they'd be out of business.
Quote: PaigowdanI generally think casinos run responsible business models that exclude cheating, and use only approved games. Do you suppose kp thinks some players are not ethical, and it's a two-way street, that all sides deserve to go under the microscope?
Yes, I believe some players are not ethical. I also believe that casinos are not ethical in their behavior. You should be happy to hear I further believe neither excuses the other.
My problem is that you see all of these ethically questionable behaviors by the players which you are then classifying as shot-taking, cheating, and even illegal. I'm saying to be fair, we should also classify ethically questionable behavior by the casino as shot-taking, cheating, and possibly illegal.
I don't past post. I return overpayments. I correct dealers' mistakes on my own payouts whether it's in my favor or not. But I also count cards at blackjack but don't spread my bet enough to be detected. I do this because it's fun. And if I see cards that change the odds of my correct play (whether it those of other players or those of the dealers), I will change my play accordingly. If the pit tells me to stop looking at other's cards, I will.
Quote: TheNightflySo, to sum up:
Hole carding is not illegal.
Dan thinks hole carding is wrong. Dan: Yes
Dan thinks hole carding should be illegal. Dan: Yes, at least a misdemeaner, IF the player was the party taking action.
Dan thinks that hole carders should be arrested. Dan: Yes. Finger printed and mug shot, fine of $1,000 if it was the player's action that was the cheating event.
Dan thinks that hole carding is akin to past posting and robbing a store. Dan: It's akin to other cheating actions like past-posting. It's not like a 7-11 holdup.
Dan would inform the dealer if he saw the hole card due to a dealer's negligence and not use this information. Dan: Yes; I have done this, and always do this.
Dan says, if a player sees a hole card due to a dealer's negligence, they should inform the dealer and not use this information. Dan: yes, 100% of the time.
Dan believes a player shouldn't make an effort gain an advantage in a casino and simply play basic strategy for all games. Dan: No. Players SHOULD play the best they can within strategy and the rules of the house.
Dan thinks that hole carders are doing something that is a waste of their time and they are fools if they do. Dan: Yes. It improves your life nothing, it generally doesn't work well, and causes more problems for BOTH the attemptor and the casino.
Dan believes you should not do something that may possibly cost a dealer his or her job. Dan: Yes, if the dealer is learning or a break-in dealer/apprentice. If the dealer is an experienced dealer who is using his knowledge for cheating his employer, he should be both fired and arrested. REPORT crooked dealers and well as players.
Dan believes it is morally wrong to use hole card information to your advantage. Dan: Yes.
Dan can't cite any law that states hole carding is illegal. Dan: I'm not a lawyer, so I listen to my bosses. And I see casino cheats being detained by security for the Henderson Police Department.
Dan works in a casino as a dealer. Dan: Yes. I also work for a game distributor reviewing/modifying new games.
Hole carding is not illegal. Dan: Yes it is, IF the player had taken action to see the hole card. NO, ONLY if the dealer's actions were responsible. This is what I am told by the industry, and I accept it.
Quote: kpNo, but you did say:
Quote: PaiGowDanWhat the casino does is ethical, or else they'd be out of business.
Which, to me, indicates you believe that any casinos currently in business are ethical.
Yes, I believe and accept that casino managers, floormen, and dealers are there to run clean games, and they do. It's more often a player who attempts a cheating maneuver.
Quote: kpMy problem is that you see all of these ethically questionable behaviors by the players which you are then classifying as shot-taking, cheating, and even illegal. I'm saying to be fair, we should also classify ethically questionable behavior by the casino as shot-taking, cheating, and possibly illegal.
Yes, absolutely. If a dealer, floorman, or casino exec is rigging games or cheating, they should be fired and arrested.
It's just that many threads have the tone of: "Anything a player can say or do or cheat is perfectly all right and should be blessed, but anything that a casino worker or executive does is always dirty, unethical, and corrupt." Complete B.S.
This is not the case.
Have you ever seen a person "hole carding" on 3CP being detained by the casino for possible arrest by the police?
(Qualifiers...if BOTH the dealer AND player colluded and were held, that would be an actual case of cheating...I am talking about a player not working in concert with a dealer and also not using any device to see the hole card)
You link things together like "cheats being detained" and "hole carding is cheating" throughout this long thread and you don't really link the two you just insinuate they are similar...
Quote: PaigowdanQuote: kpI'm saying to be fair, we should also classify ethically questionable behavior by the casino as shot-taking, cheating, and possibly illegal.
Yes, absolutely. If a dealer, floorman, or casino exec is rigging games or cheating, they should be fired and arrested.
Good, we agree thus far.
What ethically questionable behavior (i.e. cheating) by the casino do we want to address first? Alcohol? Clocks? Windows? Comps? Cheques? Psychological design of slots?
1. Beverage service;
2. Amount of Windows;
3. Amount of clocks;
4. Comps;
5. Current design of slot machines.
None of these constitute cheating in any way shape or form.
Quote: PaigowdanAll the following are ethical:
Let's take a look...
Quote: Paigowdan1. Beverage service;
Ply me with liquor in hopes that my decisions are not as sharp and that the influence of alcohol makes me uninhibited in my spending...
Quote: Paigowdan2. Amount of Windows;
Keep me in an artificial environment with no idea of the outside world
Quote: Paigowdan3. Amount of clocks;
Don't let me easily see the time of day
Quote: Paigowdan4. Comps;
Allow me to feel like you are rewarding me for my drunken play so that you entice me to play even more
Quote: Paigowdan5. Current design of slot machines.
If the top prize spot shows up...and then the second one does...and the RNG result says that I had no chance in hell of winning, is that ethical???
Quote: PaigowdanNone of these constitute cheating in any way shape or form.
They are not "cheating" but are they really ethical? The casino wines me and dines me (willingly, of course) and uses all of the powers that it has to get more money out of me. Dealers selling crappy bets (Hard ways, yos, horns, etc.)? Bets with 20% HA?
Casinos are saints.
"Father, forgive me for I have sinned. I played a table game with a 4.9784632 House edge....."
"There's no clock on the wall."
"They even have beverage service, the horrors..."
Quote: RonCLet's take a look...
Ply me with liquor in hopes that my decisions are not as sharp and that the influence of alcohol makes me uninhibited in my spending...
And if you were charged for your liquor - or couldn't get it - you'd be reading the riot act as to how cheap casinos are!
Quote: RoncKeep me in an artificial environment with no idea of the outside world
You mean like an office cubicle or movie house? These places have no idea of the outside world. One can argue getting out to a casino is the outside world.
Quote: RoncDon't let me easily see the time of day
What time is it? Time for you to buy a watch.
Quote: RoncAllow me to feel like you are rewarding me for my drunken play so that you entice me to play even more
Drunken play is up to you. The cocktail waitresses bring coffee, Pepsi, and water. Drinking what you drink is your responsibility, no one else's...
Quote: RoncIf the top prize spot shows up...and then the second one does...and the RNG result says that I had no chance in hell of winning, is that ethical???
It would be unethical if you had no chance in hell of winning. You actually have a chance in hell of winning, unless you're a complete loser. Nothing wrong with the RNG.
Quote: RoncThey are not "cheating" but are they really ethical?
They are not cheating and they are perfectly ethical. If you don't feel this way, get a job as a Gaming Control Board Agent and do something about it.
Quote: RoncThe casino wines me and dines me (willingly, of course) and uses all of the powers that it has to get more money out of me.
Your claim of a mind control conspiracy from dinner comps is Bullshit. If the casinos weren't this way, you'd be wailing about how they are such ungracious hosts....
Quote: RonCDealers selling crappy bets (Hard ways, yos, horns, etc.)? Bets with 20% HA?
Prop bets aren't 20% HA. And you don't have to play them.
To any and all to who go to casinos and hate it and complain about them at gamblers forums, go to the movies and complain about movies at a movie forum.
If casino attendance is not working for you, then stop going and complaining about it and give us all a break.
Get on with your life elsewhere. Buy a light bulb and read a book.
Go to places you want to be, not where you hate it and don't want to be and complain about it.
Quote: RonCCasinos are saints.
In comparison to typical whining players who make claims of conspiracies, yes.
You write great things about game development, etc. I hope your game(s) make you a wealthy man. The issue I have with your writing on card counting and hole carding is that you've declared them "illegal" and then spent pages defending those positions only to back off the "illegal" part later on. Both are using information that is readily available to you (barring collusion with the dealer, of course, that would be illegal) to make bets that are to your advantage. The casino has the right to ask you to leave (for almost any reason), but neither action is actually against the law.
I'm not making any claims of conspiracies and I enjoy going to the casino. I'm not whining at all and I don't need to be told to get a job as a gaming control agent. I have just gone through a list of things casinos do that are of questionable ethics and your responses don't do a thing to change my opinion.
Let's take a fairly common occurrence mentioned in forums--the attempt by the casino to "ice" a hot shooter at the craps table. Since each roll of the dice is an independent event and most people have no ability to influence the dice, is it ethical for a casino to slow down play or do anything to disrupt a shooter's momentum when he is on a good roll? Shouldn't everything remain as close to the same as possible--bets paid, bets made, dice move, roll called by stick,, etc.--every time? It may have no "real" impact on the randomness of the dice BUT the house is making an attempt to change the roll...is that ethical?
I am a Civil Engineer, if I design a building and it falls down killing everyone inside and it turns out I designed it wrong, by making a mistake. I go to prision for a long time, and never build anything again.
I do not try and arrest everyone who attended the building, saying they should of asked if I designed it to be used by people.
One of the dealers in question failed to pay me out on a straight flush ante bonus, when I pointed out they owed me a bonus she just laughed and said I get the bonus when I bet pair-plus. Only after I pointed out the ante bonus, and she called the floor over did she pay me out. Not 2 minutes earlier she informed me she had been dealing 3CP for 25 years. She then quizzed me on why I didnt play pair plus, and I said I didnt like it, because it was a bad bet compared to the ante/raise bet. She laughed again and said I didnt know what I was talking about.
I bought into the table for $1500 and cashed out $2500 some 6 hours later.
1. If a Dealer SHOWS you the card on through NO ACTION on your part as player - No crime, no foul. If he LIFTS HIS CARD PACKET high enough into the air, where you have to DO NOTHING on your part to SEE it - no crime, no foul. Technically you can call it hole carding, I am calling this clear dealer error. He might as well be saying, "Sir! I have an Ace! And you have a KQ3 off suit. I suggest that you fold that hand!"..."Oh..Thanks!"
- if you report this to the dealer or to supervision to get him to STOP that action, that procedural error, you have committed no crime and are ethical.
- if you do NOT report this to the dealer or to the supervisor, and use this info that he freely gave you, you have committed no crime, and are unethical, but so what. I suppose if a movie house left the back enterance open, some people would see movies for free, rationalizing it "that an employee left the back door open, allowing this to happen" - which is true, and you can argue that it would be unethical not to "grab a freebie" when someone else made the error as part of his official job - which is true. I see things differently, but this type of hole-carding is NOT criminal on the player's part. On the DEALER'S and FLOORMAN'S part, something is definately up. The industry's use of hole-carding and hole-carders is of the definition below:
2. If the DEALER does NOTHING to show you the HOLE CARD, but YOU: a) crouch down flush to table level to see it, or b) use a concealed mirror or mini-cam to see it, or c) have a buddy who is in an advantageous position to discreetly signal the hole card to you -or "any action on YOUR part to effect this", when the dealer was dealing otherwise correctly and normally, this is cheating and a criminal action, and it has crossed the line.
3. Now, if you're telling me that there are dealers in regulated U.S. casinos who deal Three Card Poker so horrendously, and in front of their floor supervision, where you can sit normally at eye-level height at a gaming table and see the hole card, I am incredulous. We use the flush-mount shuffler, where the cards are slid flat, along the table; if they are using the old "Ace" dealing machine where the cards come out at practically ceiling height, and they are not holding the dealer's packet in the machine's dispensor bracket until AFTER all players hand bet PLAY or folded, then yes, they just might be giving this away to the players. And these casinos are operating in the "Beavis and Butthead" mode of modern day casino protection. Somebody call Bill Zender!
Quote: Paigowdanif you do NOT report this to the dealer or to the supervisor, and use this info that he freely gave you, you have committed no crime, and are unethical, but so what.
You must have had a good night last night. Yesterday this was not only unethical, but also cheating and illegal. I'm glad to see you have calmed down a bit.
Derek Webb would be surprised to hear this as he patented the game in 1994. Dealers like this are so full of themselves it makes me sick. Not only do they give you incorrect information and a pack of lies to boot, they're usually the ones who run down the road to the nearest competing casino and dump their paycheck as soon as their shift is over. Dealers are minimum wage earners who in most cases have no formal post secondary education and very little work experience outside of their current job. How much merit are you going to put in a remark made by the guy who flips your burger? Dummy up and deal.Quote: WizardofEnglandNot 2 minutes earlier she informed me she had been dealing 3CP for 25 years.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffHey! I deal and I have a B.A. Sometimes I wish I had gotten a B.S. so I could say my B.S is BS! If a dealer has a bad attitude just go to another table or casino. There are plenty to play at so why subjugate yourself to a jerk.
The jerk in question was the flasher ;-) So I just played until they ended their shift. As I cashed out I said look at all my profit and not a single side bet! The dealer didnt say a word. I'm back home now, and after counting the cash, the whole holiday, all the food and drink, all the trips and things we did, cost me a whole $5.
Quote: WizardofEnglandThey are using a flush mounted shuffler. They lift the cards high enough for me see the whole card and even the suit.
If the dealer flashed the three card poker card packet while dealing from a table flush mounted I-deal machine, something is really amiss in that casino pit. The whole point of that new design was to slide the cards from the machine to the dealer's position exposing nothing more than the top of your hand. Even if you laid your face flat on the table you couldn't hole card if done properly. Unreal. Please walk in with a gaming agent and a Shufflemaster executive, and watch the hole crew (including surviellance) get written up or fired.
Quote: TheNightflyDealers are minimum wage earners who in most cases have no formal post secondary education and very little work experience outside of their current job. How much merit are you going to put in a remark made by the guy who flips your burger? Dummy up and deal.
Firstly, I wouldn't give any crap to a guy who flips my burger; I do not want any extra special sauce with my burger......
Generally dealers don't have a college education and are in that job from the start of their career, and many never make it up to the floor supervisor's position. I work with some such losers along with some winners. A dealer who couldn't provide game protection on a game certainly couldn't make it to the floor, and shouldn't be working. If they are working, it's because good help is hard to find, especially if they have to put up with gamblers, - who cannot be fired as a player, and know it and act it. Most dealers dummy up and deal because they want little to do with a typical gambler, and should have a life outside the casino pit and its characters.
A few dealers have a college education and had worked in office careers "in previous lives," many as a retirement career that need not be taken home. I am such a case, and Nick too has a degree. Why I am on this board and designing games, I guess it's the perverse calling of all things gambling. Look at Mike our Wizard: he was too good for government work. I was a computer programmer on the "old school" mainframes (punched cards, JCL, WFL, magnetic tape) when the PC revolution came in, when I was in the "old iron" computer room. I was also a high school math teacher, (and what I expressed about some gamblers pales in comparison to a classroom full of the Bloods, the Crips, and the latin Kings. We are witnessing the fall of the Roman empire.) As for dealing it's Better money, no work to take home in comparison to teaching, but, still, alas, some gangsters to deal with here and there....
So some (a few) dealers are minimum wage workers with a lot of education who do it for the extra money and the benefits (health insurance and life insurance) in an early retirement career. Too Many are dealers just to pay for a small apartment, have slot money, and to drink themselves to sleep, sadly; others are Asian immigrants, equally uneducated, but here to pay for their new lives here outside of China and Thailand so their kids will eventually graduate from M.I.T. or Stanford. These are the "stuck" dealers who might not exist outside of a casino job, and apparently can't protect a three card poker game with the right equipment. These guys you can rip here, and apparently also right at the tables. I wouldn't put many gamblers above many dealers.
Why would he be the go-to guy for ethics questions? I'm an ordained minister, if that's the qualifications for ethics judgments, then I'm the better choice.Quote: thecesspitI think we should ask FrGamble if any of these things are ethical...
A dealer flashing is a dealer action, not a player action. "5." is the player-legal one.
It's not my job to correct a dealer. True, "It's not my job."
You are so ignorant about hole carding. You will not get arrested,you might get backed off,but your advantage play career will hardly be over.
I know many people who are in the book ,has this stopped them from playing,hardly.
You say it`s a waste of time and you won`t make any money at it. Well I have made way over 6 figures per year,for the last 12 years,so ya your right it`s a waste of time.
Number of arrests Zero.
You don`t have to put your face down low,just find a weak dealer,it`s easy,maybe the casinos will train their dealers someday,but until they do it`s game on.
well gotta go my dealer is back and shes flashing like crazy.
Hole carding, past posting, card mucking, all forms of player cheating actions are both criminal and unethical.
Please note and get absolutely straight I am not talking about dealer actions, whether purposeful or dealer error, including card flashing.
Run as quick as you can to get back to your flashing dealer! Make ten thousand dollars and Enjoy!
For those who may wonder, a hole-carding case was brought to the Nevada Supreme Court [15797, opinion filed December 18, 1984]. The NSC ruled that hole-carding, as well as signalling other players, is not criminal or cheating. Here is the pertinent part of their 133 page ruling:
Quote:"Respondents were charged with cheating at gambling and other related felonies. The facts of the alleged offenses were essentially undisputed In particular, the evidence showed that respondent Dalben was lawfully seated at his position at the blackjack table, that he did not use any artificial device to aid his vision, and that he was able to see the dealer's "hole" card solely because of the admittedly "sloppy" play of the dealer. Respondent Dalben then communicated his information to respondent Einbinder. The district court ruled that respondents' conduct did not constitute a violation of the cheating statutes. We agree.
Cheating is defined as the alteration of the selection of criteria which determine the result of a game or the amount or frequency of payment. NRS 465.083, see Sheriff v. Martin, 99 Nev.. 336, 662, P.2d 634 (1983). We have considered the briefs and the record, and we have heard the oral arguments of counsel. We conclude that in this case the district court correctly found that respondents' conduct did not constitute cheating at gambling. Accordingly, this appeal is without merit and is hereby dismissed."
Quote: FinsRuleI still don't quite know how you can holecard without being obvious. Not that I really care to.
Most of the time the dealer does not expose the player cards if he folds. If they check them, yes, it does seem fishy if you're sometimes folding with a low ace high, and sometimes raising with rags. Personally, if they expose folded hands I play only until I am forced to fold a high hand, then make a remark like "that was stupid of me" and then leave.
When they don't expose, the dealer will still show you raising with rags lots of times but that looks more natural. Many recreational players raise on everything. I will make a remark like "I was bluffing" if the dealer gives me the eye.
Quote: WizardQuote: FinsRuleI still don't quite know how you can holecard without being obvious. Not that I really care to.
Most of the time the dealer does not expose the player cards if he folds. If they check them, yes, it does seem fishy if you're sometimes folding with a low ace high, and sometimes raising with rags. Personally, if they expose folded hands I play only until I am forced to fold a high hand, then make a remark like "that was stupid of me" and then leave.
When they don't expose, the dealer will still show you raising with rags lots of times but that looks more natural. Many recreational players raise on everything. I will make a remark like "I was bluffing" if the dealer gives me the eye.
I find the "expose folded cards" rule to be very inconsistent, even at the same property. At one of my local places, most dealers just muck the folded hands, but the one dealer who consistently exposes the folded hands is also the one who always flashes, which is obviously annoying. Obviously it seems like it's not a coincidence, as in the pit has instructed her specifically to follow this procedure since they know she routinely exposes one of her hole cards. However, if this is the case, why not just instruct her on the proper procedure and remove the vulnerability?
Also, in case FinsRule was referring to the physical nature of hole carding 3CP, many dealers are so weak that you don't need to do any slouching or similar shenanigans to get a peek.
If the dealer shows all mucked cards, wouldn't it be better if you had KQ3, and you see a dealer ace, to just bet and take the loss to maintain cover if you have a dealer that is giving you a huge advantage?
This is all theoretical of course... I don't want to start a fight with anyone.
Quote: FinsRuleI was referring to the physical nature. I can't remember ever seeing an obvious flasher. I don't play often though.
I don't play much either; the last time I was in Vegas I only devoted a couple hours to scouting for 3CP flashers and I found one in that time. In my hometown I've only found one flasher across my "home base" of 2 or 3 small casinos. But if you are a more serious AP, you have more time to scout. My perception is that even 10 years after the "golden age" of 3CP flashers, they are still out there in enough numbers to make the game profitable. The picture from Eliot's post of the old-school shuffle machine with the "cradle" and the discard tray right underneath it speaks volumes. And this from a strip casino just last December!
Quote:If the dealer shows all mucked cards, wouldn't it be better if you had KQ3, and you see a dealer ace, to just bet and take the loss to maintain cover if you have a dealer that is giving you a huge advantage?
Some APs advocate these kinds of cover plays. I don't have the math handy on how much of your advantage you're giving up, but if you have a great, consistent flasher who also exposes the mucks, it would probably be in your benefit to make certain cover bets. You just need to run the math to make sure you still have enough edge to make your win rate acceptable.
