What could a new side bet be sold for.
But I wouldn't bet on it.
Quote: DJTeddyBear*IF* your idea is a good one
He said his was "on par with other BJ side bets". Most BJ side bets are terrible.
Quote: matildaBut assume it is a hit like three card poker or a let it ride. Then what are the possibilies? What income would be a reasonable expectation?
Under that assumption, which is an altogether different question, you might get a few hundred tables out at $1000/table/month for a tidy six-figure monthly revenue stream. But there are under ten proprietary games in history which have ever been hits like that.
Games generally don't just "work" by themselves once they get their first trial. To even get a game trial you have to have access to casino management at properties that are willing to take risks and trial new games. Game trials require developer support to ensure they are being dealt properly/that players are understanding the game, etc. Then games generally have to be tweaked along the way based on player/dealer response to early trials.
To me, the toughest part of the process begins after the game concept is developed, so getting someone to buy an unproven game is a long shot. That is why distributors can command an 80/20 split on future revenue. Their distribution chanels allow a good game concept to get into properties willing to take risks on a new game and they have the staffing and capital to support a new game in its infancy when the local gaming public is trying to figure out if they like the game.
You could then agree, in advance, to sell the game dependent on the number of installations along with some sort of projected revenue growth. I'm sure that you would still gain overall if you accepted a % split rather than a lump sum at the end of the year though.
Mark
Since it will cost more than 0.00 dollars, it will not make any economical sence to sell it at this price. Not interested in a spit but willing to sell it out right. The distrubutor has 100% of all future profits. What do you think would be a reasonable fee for an outright sale of an unproven sidebet?
Quote: AceCrAAckersLet us assume that this is a great sidebet for bj. While we are assuming let us make another assumption that it will do as well as other proven sidebets for bj that are currently installed on the casino floor.
Since it will cost more than 0.00 dollars, it will not make any economical sence to sell it at this price. Not interested in a spit but willing to sell it out right. The distrubutor has 100% of all future profits. What do you think would be a reasonable fee for an outright sale of an unproven sidebet?
If anyone is wondering this is just a hypothetical? Thinking of a novel way of raising capital for current projects without the cost of sinking more $$$ into new games. As every developers can attest, this business is more expensive than one expected. If one bugeted 25K, he needs 50k, and if one bugeted 50k he needs closer to 100k etc...
Quote: AceCrAAckersLet us assume that this is a great sidebet for bj. While we are assuming let us make another assumption that it will do as well as other proven sidebets for bj that are currently installed on the casino floor.
Since it will cost more than 0.00 dollars, it will not make any economical sence to sell it at this price. Not interested in a spit but willing to sell it out right. The distrubutor has 100% of all future profits. What do you think would be a reasonable fee for an outright sale of an unproven sidebet?
If the idea is novel and is not covered by existing patents then it could have value regarding the intellectual property.
Basically, the value would not be determined until a distributor looked at the concept and tried to determine it's future success - a huge task although, depending on the appeal to the distributor, I would hazard a guess at anywhere between $1 - $50K.
Quote: AceCrAAckersLet us assume that this is a great sidebet for bj. While we are assuming let us make another assumption that it will do as well as other proven sidebets for bj that are currently installed on the casino floor.
Since it will cost more than 0.00 dollars, it will not make any economical sence to sell it at this price. Not interested in a spit but willing to sell it out right. The distrubutor has 100% of all future profits. What do you think would be a reasonable fee for an outright sale of an unproven sidebet?
Assume that this is a great sidebet for bj. Do as well as other proven sidebets for bj that are currently installed on the casino floor.
If it is just an idea: anything up to $3,000
If it has patent and Maths etc...: $5,000 to $50,000
Quote: matildaBut assume it is a hit like three card poker or a let it ride. Then what are the possibilities? What income would be a reasonable expectation?
The inventor of three card poker said that getting his game into casinos was the hardest thing he ever did in his life.
And we are talking here about a blackjack side bet . I think my $100 offer was more than generous. Shufflemaster
is definitely the big gorilla in the room in getting a game trialed and/or installed. Imagine how much time, effort, and money
another distributor would have to spend trying to get a blackjack side bet into a positive return. And the inventor expects a
big payoff upfront ??? ROFLMAO
Quote: ParadigmI am sure that Switch, PaigowDan, ME and others with games in play can comment further on this, but the time, effort and expense to go from a good game that can succeed to actually getting it to succeed (i.e 20+ tables in play) is a long treacherous path even if you do have a quality game like BJ Switch/EZ Pai Gow, etc..
It exactly is. It's years and about $50,000 in math and patent expenses for a 1 in 100 shot.
For a Blackjack side bet, of which there are gazillions, it's next to impossible, primarily because a number of decent BJ side bets are free to use.
I think for side bets, Mike's quoted figure was by far the most accurate: $0.00. Casinos are particularly disinterested in BJ side bet pitches, unless they are unusually good, exceptional, like Stacy's/ME's Bad Beat Blackjack Progressive.
And as for Main table games, you're either going to do something that's already done and overlapping, or if it's a totally new game, risk the generall playing public from "not getting it," even though it's good, like Two Cards High, a split hand Baccarat.
Quote: ParadigmGames generally don't just "work" by themselves once they get their first trial. To even get a game trial you have to have access to casino management at properties that are willing to take risks and trial new games. Game trials require developer support to ensure they are being dealt properly/that players are understanding the game, etc. Then games generally have to be tweaked along the way based on player/dealer response to early trials.
Totally spot on. Unless the game is perfect and needs no tweaking by the time it hits the tables, a developer - or the distributor's agent - needs to babysit the game with the casino to see player response, make adjustments, and what have you. My game went live at the Barona, who supported the game tremendously, then it went live in Nevada at the casino I deal at.
Everything has to be 100%: fun to play, simple to play yet interesting, easy to deal, perfect math that gives about a 20% to 28% table hold, and a lot of buzz.
Quote: paradigmTo me, the toughest part of the process begins after the game concept is developed, so getting someone to buy an unproven game is a long shot. That is why distributors can command an 80/20 split on future revenue. Their distribution chanels allow a good game concept to get into properties willing to take risks on a new game and they have the staffing and capital to support a new game in its infancy when the local gaming public is trying to figure out if they like the game.
For most, distributors are crucial. The need to have open channels into casinos, the cost of getting licensed in multiple jurisdictions, and the manpower needed to oversee everything from licensing, math, and legal research generally requires an existing distributor.
And then after all that, an idiot table games manager can place your game in an impossible position. See my thread on
Colorado Switch if you doubt me. My $100 was so the inventor could at least brag he had sold his game.
A Casino that introduces a new product can either make or break a new game, and the selection of the intro casino is also crucial. Any good buzz on a game (no pun intended) can birth a new game beautifully, and any bad buzz on a new game can kill the baby.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesAssume that this is a great sidebet for bj. Do as well as other proven sidebets for bj that are currently installed on the casino floor.
If it is just an idea: anything up to $3,000
If it has patent and Maths etc...: $5,000 to $50,000
That's the problem ASSUME The old adage about that word making an ASS out of U and ME is especially true. Never mind the few BJ side bets that are currently on the floor. Look at the plethora of bj side bets listed on the wiz of odds. Now imagine how many bj side bets are patented but not listed there. And the ones that have not reached the patent stage. Factor in the diminishing number of BJ
tables, increased labor cost, etc. And what about untold market changes. Stacey Perry had STREAK installed in 10 locations and over 20 tables in Blackhawk market. Then limits were raised from $5 to $100. Stacey now has 4 table in Blackhawk and 1 in Central city.
Stephen has over 100 games, Math done by the Wiz on several, a great distributor in TCS JOHN HUXLEY, and yet not 1 table installation in the US Market. But your side bet is worth more that $100 ? I respectfully doubt that !
Quote: PaigowdanYes - absolutely true, Buzz.
A Casino that introduces a new product can either make or break a new game, and the selection of the intro casino is also crucial. Any good buzz on a game (no pun intended) can birth a new game beautifully, and any bad buzz on a new game can kill the baby.
When I saw Golden Baccarat in Blackhawk, I wondered about Golden Ez-Baccarat. Golden Baccarat is already headed for an early grave in Colorado. Someone either overestimated the Asian market in Colorado or underestimated the appeal of actually squeezing
physical cards. And those unfamiliar with Baccarat except for a James Bond movie are turned off by the commission idea. At least
the few I talked to were.
Quote: buzzpaffNever mind the few BJ side bets that are currently on the floor. Look at the plethora of bj side bets listed on the wiz of odds. Now imagine how many bj side bets are patented but not listed there. And the ones that have not reached the patent stage. Factor in the diminishing number of BJ
tables, increased labor cost, etc. And what about untold market changes. Stacey Perry had STREAK installed in 10 locations and over 20 tables in Blackhawk market. Then limits were raised from $5 to $100. Stacey now has 4 table in Blackhawk and 1 in Central city.
Stephen has over 100 games, Math done by the Wiz on several, a great distributor in TCS JOHN HUXLEY, and yet not 1 table installation in the US Market. But your side bet is worth more that $100 ? I respectfully doubt that !
It is very hard to put a price on a BJ side bet that has no installations.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesIt is very hard to put a price on a BJ side bet that has no installations.
I agree. But I doubt that AceCrAAckers will ??
Quote: PaigowdanIt's years and about $50,000 in math and patent expenses for a 1 in 100 shot.
I would said more like 1 in 10,000 or more.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesIt is very hard to put a price on a BJ side bet that has no installations.
I disagree: $0.00.
Consider this:
The chances of getting a new BJ side bet out are extremely slim. This is because:
1. They've pretty much all been done.
2. The good ones are entrenched.
3. Casinos are disinterested in new BJ side bets; there are enough to consider.
4. All major distributors have BJ side bets, are pushing their own, and won't sign up a new one.
5. To become a distributor youself, you'd have to pay $200,000 in expenses for licensing fees in many jurisdictions.
6. To develop your own BJ side bet with Math reports and a patent, you have to spend $10,000+ in real cash.
7. The market is so jammed, that even a good side bet would have a small market share.
8. BJ players generally don't play Blackjack games because of the side bets, so it doesn't matter which of the good side bets that are already existing a casino chooses.
9. You may never make your money back.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesI would said more like 1 in 10,000 or more.
On second thought, I think you're right. More like 1 in 10,000.
Quote: AceCrAAckersI was wondering, if I did not want to do any marketing nor take a 20/80 spit them, what do you think a new side bet for bj go for. Think of it on par with other bj side bets. Any comment or thought on this would be appreciated.
Another way to ask the question is - which penny slot will hit the jackpot next?
There are so many levels of which some are (not necessarily in the order below and not always every level):-
Think of an idea for a game.
Create a name.
Perform the math'.
Check the patents and write either a provisional or utility patent.
Design a layout.
Design a players' information card.
Design a website.
Display at an exhibition.
Contact casino managers.
Decide on an introductory offer.
Then, if all goes well:-
Design a contract for the casino.
Apply for approval (varies depending to State).
Pay all approval costs.
Apply for trademark protection (optional).
Design a table sign.
Train the dealers on the new game.
Monitor the game in the initial stages.
Then, if if if that goes well:-
Contact other casinos telling them about the successful trial.
Go back to previous paragraph and repeat as many times as possible :-)
The further down the levels you go then the more you can expect for selling the game. In my opinion an optimal time for SELLING the game would be after the first 2 paragraphs have been done. However, if the designer was prepared to take the 'gamble' out and accept a smaller payment in return, then, as I said previously, depending on the concept and it's originality, the value could be anything between $1 and $50,000.
Without going into too much detail, I sold an untested concept for more than I have stated above - I hadn't even completed the math' at that stage, so the maximum on my range is realistic taking into account that crAAckers stated that it was a side-bet and also that his products, to date, haven't been fully tested in the market place.
Quote: Paigowdan9. You may never make your money back.
I think there are probably fewer than 10 blackjack side bets that have ever paid for their developers' costs. Maybe 20. Of all the side bets listed on the WoO site, how many are really in the market in any meaningful way?
If you spend $25k bringing a blackjack side bet to market, and you can only command $100/table/month, you'll need to have 250 table-months' worth of royalties to break even. For example, 10 tables out for 25 months each. Look at the market to see how likely that is.
The average blackjack side bet is a bet on some combination of cards that has nothing to do with blackjack. I don't think most players really care about the differences between paytable A and paytable B, if all you're doing is paying on pairs of 7s or suited queens or whatnot.
For example, here's a free blackjack side bet that nobody will ever play:
Roulette-Jack
A "match" is if one of the player's cards or dealer's up card matches the color and number of a spot on the roulette layout. Pays on 1, 2, 3 matches. Example: a red 7 is a match, a black 7 is not.
Someone else can do the math. :)
1. A provisional patent, to protect the IP ownership of the new game. That is only $200 self-done, or about $800 with a laywer, but can be some money, $5,000 or more, if a full non-provisional/utility patent is required. Without at least a provisional patent, pitching the game idea just gives the game idea away for free.
2. A players' information sheet - How else would you know how to play or deal the game?
3. Dealing procedure/Casino "floor supervision" sheet - How else would you know if the game is deal-able and can pass game protection to get approved?
4. Math is actually required at this point to prove the game concept is sound. Doesn't have to be a full blown report for gaming, but a valid math report proving the game is sound.
I have heard from a number of distributors that this is the MINIMUM REQUIREMENT to consider signing or buying the game, otherwise the risks are just to great, as in:
- the expense of doing the math and patent may be too excessive to find out the game isn't solid, and
- that the developer has just not done enough work to be taken seriously at all.
For myself, I do not pitch a game unless I have at least a provisional patent, math on the game, formal casino dealing procedures that would be acceptable to a floor supervisor or shift manager, a players' information sheet, and a layout image. At the Game distributors I've pitched various games to, I've always had to deal the games professionally and answer game protection issues and hands per hour data. (I got two dealer associates jobs as game trainers/installers and salesmen at two different distributors precisely because the knew how to deal and had worked in casino table games pits. Distributors do check out if a game is deal-able and provides game protection.)
A game doesn't have to be proven in the casino pit to be signed or sold (but boy does it help!), but it has to be provably correct and doable for a casino.
Edit: Game inventors often have two concepts that are wrong:
1. My brain-child is the most beautiful and best child in the world, she has to be super-desirable!
2. Distributors and casino operators will absolutely flip for my super-duper new game or side bet.
After a few years, the following will happen:
1. Most good new ideas will be taken as IP, and successful new game developers will be rare or no longer really around. There is a finite number of exciting gambling tricks that can be done with cards, dice, or the wheel, and most are done. Any great new game idea is probably taken and already done - if it's any good.
2. Many good ideas will be rejected, even though they are good, as they're just not provably better than what's already in use, and enormously expensive to get out there to see if this is the case.
3. Budding game designers will realize it's a foolish vocation, just ridiculous.
4. Game distributors will be the primary users of gaming mathematicians and lawyers, and work will eventually taper off; very few clients of mathematicians or lawyers will be wannabe game designers from outside the industry.
5. Casino operators will cease trying new games, if new games aren't catching on and bringing in crowds.
Personally, I fear for the future.
This is very similar to a statement the Wiz has made in an article he wrote about Marketing New Casino Games.Quote: PaigowdanGame inventors often have two concepts that are wrong:
1. My brain-child is the most beautiful and best child in the world, she has to be super-desirable!
2. Distributors and casino operators will absolutely flip for my super-duper new game or side bet.
The following is the second paragraph from that article:
If you're at all serious about your idea, read the entire article.Quote: Michael Shackleford, A.S.A.In my experience, most casino game inventors are extremely optimistic about their chances of success.
The perception of those new to the business is that casino management will fall all over themselves trying to get your game into their casino. What is closer to reality is that game inventors fall all over themselves trying to get their games into a casino. Also, the greater the level of confidence of a game inventor the worse his game generally is.
So, who wants new games? Answer: math experts, lawyers, layout designers and makers, and don't forget the engineers and agents in the Gaming Control Boards. :-))))
Quote: RoyalBJRoger Snow, " in the past 10 (?) years, no TGD ever called me to see if there's a new game available" (or something like it)
So, who wants new games? Answer: math experts, lawyers, layout designers and makers, and don't forget the engineers and agents in the Gaming Control Boards. :-))))
Actually I read another interview in which Roger said he would look at a game, even in the idea stage. A distributor always need new
product. Having said that I agree with Dan's minimum requirements. I mean if you can not invest that little money and time in your game, why should anybody take you serious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if I could add something here.
Basically, - Yes - write and file a provisional.
It acts as a de facto full patent in terms of complete IP protection, but only for a ONE YEAR period - to either file a full patent, or to abandon it.
Why would you want to do it this way?
Well, because for $200 to $800, you will have one year to see if:
1. You game idea is actually viable, and worth spending another $5,000-$15,000 on the utility patent, plus another $7,000 to $20,000 on math, licensing, layouts and artwork, and documentation and printing, and all that.
2. To get time to see if another patent is out there that had stopped the advancement of your game idea: you cannot patent a game concept that someone else had already patented, and you will not be able to claim ownership of the game concept and its mechanisms. It isn't yours is someone else also thought of it before you, had patented it, and put it into production. Why would you spend $10,000 to go forward with a game concept that you can't go forward with, when you should go to the next game idea, if possible?
Quote: buzzpaffSwitch " Check the patents and write either a utility or full patent. " You meant provisional, did you not ?
Yes, provisional. Sometimes I type faster than my brain :-)
Thanks for spotting it - I will amend the error.
Quote: buzzpaffActually I read another interview in which Roger said he would look at a game, even in the idea stage. A distributor always need new
product. Having said that I agree with Dan's minimum requirements. I mean if you can not invest that little money and time in your game, why should anybody take you serious !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buzz you just like dishing me don't you. This question was asked in a serious manner and most have answered or responded appropriately. You on the other hand just want to belittle me for not spending $50,000, which is the average for marketing a new game.
I wasn't soliciting on this site from anyone to sell a side but wanted a constructive feedback. Most have done so. When you say "invest that little money and time" how much are you talking about? I never said that the offer of $100 was ridiculous nor should you question or belittle another person for looking at other venues. This is a forum where intelligent discussions are made, not insults hurdled.
This is one tough business to break into and I was looking for another option.
For all who have contributed with intelligent replies thank
and money. On line provisional patent is only $82 or mail a patent is $110. Buy a NOLO patent it yourself book and you
can do it. You only need to cover the basics. Re-read my comments and you will see I said Roger would look at the game
at any stage. Plus a provisional patent will offer you some protection. I offered my opinion as constructive criticism.
Sorry you did not see it that way,
Quote: buzzpaffActually I read another interview in which Roger said he would look at a game, even in the idea stage. A distributor always need new product.
Sure, let me correct my earlier statement.
Roger Snow, " in the past 10 (?) years, no TGD ever called me to see if there's a new game available" (or something like it)
So, who wants new games? Answer: Roger Snow, math experts, lawyers, layout designers and makers, and don't forget the engineers and agents in the Gaming Control Boards. :-)))) When I was 6, I said I wanted to win a Nobel prize, and I am still working on it.
His bio is 4th on this page: http://www.shufflemaster.com/01_company/executive/
Quote: RoyalBJSure, let me correct my earlier statement.
Roger Snow, " in the past 10 (?) years, no TGD ever called me to see if there's a new game available" (or something like it)
So, who wants new games? Answer: Roger Snow, math experts, lawyers, layout designers and makers, and don't forget the engineers and agents in the Gaming Control Boards. :-)))) When I was 6, I said I wanted to win a Nobel prize, and I am still working on it.
And Mr. Nobel offered the prize because he thought he had invented the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. I remember early nuclear bombs being described as being equal to X tons of dynamite. In which field do you hope to win ?
In my experience, none of my clients has successfully sold their game. Many have licensed their games to distributors, but this is done only after the patent work and math work have been completed. A few have managed to place their games into casinos without the help of a distributor.Quote: AceCrAAckersI was wondering, if I did not want to do any marketing nor take a 20/80 spit them, what do you think a new side bet for bj go for. Think of it on par with other bj side bets. Any comment or thought on this would be appreciated.
Also, there seems to be some clarification needed on the actual price a casino will pay for a side bet. Because there are so many and such stiff competition, the price per table can be as low as $30 per month. The market inundation has greatly reduced the value of all side bets, no matter the stage of development.
In my opinion, without the preliminary patent and math work completed, there is little value. Without these two, a prospective buyer won't know if the idea is patentable or if the game is logically sound.
As far as the actual value of your idea, the best way to know is to auction it off on e-bay and let the market decide.
Quote: buzzpaffQuote: RoyalBJSure, let me correct my earlier statement.
Roger Snow, " in the past 10 (?) years, no TGD ever called me to see if there's a new game available" (or something like it)
So, who wants new games? Answer: Roger Snow, math experts, lawyers, layout designers and makers, and don't forget the engineers and agents in the Gaming Control Boards. :-)))) When I was 6, I said I wanted to win a Nobel prize, and I am still working on it.
And Mr. Nobel offered the prize because he thought he had invented the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. I remember early nuclear bombs being described as being equal to X tons of dynamite. In which field do you hope to win ?
Mr. Buzz,
I don't think you got the logic. Roger said "in the past 10 (?) years, no TGD ever called me to see if there's a new game available" in his presentation, Raving's 2010 Table Game show, Mandalay Bay. This has no conflict with you said he said "I will see any game." Right? So, I put him on the "wanting to see new games" list. A distributor's seeing a game is different from a TGD's buying a game. I window shop all the time.
