Blackjack Switch is fading???
July 25th, 2011 at 3:26:12 PM
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Someone questioned about the life expectation of 3 card poker. I also saw Blackjack Switch removed from Harrah�s, Reno and may be Nugget, Sparks (unconfirmed). Any comments on why and how?
July 25th, 2011 at 3:30:41 PM
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And fast, not sure ? There seem to be too many BJ spinoffs.
" If I had the money and the drinking capacity, I'd probably live at a blackjak table and let my life go to hell." Don Pedro
July 25th, 2011 at 5:16:32 PM
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Switch has a catchy gimmick. When I told my dad about it, he coulnd't believe any casino would let you switch cards, much less in such a way that one hand makes a balckjack (though I believe that pays as 21 rather than BJ). I explained, without the math to back it up, that by making a dealer 22 push they either gain back any lost advantage or get a better deal than plain BJ, but that the switch gimmick shoudl hook up some players.
I even played it, back in 09 at Casino Royale. At the time it was being heavily promoted. The speakers outside RC mentioned it again and again. As I recall they had three or four tables, too, which is a lot for a small casino. BTW I asked a dealer at an empty table what the difference was with regular BJ, and the man explained, drew a sample of two player hands against a dealer hand, and explained how the average palyer would play them. That's good service for any casino.
I even played it, back in 09 at Casino Royale. At the time it was being heavily promoted. The speakers outside RC mentioned it again and again. As I recall they had three or four tables, too, which is a lot for a small casino. BTW I asked a dealer at an empty table what the difference was with regular BJ, and the man explained, drew a sample of two player hands against a dealer hand, and explained how the average palyer would play them. That's good service for any casino.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 25th, 2011 at 5:45:40 PM
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Switch placed 21 tables 2 months ago in Colorado. So as Mark twain said "The
reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"
reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"
July 25th, 2011 at 6:02:01 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffSwitch placed 21 tables 2 months ago in Colorado. So as Mark twain said "The
reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"
I guess if you can't make it in a real gaming market.....Blackhawk is the next best thing.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
July 25th, 2011 at 6:03:31 PM
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The above post was rude...and I apologize. I have been to Blackhawk, and it is very nice.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
July 25th, 2011 at 7:55:29 PM
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Switch is a very low HA game, and plays slow. I would put it in the same camp as Spanish as being an excellent game to play with lower variance than blackjack. So, I'm not surprised that Harrah's got rid of it. I hate Harrahs.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
July 25th, 2011 at 9:10:06 PM
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All is forgiven. I just wonder is one fault with Switch is must play 2 hands to switch. When other BJ tables are $10 minimum, do casinos make switch $20 to go ??
July 25th, 2011 at 10:12:20 PM
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I was in a casino in Washington State this week that has recently installed Switch (within the last 6 months I believe). Every table was $10 minimum (although I did find a $5 craps table). Switch was the only game I saw on a BJ sized table that was at a $5 minimum. Don't know if they do this routinely or not but that is how it was spread on Saturday night and it was busy.
July 26th, 2011 at 1:23:35 AM
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"Blackjack Switch" has just been installed into Atlantic City and has had a good start at Ballys from what I heard. Colorado and Washington are two states that have recently installed the game - installations are still increasing month to month despite the occasional removal from casinos that had the game installed previously.
July 26th, 2011 at 7:23:18 AM
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Quote: ParadigmI was in a casino in Washington State this week that has recently installed Switch (within the last 6 months I believe). Every table was $10 minimum (although I did find a $5 craps table). Switch was the only game I saw on a BJ sized table that was at a $5 minimum. Don't know if they do this routinely or not but that is how it was spread on Saturday night and it was busy.
It's confusing. A "$5" switch table is a $10 table, since you're forced to make two bets - one on each of your two hands.
Switch was just installed maybe 8 months ago at the card clubs here in Minneapolis. There's one table each at Canterbury and Running Aces. Treasure Island casino also put in a table. It's not as busy as the open BJ tables at those places, but it's more busy than 3 card poker, 4 card poker, or the MS stud, LIR, and Caribbean tables that Switch replaced.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
July 26th, 2011 at 11:20:02 AM
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Multi-bet expense to play out a hand is a very good point on a table game.
A multi-bet "main wager" game becomes expensive on a per hand or per round basis: Deuces Wild (table game version) requires FOUR bets to stay in; most poker games are ANTE plus the PLAY/FLOP, or ANTE/BLIND plus a mandatory side bet, etc. Forget about adding possible RAISE, TURN, and RIVER bets to it...Switch, if you're listening...
What Boyd Gaming's Jokers Wild casino did was make their Three Card Poker table $2, so that playing the Pair Plus, the ANTE and the PLAY bets total $6; if a player plays only the pair plus, it's still close to their $3 table minimum anyway, and it gets action that is appropriate for their clientele. A lot of action.
I have helped design poker games (mainly Hong Kong Poker and Texas Dinero) that limits the main wager to only ANTE and PLAY on my assistance ("Two bets are expensive enough!!@"), with an optional RAISE, on the casino (house-banked) versions. It also kept the non-qualifying hands much lower and infrequent.
Blackjack Switch is very fine with only two units required, and it plays great. Maybe a version with one "Center bet" can be done: Win/lose/push combined. dunno, would be too Pai Gow-ish or BJ players......
A multi-bet "main wager" game becomes expensive on a per hand or per round basis: Deuces Wild (table game version) requires FOUR bets to stay in; most poker games are ANTE plus the PLAY/FLOP, or ANTE/BLIND plus a mandatory side bet, etc. Forget about adding possible RAISE, TURN, and RIVER bets to it...Switch, if you're listening...
What Boyd Gaming's Jokers Wild casino did was make their Three Card Poker table $2, so that playing the Pair Plus, the ANTE and the PLAY bets total $6; if a player plays only the pair plus, it's still close to their $3 table minimum anyway, and it gets action that is appropriate for their clientele. A lot of action.
I have helped design poker games (mainly Hong Kong Poker and Texas Dinero) that limits the main wager to only ANTE and PLAY on my assistance ("Two bets are expensive enough!!@"), with an optional RAISE, on the casino (house-banked) versions. It also kept the non-qualifying hands much lower and infrequent.
Blackjack Switch is very fine with only two units required, and it plays great. Maybe a version with one "Center bet" can be done: Win/lose/push combined. dunno, would be too Pai Gow-ish or BJ players......
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 26th, 2011 at 11:41:49 AM
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http://pubstage.shufflemaster.com/america/wp-content/uploads/NOW-PLAYING-BJ-SWITCH-MARCH2011.pdf
Looks like I need to head out and play! Didn't know switch was in Washington.
Looks like I need to head out and play! Didn't know switch was in Washington.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
July 26th, 2011 at 11:51:15 AM
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SWITCH Do not tinker with success. 2 hands at $5 has certainly been a WINNER !
July 26th, 2011 at 12:57:17 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffSWITCH Do not tinker with success. 2 hands at $5 has certainly been a WINNER !
You're right - it is [a great game just as it].
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 26th, 2011 at 1:14:46 PM
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Mip, it is also at Snoqualmie which is not on that list. Not sure that is closer for you than and of the card rooms listed, but thought I would throw it out there for you.
July 26th, 2011 at 2:41:01 PM
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Maybe it was just removed because play was slowing and they needed the space for something else? I haven't played it for real but it seems a nice idea. And it shows you can invent a new game that is not a poker-based carnival game. IS BJS a carnival game?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
July 26th, 2011 at 2:47:35 PM
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I didn't realise that you could get this list publicly - very useful although there are a few changes that need to be updated for the new list. The 4 Queens have never had 4 tables and I understand that, in Reno, Harrahs have removed 'Switch' so that's 3 tables that don't exist. On the plus side, I think that there are new installations in Colorado and California to add to the list.
July 26th, 2011 at 2:51:55 PM
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Quote: AZDuffmanAnd it shows you can invent a new game that is not a poker-based carnival game. IS BJS a carnival game?
It's still considered a carnival game although it's a blackjack variant rather than a poker variant.
July 26th, 2011 at 2:54:59 PM
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Quote: buzzpaff
SWITCH Do not tinker with success. 2 hands at $5 has certainly been a WINNER !
Quote: PaigowdanYou're right - it is [a great game just as it.
Thanks Buzz, Dan - anyway, the game is in Shuffle Master's hands now outside Vegas.
July 26th, 2011 at 2:58:53 PM
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As the 2 hands are somewhat connected (by the 'Switch') in "Blackjack Switch" then playing 2 hands of $5 is roughly the same as playing one hand of $7.50.
So, a $10 'Switch' table would equate to a $15 Blackjack table.
Of course, most players see the '2 bet requirement' and quite naturally double the minimum as a comparison.
So, a $10 'Switch' table would equate to a $15 Blackjack table.
Of course, most players see the '2 bet requirement' and quite naturally double the minimum as a comparison.
September 1st, 2011 at 7:07:58 AM
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Quote: SwitchAs the 2 hands are somewhat connected (by the 'Switch') in "Blackjack Switch" then playing 2 hands of $5 is roughly the same as playing one hand of $7.50.
So, a $10 'Switch' table would equate to a $15 Blackjack table.
Of course, most players see the '2 bet requirement' and quite naturally double the minimum as a comparison.
You are one step ahead of me. My thought exactly when I saw the $10 minimum sign at the Mardi Gras
September 11th, 2011 at 4:23:09 PM
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In the casino I go to they've replaced the BJ Switch by Burn 20 - essentially because it gives a better house percentage. However they only open it Fridays and Saturdays.
September 12th, 2011 at 9:58:38 AM
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I bet that "Switch" will readily accept a BJ Switch table out for a new Burn 20 install since he created both games and Burn 20 is in its infancy while BJ Switch has already made it.
September 12th, 2011 at 10:23:48 AM
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All I want from Santa Claus is a fading game like SWITCH!!
September 12th, 2011 at 10:54:09 AM
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Quote: charliepatrickIn the casino I go to they've replaced the BJ Switch by Burn 20 - essentially because it gives a better house percentage. However they only open it Fridays and Saturdays.
Are you near to Manchester Charlie?
September 12th, 2011 at 10:57:05 AM
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Quote: ParadigmI bet that "Switch" will readily accept a BJ Switch table out for a new Burn 20 install since he created both games and Burn 20 is in its infancy while BJ Switch has already made it.
Although I hate removals I would agree with your statement Paradigm. The main direction of 'Burn 20' will be decided some time after November as that is when the game hopefully receives approval in Nevada.
September 12th, 2011 at 10:57:57 AM
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Quote: buzzpaffAll I want from Santa Claus is a fading game like SWITCH!!
Hopefully not fading too much - 17 new tables installed in the US last month :-)
September 12th, 2011 at 11:59:37 AM
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I think Buzz was being sarcastic.....my guess is there aren't too many game developers out there that wouldn't love to have created a game that is "fading" like Switch. The fact is that it isn't fading......it seems to be finding new places to be installed and while it may be getting pulled in a small percentage of installations, the absolute number of installs is still growing, probably at a pretty nice clip (Switch will know those numbers).
Games that are overall a big success will still have placements in specific locations that just don't work. Spanish 21 is wildly successful in WA state, but it doesn't seemed to have worked nearly as well in Las Vegas. I would venture to guess that Spanish 21 has been pulled out of casino's in Las Vegas. But try telling the Washington State gaming community that the game is "fading" and they will laugh at you.
I think it will be the same for Switch (and any successful game). Regional and local location matters for whatever reason. The locations that new games survive in long term will be different from game to game.
My guess is that Switch will cast a much wider net of long term placements than any new game for a long time. It isn't fading......just finding its niches and there will be many to find in my humble opinion.
Games that are overall a big success will still have placements in specific locations that just don't work. Spanish 21 is wildly successful in WA state, but it doesn't seemed to have worked nearly as well in Las Vegas. I would venture to guess that Spanish 21 has been pulled out of casino's in Las Vegas. But try telling the Washington State gaming community that the game is "fading" and they will laugh at you.
I think it will be the same for Switch (and any successful game). Regional and local location matters for whatever reason. The locations that new games survive in long term will be different from game to game.
My guess is that Switch will cast a much wider net of long term placements than any new game for a long time. It isn't fading......just finding its niches and there will be many to find in my humble opinion.
September 12th, 2011 at 1:08:10 PM
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I live in the south but go up north quite a bit and shall be in Manchester when Southampton (Saints) play at Burnley, and then off to Swansea (for Ffos Las racetrack)/Cardiff. I try to visit any new ones if I get to hear about them, but believe that Birmingham is one for trialing games. My favourite there was Sgt Yorke for its wonderful craps table.
I think Southampton (my local) is also sometimes used for trials. The one thing the casino liked about Switch was the strategy was quite complicated (I've only worked out some of the plays) so they felt safe that few players could beat it. They introduced Burn 20 and replaced Switch, rather than Switch lost out. They've only got one spare table, open at weekends, so I guess if another trial came along that would take over its slot.
At the end of the day it's the games that players play. Out of London there's usually Roulette, Blackjack and 3-card. Other games are around in the larger casinos - I even saw Pai Gow tiles once.
I think Southampton (my local) is also sometimes used for trials. The one thing the casino liked about Switch was the strategy was quite complicated (I've only worked out some of the plays) so they felt safe that few players could beat it. They introduced Burn 20 and replaced Switch, rather than Switch lost out. They've only got one spare table, open at weekends, so I guess if another trial came along that would take over its slot.
At the end of the day it's the games that players play. Out of London there's usually Roulette, Blackjack and 3-card. Other games are around in the larger casinos - I even saw Pai Gow tiles once.
September 12th, 2011 at 3:27:18 PM
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Part sarcasm and part wishful thinking. Not jealous of SWITCH success, just envious !!!
September 12th, 2011 at 3:50:38 PM
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CharliePatrick,
I thought that Southampton had kept 'Switch' as well as 'Burn 20' which is why I chose Salford as they have 'Burn 20' in only - maybe 'Switch' dropped off a little at Southampton.
I was in Swansea and Cardiff last week - Aspers have 'Switch' and Les Croupiers are just about to install it. Grosvenor, Cardiff have 'Burn 20' and Grosvenor, Swansea are trialing my new poker game 'XX Poker'.
The Birmingham casinos are my local casinos and I first played poker at Sgt. Yorke. Unfortunately the casino is not there anymore as I'm sure you know although Grosvenor are in new premises on Broad Street and Broadway is not far away.
I thought that Southampton had kept 'Switch' as well as 'Burn 20' which is why I chose Salford as they have 'Burn 20' in only - maybe 'Switch' dropped off a little at Southampton.
I was in Swansea and Cardiff last week - Aspers have 'Switch' and Les Croupiers are just about to install it. Grosvenor, Cardiff have 'Burn 20' and Grosvenor, Swansea are trialing my new poker game 'XX Poker'.
The Birmingham casinos are my local casinos and I first played poker at Sgt. Yorke. Unfortunately the casino is not there anymore as I'm sure you know although Grosvenor are in new premises on Broad Street and Broadway is not far away.
September 12th, 2011 at 4:24:00 PM
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thought it already had, I know in my area, the only thing that table gathered was dust
" If I had the money and the drinking capacity, I'd probably live at a blackjak table and let my life go to hell." Don Pedro
September 12th, 2011 at 9:08:32 PM
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Different Strokes for different folks. Only tables I found full on last visit to Blackhawk were Switch and 6-5 BJ. 6-5 SD BJ tables right next to
DD 3-2 Go Figure ! LOL
DD 3-2 Go Figure ! LOL
September 13th, 2011 at 3:43:27 AM
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Thanks - I did play it in Swansea when last there. There seemed to be a few variations around (i) you can't break a BJ (e.g. AT, T9 vs 9) so it gets paid before you can switch {I discussed this with management and got nowhere} (ii) you can take "even money" against an Ace (how generous!).
Southampton's table isn't open that often - Switch didn't make that much money as a few of us knew how to play, the dealers forgot the 22 rule, and the Friday lot had to make two £2.50 bets. I don't know about Burn 20, but at least you only have to play one £3 bet and the "Friday" way of playing is actually closer to the correct strategy (standing vs 10, hitting 12s, etc.)
Southampton's table isn't open that often - Switch didn't make that much money as a few of us knew how to play, the dealers forgot the 22 rule, and the Friday lot had to make two £2.50 bets. I don't know about Burn 20, but at least you only have to play one £3 bet and the "Friday" way of playing is actually closer to the correct strategy (standing vs 10, hitting 12s, etc.)
September 13th, 2011 at 6:25:29 AM
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Quote: charliepatrickThanks - I did play it in Swansea when last there. There seemed to be a few variations around (i) you can't break a BJ (e.g. AT, T9 vs 9) so it gets paid before you can switch {I discussed this with management and got nowhere} (ii) you can take "even money" against an Ace (how generous!).
I always showed the variation that allowed players to 'Switch' a Blackjack - it may not have been explained to them by the time the game got to the casino.
Taking 'even money' against an Ace was an optional rule and was worth around 0.1% to the player.
September 13th, 2011 at 4:14:18 PM
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Thanks for your help: is the switching out of BJ an option or, given the rules probably say you can switch first, something that one should be allowed to do. I believe, though obviously they won't show me, a copy of the optimal strategy was shown to the casinos; and assume it includes the list (not that long) when a player should switch out of a BJ.
As an aside, as I'm sure you know, the convention of offering even money is technically an option that a player takes to make a bet that pays 2/1, so it seems illogical for a casino to offer "Even Money" as it can't be accomplished by the bet mechanism. (I don't know if true, I heard that a casino once prevented a player take even money since that actually construed lending the player the money to make the bet - seems stupid, but that's the story.)
In Southampton, Grosvenor didn't allow the "Even Money" option, whereas Stanleys did - so perhaps that is why it wasn't being played so often. A smart operator would have added a "bonus" that all dealt BJs won!
As an aside, as I'm sure you know, the convention of offering even money is technically an option that a player takes to make a bet that pays 2/1, so it seems illogical for a casino to offer "Even Money" as it can't be accomplished by the bet mechanism. (I don't know if true, I heard that a casino once prevented a player take even money since that actually construed lending the player the money to make the bet - seems stupid, but that's the story.)
In Southampton, Grosvenor didn't allow the "Even Money" option, whereas Stanleys did - so perhaps that is why it wasn't being played so often. A smart operator would have added a "bonus" that all dealt BJs won!
September 17th, 2011 at 2:35:29 PM
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Just an quick update after visiting all three in Southampton this week: switch has now left town as the other casino that used to have it doesn't anymore. Also Grosvenor's Burn 20 has now gone.
December 8th, 2011 at 8:32:44 PM
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There's a new Aspers casino that has opened in London about a week ago - near Stratford where the Olympics will be next year. For those who know the Gaming/Gambling Acts etc. it is the first to open under the new rules (as it is big enough) and has many more fruit machines that other UK casinos and quite a range of table games. I played at a £2 BJ Switch, which is next door to the Casino War table!
December 8th, 2011 at 9:29:26 PM
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Aspers are the only group who have had considerable success with 'Switch' and the guy in charge there really likes the game.
'Burn 20' was not given enough chance to flourish, IMO, although the ENHC version is not as good as the US version.
I will be heading down to the new Aspers towards Christmas so I'll drop you a note when I'm heading there and maybe we can grab a beer?
Thanks for the updates Charlie.
'Burn 20' was not given enough chance to flourish, IMO, although the ENHC version is not as good as the US version.
I will be heading down to the new Aspers towards Christmas so I'll drop you a note when I'm heading there and maybe we can grab a beer?
Thanks for the updates Charlie.
February 7th, 2012 at 5:49:31 AM
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Fitzgerarlds took it out yesterday and replaced it with a 3 card poker table.
February 7th, 2012 at 6:28:43 AM
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Quote: NicksGamingStuffFitzgerarlds took it out yesterday and replaced it with a 3 card poker table.
Disappointing but it doesn't surprise me - there is a new manager there and he doesn't like the game.
February 7th, 2012 at 6:44:50 AM
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Switch is by far my favorite variation of Blackjack. I hope the game survives.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
February 7th, 2012 at 7:51:56 AM
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It's probably been about 6-8 months, but Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, IN got rid of the two tables they had to make room for Mississippi Stud and adding the progressive on all the poker-based games. This leaves Rising Sun as the only casino in the Southern IN market to offer the game. They do try to keep it open as much as possible, but it's in their secondary pit, and it is Rising Star, so who knows what the future is?
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 7th, 2012 at 8:17:50 AM
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Quote: boymimboSwitch is by far my favorite variation of Blackjack. I hope the game survives.
Seconded :-) Thanks boymimbo.
There are still 100+ tables in the US so hopefully it will last a while longer.
February 7th, 2012 at 10:14:46 AM
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I wonder what the reasons were (for the disliking) - bad numbers? It's a great innovation.Quote: SwitchDisappointing but it doesn't surprise me - there is a new manager there and he doesn't like the game.
February 7th, 2012 at 12:50:14 PM
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Quote: RoyalBJI wonder what the reasons were (for the disliking) - bad numbers? It's a great innovation.
James Grosjean says all these new game variations
are the Achilles Heel of the casino. Many of them
are very beatable for an AP. But its not like it was
with Thorp and his big mouth, announcing to the
world how to beat BJ. If a game can be beaten now,
its kept a secret so the maximum amount can be
gotten from it. Grosjean claims to be the one that took
down Baccalette and buried it. He says "Baccalette
was so obviously beatable that if we didn't kill it,
somebody else would have."
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 7th, 2012 at 1:05:41 PM
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Quote: RoyalBJI wonder what the reasons were (for the disliking) - bad numbers? It's a great innovation.
Good guess - a high roller, at a previous casino where the manager worked, had 2 or 3 big wins on the game and so the hold % took a nosedive.
February 7th, 2012 at 1:16:11 PM
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Quote: EvenBobGrosjean claims to be the one that took
down Baccalette and buried it. He says "Baccalette
was so obviously beatable that if we didn't kill it,
somebody else would have."
Baccalette? U meant "Baccarat" in USA? It's the most profitable game that saved Las Vegas in the past 2-4 years, thanks to the Chinese players. May be you did not mean Baccarat.
February 7th, 2012 at 1:28:41 PM
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Quote: RoyalBJBaccalette? U meant "Baccarat" in USA? It's the most profitable game that saved Las Vegas in the past 2-4 years, thanks to the Chinese players. May be you did not mean Baccarat.
Baccalette is more like roulette, but with cards. Actually, it's not that different at all from the card-based roulette at some casinos in CA. I think the name is baccarat + roulette = baccalette.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
