"Experienced Craps Player"
Seneca Allegany Casino & Hotel: experienced craps player
EXPERIENCED CRAPS PLAYER HEREWhen I arrived and found out their craps rules I was pleasantly surprised. If a player does not like what comes up on the first roll (other than 7/11 2/3) he can take his money off the table. Thats a tremendous player advantage and I had never played under rules that were that benefical to the player. There were not many players on the days I was there. Perhaps 4 including me. Most everyone was betting 5 or 10. I was betting 50. I lost $1000 in roughly a half hour. That has never happened to me at that speed ever in the 5 years I have been playing craps. I was playing safe and playing the donts and always removed my bet if 6/8 came up and always took full odds if 4/10/5/9 came up. Either I had a very unlucky day or the game is rigged. I'll let u decide which.Regards
Quote: teddysI love this (posted on another board):
Seneca Allegany Casino & Hotel: experienced craps player
EXPERIENCED CRAPS PLAYER HEREWhen I arrived and found out their craps rules I was pleasantly surprised. If a player does not like what comes up on the first roll (other than 7/11 2/3) he can take his money off the table. Thats a tremendous player advantage and I had never played under rules that were that benefical to the player. There were not many players on the days I was there. Perhaps 4 including me. Most everyone was betting 5 or 10. I was betting 50. I lost $1000 in roughly a half hour. That has never happened to me at that speed ever in the 5 years I have been playing craps. I was playing safe and playing the donts and always removed my bet if 6/8 came up and always took full odds if 4/10/5/9 came up. Either I had a very unlucky day or the game is rigged. I'll let u decide which.Regards
What??? Does this apply to the "right way" players too?
Quote: SOOPOOI need an mkl essay about this guy.....
You do realize, I haven't written a single essay at any time, anywhere on this site? Or do you not know what an essay is?
Anyway, my commentary on this guy would be quite short: "idiot".
He did this in combination with a normal Don't Pass bet, which he left alone and played like normal.
I never did figure out what his supposed "strategy" was...
Quote: ElectricDreamsI saw one better a few nights ago: This idiot standing near the Don't Come and had a red chip sitting in the Don't Come box. If his bet made it past the come-out roll, he would call "no action" on the bet and leave it in the DC box for the next roll!
He did this in combination with a normal Don't Pass bet, which he left alone and played like normal.
I never did figure out what his supposed "strategy" was...
Wow. That's crazy. I've seen that happen on the 6 and 8 for the DC box but what a waste.
Quote: boymimboWow. That's crazy. I've seen that happen on the 6 and 8 for the DC box but what a waste.
No kidding. I really wanted to tell him how ridiculous his strategy was, but I learned early in my (short so far) gambling hobby not to tell people in a casino how to bet.
If he is an experienced craps player, I'd hate to meet an inexperienced craps player.Quote: teddysI love this (posted on another board):
I was playing the donts and always removed my bet if 6/8 came up and always took full odds if 4/10/5/9 came up.
Often dealers will encourage "No Action" on a DontCome bet unless the point becomes 6 or 8. This "experienced" craps player was actually removing his money when the 6 or 8 was the point. Absurd. Ofcourse its mathematically wrong to remove or call No Action on any Don'tCome bet.
He went broke fast? Yeah, I'm not surprised. Helpful dealers at that casino, I guess.
Well, he can get his money back very easily. All he has to do is get a job writing a Craps Column somewhere.
Quote: FleaStiffHe went broke fast? Yeah, I'm not surprised. Helpful dealers at that casino, I guess.
Well, he can get his money back very easily. All he has to do is get a job writing a Craps Column somewhere.
Now you've done it. Here comes "Rob Crapsinger".
Quote: mkl654321Now you've done it. Here comes "Rob Crapsinger".
He can write about how with Mathematically unsound play and a lot of luck, he won eleventy nano-billion dollars betting the field at Harrah's properties!
Quote: rdw4potusHe can write about how with Mathematically unsound play and a lot of luck, he won eleventy nano-billion dollars betting the field at Harrah's properties!
That'd be $110, no?
Let's see, that'd be eleventy x 10^-9 x 10^9 = eleventy dollars. Not sure -- is that $110 or $11? I never really studied the eleventies in math class.Quote: MathExtremistThat'd be $110, no?Quote: rdw4potusHe can write about how with Mathematically unsound play and a lot of luck, he won eleventy nano-billion dollars betting the field at Harrah's properties!
In Vegas, you can do the eleventies by eight and Five Hundy by Midnight.Quote: DocLet's see, I never really studied the eleventies in math class.
Quote: ElectricDreamsI saw one better a few nights ago: This idiot standing near the Don't Come and had a red chip sitting in the Don't Come box. If his bet made it past the come-out roll, he would call "no action" on the bet and leave it in the DC box for the next roll!
He did this in combination with a normal Don't Pass bet, which he left alone and played like normal.
I never did figure out what his supposed "strategy" was...
This is a very common don't player strategy.
They will bet the come out roll and after a point is established will make a don't come bet.
But if an inside number rolls, 5,6,8 or 9 they call "no action" on the don't come bet. Why? Because half of all dice rolls are the inside numbers. That is what was explained to me many times when I was a dice dealer.
They only want the 4 and or 10 and will always call "no action" when an inside number has rolled.
Also they win the don't come bet 3 ways, (2,3) and lose the don't come bet 8 ways (yo 11,7).
And the 7out will make the don't come bet lose but will win the don't pass bet.
A good grind system.
Now if he always called no action on all the point numbers, then he must have just been out of his mind.
No, it's not. Calling no action on the 5,6,8,9 will put you at a significant disadvantage over the long term. On a 6,8 point, you have 6 ways to win and 5 ways to lose. On a 5,9 point, you have 6 ways to win and 4 ways to lose. That's where your advantage comes in; not on the come out, which as you pointed out is a significant disadvantage to the don'ts player. Calling no action on the inside numbers makes an already negative expectation bet even worse. (Can anybody quantify the increase in house edge? It would have to be a couple percentage points.)Quote: 7winnerBut if an inside number rolls, 5,6,8 or 9 they call "no action" on the don't come bet. Why? Because half of all dice rolls are the inside numbers. That is what was explained to me many times when I was a dice dealer.
They only want the 4 and or 10 and will always call "no action" when an inside number has rolled.
Also they win the don't come bet 3 ways, (2,3) and lose the don't come bet 8 ways (yo 11,7).
And the 7out will make the don't come bet lose but will win the don't pass bet.
A good grind system.
There is no difference between the don't come and the don't pass other than timing issues.
A better grind system would be just making minimum don't bets, come or pass. Never call no action on your bets. THAT'S being out of your mind.
Quote: teddysI love this (posted on another board):
Seneca Allegany Casino & Hotel: experienced craps player
EXPERIENCED CRAPS PLAYER HEREWhen I arrived and found out their craps rules I was pleasantly surprised. If a player does not like what comes up on the first roll (other than 7/11 2/3) he can take his money off the table. Thats a tremendous player advantage and I had never played under rules that were that benefical to the player. There were not many players on the days I was there. Perhaps 4 including me. Most everyone was betting 5 or 10. I was betting 50. I lost $1000 in roughly a half hour. That has never happened to me at that speed ever in the 5 years I have been playing craps. I was playing safe and playing the donts and always removed my bet if 6/8 came up and always took full odds if 4/10/5/9 came up. Either I had a very unlucky day or the game is rigged. I'll let u decide which.Regards
The original post can be found here. No takers there yet.
http://forum.americancasinoguide.com/trip-reports/3149-seneca-allegany-casino-hotel-experienced-craps-player.html
Seneca Allegany Casino & Hotel
I contacted them by phone and they have no idea what this joker is talking about.
They directed me to their website where the rules of their Craps game can be seen.
http://www.senecaalleganycasino.com/casino-tables.cfm
Can't believe everything we read on the web!
Quote: teddysNo, it's not. Calling no action on the 5,6,8,9 will put you at a significant disadvantage over the long term.
I have also seen many don't players play that way also.
They are the quiet ones at the craps table and the dealers know exactly what type of players they are.
They seem to stay at the table the longest, have free drinks and either grind out a profit or grind out a small loss.
No one here disagrees that calling "no action" is a long run disaster.
But for the short run, where every craps player lives, they seem to hold their own.
I have tried a few times to tell one of these type of players they are not making the best bets by passing on a don't come number...even offering to buy the don't come bet, they just looked at me as I was a piece of trash. They could not care less.
I keep my mouth shut now. It is easier to have a bigger smile that way!
Quote: guido111I have also seen many don't players play that way also.
They are the quiet ones at the craps table and the dealers know exactly what type of players they are.
Most don't players are quiet. For every 100 pass line bettors that play the same way, either no odds or always double odds, the don't players are all over the place with their different strategies.
In my 30 years of dealing dice, I'd have to say the ones that bet the don't pass and made don't come bets with action only on the 4 or 10 were a very small minority.
Still, they toked. Any George is a good George in my book.
If you don't like variance, you shouldn't gamble.
Calling no action on the DC or DP is a variation of hedging your bets. It's like the Iron Cross; trading less variance for more expected loss. They are just hurting themselves, because they come in a lot, and those small losses will add up quickly.
I guarantee that with the same bankroll, I can stay at a table longer playing flat DP than the guys who pick up their bets on the inside numbers. I'd like to see a WinCraps simulation of that.
Quote: teddys
I guarantee that with the same bankroll, I can stay at a table longer playing flat DP than the guys who pick up their bets on the inside numbers. I'd like to see a WinCraps simulation of that.
I agree you are 100% correct.
But you also are mixing up what is being talked about here.
Quote: ElectricDreams
I saw one better a few nights ago: This idiot standing near the Don't Come and had a red chip sitting in the Don't Come box. If his bet made it past the come-out roll, he would call "no action" on the bet and leave it in the DC box for the next roll!
He did this in combination with a normal Don't Pass bet, which he left alone and played like normal.
I never did figure out what his supposed "strategy" was...
ElectricDreams was trying to figure out what his supposed "strategy" was...
NOT the person you started this thread out with.
7winner explained his view from being an ex-Craps dealer and I voiced mine from my experience.
A WinCraps sim would be that of a don't player that makes don't pass bets and only allows action on a don't come 4 or 10 vs. just a don't pass player. The don't pass player should win most times but I think it would be close.
I do not think any one here would play that way, but people do.
Now, try to convince them to see their evil ways, I say good luck in that.
Quote: 7winnerNow if he always called no action on all the point numbers, then he must have just been out of his mind.
He called no action on every don't come bet. Every single one.
It was quite a thing to watch. I was also impressed with the dealers; they didn't react one way or the other to his bet, so they either hid it well or didn't know any better.
Of course, I'm sure dealers could probably care less how people bet, as long as they tip.
Player places a DC and only puts in in for odds on the 4 and 10.
So, if a 7 or 11 is rolled, he loses. If a 2-3 is rolled, he wins. If a 5-6-8-9-12 is rolled, he pushes. If a 4-10 is rolled the don't goes to the number and it is assumed that they will lay odds, let's say 6x to get 3x.
The EV of all of this is: 3/36 - 8/36 + 6/36 x (4 x 6/9 - 7 x 3/9) = -.083333.
The Average bet is (1 unit x 30/36 + 7 units x 6/36)/36 = 2 units, so the HA is = .0833333 / 2 = .04167 = 4.17 percent.
It's not awful, but there are better ways to make use of the DC.
Quote: boymimboI'm still trying to figure out the logic on the DC bet with no action.
Player places a DC and only puts in in for odds on the 4 and 10.
So, if a 7 or 11 is rolled, he loses. If a 2-3 is rolled, he wins. If a 5-6-8-9-12 is rolled, he pushes. If a 4-10 is rolled the don't goes to the number and it is assumed that they will lay odds, let's say 6x to get 3x.
The EV of all of this is: 3/36 - 8/36 + 6/36 x (4 x 6/9 - 7 x 3/9) = -.083333.
The Average bet is (1 unit x 30/36 + 7 units x 6/36)/36 = 2 units, so the HA is = .0833333 / 2 = .04167 = 4.17 percent.
It's not awful, but there are better ways to make use of the DC.
Most players that I see play this don't pass/don'come system make 1 don't pass and 1 don't come and lay no odds.
Its their money, they gamble the way they want to.
They have won using it before and will keep on doing it.
To them there is no logic and no use trying to explain it to them.
ElectricDreams says the guy never let his don't come go to a number?
I find that hard to believe but the guy must have just been plain nuts.
The original question - Can you lose $1000 in a half hour playing the don't with max odds against a 4, 10, 5, or 9 on a $50 flat bet?
Of course. On a 3-4-5 table (forget the "5" because the "experienced craps player" picked up the 6/8) a $50 bet at max odds requires $300 - how many losses do you need to blow $1000 in a half an hour - minimum three and your last odds will only be about $250 (249 if a 5 or 9). Since the predominant point in that half hour would be the 6 or 8 and he picked those up - losing on three 4/10/5/9 bets is pretty simple. I know from experience that you can lose three don't bets in a row. It's painful but oh well.
Would I consider that table to be fixed? Nope.
Quote: 7winnerElectricDreams says the guy never let his don't come go to a number?
I find that hard to believe but the guy must have just been plain nuts.
I promise you, that's what this guy was doing. Didn't matter the point, he called no action and left the bet in the DC box for the next roll.
Again, I have absolutely no idea why. Like I mentioned before, he also had a Don't Pass bet that he left past the come out roll, which makes even less sense if he was trying to make some sort of strategy out of the two.
I don't think he was flat betting $50. Even an "experienced" craps player would know to put most of his action on the odds. I think Seneca has 10x odds, so he was probably betting $5 with $50 lay on the 4,5,9,10 points. Even THEN, it is eminently possible to lose a bankroll of $1000 over a long session. I used to play the don't pass exclusively at my local--flat bet of $10 plus lay of $60 on every point--and lord, did I have some bad streaks.Quote: MartinI don't think that this guy is as experienced as he thinks he is.
The original question - Can you lose $1000 in a half hour playing the don't with max odds against a 4, 10, 5, or 9 on a $50 flat bet?
Of course. On a 3-4-5 table (forget the "5" because the "experienced craps player" picked up the 6/8) a $50 bet at max odds requires $300 - how many losses do you need to blow $1000 in a half an hour - minimum three and your last odds will only be about $250 (249 if a 5 or 9). Since the predominant point in that half hour would be the 6 or 8 and he picked those up - losing on three 4/10/5/9 bets is pretty simple. I know from experience that you can lose three don't bets in a row. It's painful but oh well.
Would I consider that table to be fixed? Nope.
Edit: Okay, maybe not in a half an hour. So he probably was betting more. Either way he's a moron.
I'm in Harrahs AC and a guy comes up and stands beside me. He's a young guy maybe in his late 20's. He pulls a roll of Benjamin's out of his pocket and it is big enough to choke a very large horse. He proceeds to drop $1025 on the table and says - "no four." Dealer sets his lay bet and bam! - comes the 4. He does it again and again comes the 4. He does it one more time and one more time comes the 4. Three fours in a row - we've all seen it.
I'm a curious guy by nature so I ask him - "why do you play against the 4" - he says - "because the 10 comes too often" and then he walks away.
Quote: MartinSpeaking of "morons at the craps table" -
I'm in Harrahs AC and a guy comes up and stands beside me. He's a young guy maybe in his late 20's. He pulls a roll of Benjamin's out of his pocket and it is big enough to choke a very large horse. He proceeds to drop $1025 on the table and says - "no four." Dealer sets his lay bet and bam! - comes the 4. He does it again and again comes the 4. He does it one more time and one more time comes the 4. Three fours in a row - we've all seen it.
I'm a curious guy by nature so I ask him - "why do you play against the 4" - he says - "because the 10 comes too often" and then he walks away.
And you watched this happen and didn't buy or place the 4 immediately after he made his first bet? For shame! We KNOW that the 4 became a 100-1 favorite to roll the moment that guy put down the $1025!
Quote: mkl654321And you watched this happen and didn't buy or place the 4 immediately after he made his first bet? For shame! We KNOW that the 4 became a 100-1 favorite to roll the moment that guy put down the $1025!
I hardly know how to respond to this - I don't think the act of laying a number has anything to do with frequency of a 7 appearing. You must have some other moron in mind.
