Nimadamus
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January 1st, 2020 at 8:02:43 PM permalink
About 15 years ago, a buddy of mine showed me Pai Gow poker, and I also worked as a third party proposition player for one of those gaming corporations you see in the card rooms. I developed a liking for pai poker and that and blackjack were my games of choice. It used to be a decent game, and seemed pretty fair. Win some, lose some. I would bank often and sometimes it would work sometimes it wouldnt. Nothing really alarming.

Now, fast forward to recent years. Not only has regular pai gow seemingly gotten worse (the dealer getting better hands far too often) but Im sure you're aware that recently there has been a new variation called Face up Pai Gow. It is so utterly shameless that it is truly laughable. The dealer gets two pairs, or an ace high (which is a push) so astonishingly reegularly that it cant possibly be random. They will run off 20 Ace highs without ever getting a King or Queen High. I know Im not this unlucky. When they are not getting an Ace high or Pair-Pair they are getting A straight with an Ace, or a flush with a pair, Full house, etc. Maybe one out of every 10 times do they get a bad hand. EVERY TIME. I am not exaggerating and I am absolutely certain that this cant possibly be a coincidence. If you didnt know, when the dealer gets an Ace high that means every hand automatically pushes.

Believe me, I understand how this could possibly come across to a stranger online, Hell, if I read this I might laugh too. However I guarantee you would think the same if you had witnessed what I have. I have a buddy who is a big time gambler with years of experience and literally millions of dollars wagered, and he wholeheartedly agrees. True story.


I was wondering what others who have played this game thought. And no I am just an insanely unlucky person. I have had dozens of winning sessions at blackjacks and also pai gow, (regular pai gow, not the face up version).
Zcore13
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January 1st, 2020 at 11:57:16 PM permalink
Quote: Nimadamus

About 15 years ago, a buddy of mine showed me Pai Gow poker, and I also worked as a third party proposition player for one of those gaming corporations you see in the card rooms. I developed a liking for pai poker and that and blackjack were my games of choice. It used to be a decent game, and seemed pretty fair. Win some, lose some. I would bank often and sometimes it would work sometimes it wouldnt. Nothing really alarming.

Now, fast forward to recent years. Not only has regular pai gow seemingly gotten worse (the dealer getting better hands far too often) but Im sure you're aware that recently there has been a new variation called Face up Pai Gow. It is so utterly shameless that it is truly laughable. The dealer gets two pairs, or an ace high (which is a push) so astonishingly reegularly that it cant possibly be random. They will run off 20 Ace highs without ever getting a King or Queen High. I know Im not this unlucky. When they are not getting an Ace high or Pair-Pair they are getting A straight with an Ace, or a flush with a pair, Full house, etc. Maybe one out of every 10 times do they get a bad hand. EVERY TIME. I am not exaggerating and I am absolutely certain that this cant possibly be a coincidence. If you didnt know, when the dealer gets an Ace high that means every hand automatically pushes.

Believe me, I understand how this could possibly come across to a stranger online, Hell, if I read this I might laugh too. However I guarantee you would think the same if you had witnessed what I have. I have a buddy who is a big time gambler with years of experience and literally millions of dollars wagered, and he wholeheartedly agrees. True story.


I was wondering what others who have played this game thought. And no I am just an insanely unlucky person. I have had dozens of winning sessions at blackjacks and also pai gow, (regular pai gow, not the face up version).



Your perception of reality is off. Regular Pai Gow has not gotten worse. It's still the same. You also did not see 20 Ace high Psi Gows before any King or Queen high's. And if your friend thinks the same stuff as you, he's got a real problems gambling millions of dollars on rigged games.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
SiegfriedRoy
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January 2nd, 2020 at 6:18:10 AM permalink
I've logged in about 15 hours of face up pai gows (tables with varying number of players 1v1 to full). I've kept track of how many A-high pai gows I've had so far and it was 18 in the 15 hour session. Of the 18 A-high Pai Gows, I've had 3 that worked in my favor as I had a lower pai gows which resulted in me pushing rather than losing if I had played in a traditional PGP game. 15 hours is a small sample-size, but I can see the allure of this game to new players. I would have to agree with ZCore13.
SM777
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January 2nd, 2020 at 7:01:58 AM permalink
Another "game or shuffler is rigged" thread?

Yawn.....
Gialmere
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January 2nd, 2020 at 8:01:38 AM permalink
Quote: SiegfriedRoy

I've logged in about 15 hours of face up pai gows (tables with varying number of players 1v1 to full). I've kept track of how many A-high pai gows I've had so far and it was 18 in the 15 hour session. Of the 18 A-high Pai Gows, I've had 3 that worked in my favor as I had a lower pai gows which resulted in me pushing rather than losing if I had played in a traditional PGP game. 15 hours is a small sample-size, but I can see the allure of this game to new players. I would have to agree with ZCore13.


Same story for me. When I play FUPGP I'll see a dealer ace-high pai gow around once (maybe twice) an hour. The only debate here at WOV has been do you like face up since you'll always play your hand correctly, or do you dislike it since it takes all the skill out of the game.

Nimadamus, if you don't mind, where do you play at?
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
SOOPOO
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January 2nd, 2020 at 9:40:49 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

or do you dislike it since it takes all the skill out of the game.



I'm in the dislike camp. It would be no more or less interesting than betting on a coin flip. Or playing baccarat!
Calder
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January 2nd, 2020 at 10:54:54 AM permalink
Quote: Nimadamus

...True story...


A phrase that immediately invites skepticism on a message board.
sabre
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January 2nd, 2020 at 11:25:29 AM permalink
It's incredible the depths people will sink to to justify why they lost on a negative expectation game designed to make them lose.
Nimadamus
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January 2nd, 2020 at 8:12:54 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Same story for me. When I play FUPGP I'll see a dealer ace-high pai gow around once (maybe twice) an hour. The only debate here at WOV has been do you like face up since you'll always play your hand correctly, or do you dislike it since it takes all the skill out of the game.

Nimadamus, if you don't mind, where do you play at?



Graton casino in Northern California and Grand Sierra Resort in Reno Nevada
Deucekies
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January 3rd, 2020 at 5:42:05 AM permalink
As a dealer, I've dealt myself ten Ace-highs in a half hour. I've also gone a week without a single Ace-high. Variance is a fickle thing.

If you really saw twenty Ace-highs in such a short span, why didn't you bet the Ace-high bonus? If the shuffler is rigged to give the dealer Ace-highs, it would follow that the Ace-high bonus would be player advantage.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
SOOPOO
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January 3rd, 2020 at 7:49:30 AM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

As a dealer, I've dealt myself ten Ace-highs in a half hour. I've also gone a week without a single Ace-high. Variance is a fickle thing.

If you really saw twenty Ace-highs in such a short span, why didn't you bet the Ace-high bonus? If the shuffler is rigged to give the dealer Ace-highs, it would follow that the Ace-high bonus would be player advantage.



"A week without an Ace high"???? As a dealer? How many hands do you think you dealt that week? 500? More?
Zcore13
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January 3rd, 2020 at 8:58:24 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

"A week without an Ace high"???? As a dealer? How many hands do you think you dealt that week? 500? More?



He's exaggerating. He didn't deal himself 10 Ace high's in 30 minutes either.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
SOOPOO
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January 3rd, 2020 at 9:00:47 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

He's exaggerating. He didn't deal himself 10 Ace high's in 30 minutes either.


ZCore13



I know both of those things. But his post does NOT seem to be sarcastic, rather, to me he is stating those events as fact. So I am probing for details....
GeoducknCrab
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January 3rd, 2020 at 10:10:56 AM permalink
The house edge in this game is 1.8% which I believe is less than standard Pia Gow Poker. The odds of an Ace High is about 9.29%. I like this game because is moves along faster than standard Pia Gow Poker. This may also be the reason that the house offers a game with a lower house edge.
Deucekies
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January 3rd, 2020 at 11:35:58 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

He's exaggerating. He didn't deal himself 10 Ace high's in 30 minutes either.


ZCore13



Remember Pai Gow is just one game I deal. I typically deal it twice a shift, so one hour a shift, four hours a week.

A whole week without an ace high may be an exaggeration. Maybe there was one or two in there.

I am not kidding about ten Ace-highs though. That did happen, and there were only two players playing no bonuses. That's why I was able to deal so fast. Every Ace-high was a chuck-it-in hand, so I was dealing like lightning. I probably got 30 hands out in 30 minutes.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Deucekies
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January 3rd, 2020 at 11:49:06 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

"A week without an Ace high"???? As a dealer? How many hands do you think you dealt that week? 500? More?



Probably 80-120, if that. As I told Zcore, Pai Gow is just one game in the rotation, so I only deal it once or twice a night for a half hour each time. It's not a big sample size.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
AxelWolf
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January 4th, 2020 at 7:38:58 AM permalink
Quote: Nimadamus

fast forward to recent years. Not only has regular pai gow seemingly gotten worse

Tell that to the guys(MD) who claim it's a positive cashflow game for themselves.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TigerWu
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January 4th, 2020 at 2:58:05 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

It's incredible the depths people will sink to to justify why they lost on a negative expectation game designed to make them lose.



He's not justifying WHY he lost, but rather HOW he lost. I don't see him claiming it's not a negative expectation game.
Wizard
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January 4th, 2020 at 3:57:05 PM permalink
House edge of pai gow poker, using house way and not banking = 2.72%
House edge of Face Up Pai Gow Poker = 1.81%
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
smoothgrh
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January 8th, 2020 at 12:34:28 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

House edge of pai gow poker, using house way and not banking = 2.72%
House edge of Face Up Pai Gow Poker = 1.81%



Huh. To hell with "for sentimental reasons!"
Jeff571966
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November 29th, 2023 at 7:52:13 AM permalink
Just discovered this game last nite at Harrah's AC and won about $1000 in 3 hours. Obviously knowing the dealers hand allows players to set that push when you might set it differently and lose in traditional pain gow. I know there was a lot of beginners luck involved but I think you could Martingale the hell out of this game by just setting pushes until you get a winning hand. I know Michael shudders when anyone uses the term Martingale on this site, lol. Going to Vegas in Jan., any info on which casinos offer this game???
SOOPOO
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November 29th, 2023 at 10:29:15 AM permalink
Quote: Jeff571966

Just discovered this game last nite at Harrah's AC and won about $1000 in 3 hours. Obviously knowing the dealers hand allows players to set that push when you might set it differently and lose in traditional pain gow. I know there was a lot of beginners luck involved but I think you could Martingale the hell out of this game by just setting pushes until you get a winning hand. I know Michael shudders when anyone uses the term Martingale on this site, lol. Going to Vegas in Jan., any info on which casinos offer this game???
link to original post



It seems to be at MOST of the casinos now…. I played it at both Paris and ParkMGM last month.

You can Martingale it just like any other slightly -EV game that has low variance, like pass line craps or baccarat. You’ll win a little until you lose it all. Don’t be fooled by your initial streak of good luck.
Jeff571966
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December 2nd, 2023 at 9:11:58 AM permalink
Very true but it's how I play, bought in for $2000, had 7 different sessions winning $200. Most I lost in a row was 4, also included in that loss of 4 were 2 hands I would have set differently in traditional pain gow and lost but got that push instead. I know the 7 or 8 loss run is coming, hopefully not until I take Harrah's for $4k(they charge for their pool even after I pay the "resort fee"), I'll show them lol.
SOOPOO
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December 2nd, 2023 at 11:10:27 AM permalink
Quote: Jeff571966

Very true but it's how I play, bought in for $2000, had 7 different sessions winning $200. Most I lost in a row was 4, also included in that loss of 4 were 2 hands I would have set differently in traditional pain gow and lost but got that push instead. I know the 7 or 8 loss run is coming, hopefully not until I take Harrah's for $4k(they charge for their pool even after I pay the "resort fee"), I'll show them lol.
link to original post



Good luck with the gambling!

I’m trying to wrap my head around this.
You are a hotel guest at Harrah’s.
You are paying a ‘resort fee’ while staying there.
You cannot use the pool without paying an extra fee.

How low can they go!?!?
DogHand
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December 2nd, 2023 at 11:17:27 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Jeff571966

Very true but it's how I play, bought in for $2000, had 7 different sessions winning $200. Most I lost in a row was 4, also included in that loss of 4 were 2 hands I would have set differently in traditional pain gow and lost but got that push instead. I know the 7 or 8 loss run is coming, hopefully not until I take Harrah's for $4k(they charge for their pool even after I pay the "resort fee"), I'll show them lol.
link to original post



Good luck with the gambling!

I’m trying to wrap my head around this.
You are a hotel guest at Harrah’s.
You are paying a ‘resort fee’ while staying there.
You cannot use the pool without paying an extra fee.

How low can they go!?!?
link to original post


In-room pay toilets?

Dog Hand

P.S. Doh! Now I've given them an idea >:(
Hunterhill
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December 3rd, 2023 at 1:59:33 AM permalink
Maybe they should charge extra for towels in the room and sheets and pillows, also extra if you want the sheets put on your bed
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Mission146
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December 3rd, 2023 at 6:45:46 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: Nimadamus

About 15 years ago, a buddy of mine showed me Pai Gow poker, and I also worked as a third party proposition player for one of those gaming corporations you see in the card rooms. I developed a liking for pai poker and that and blackjack were my games of choice. It used to be a decent game, and seemed pretty fair. Win some, lose some. I would bank often and sometimes it would work sometimes it wouldnt. Nothing really alarming.

Now, fast forward to recent years. Not only has regular pai gow seemingly gotten worse (the dealer getting better hands far too often) but Im sure you're aware that recently there has been a new variation called Face up Pai Gow. It is so utterly shameless that it is truly laughable. The dealer gets two pairs, or an ace high (which is a push) so astonishingly reegularly that it cant possibly be random. They will run off 20 Ace highs without ever getting a King or Queen High. I know Im not this unlucky. When they are not getting an Ace high or Pair-Pair they are getting A straight with an Ace, or a flush with a pair, Full house, etc. Maybe one out of every 10 times do they get a bad hand. EVERY TIME. I am not exaggerating and I am absolutely certain that this cant possibly be a coincidence. If you didnt know, when the dealer gets an Ace high that means every hand automatically pushes.

Believe me, I understand how this could possibly come across to a stranger online, Hell, if I read this I might laugh too. However I guarantee you would think the same if you had witnessed what I have. I have a buddy who is a big time gambler with years of experience and literally millions of dollars wagered, and he wholeheartedly agrees. True story.


I was wondering what others who have played this game thought. And no I am just an insanely unlucky person. I have had dozens of winning sessions at blackjacks and also pai gow, (regular pai gow, not the face up version).



Your perception of reality is off. Regular Pai Gow has not gotten worse. It's still the same. You also did not see 20 Ace high Psi Gows before any King or Queen high's. And if your friend thinks the same stuff as you, he's got a real problems gambling millions of dollars on rigged games.


ZCore13
link to original post



My question would be, "Why would the House want more pushes?" If the house was going to cheat, wouldn't they prefer to win? Granted, pushes that would otherwise be player wins help the house, but you'd think they'd just want to get the money faster and the player out of the casino.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 3rd, 2023 at 6:46:59 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Quote: SiegfriedRoy

I've logged in about 15 hours of face up pai gows (tables with varying number of players 1v1 to full). I've kept track of how many A-high pai gows I've had so far and it was 18 in the 15 hour session. Of the 18 A-high Pai Gows, I've had 3 that worked in my favor as I had a lower pai gows which resulted in me pushing rather than losing if I had played in a traditional PGP game. 15 hours is a small sample-size, but I can see the allure of this game to new players. I would have to agree with ZCore13.


Same story for me. When I play FUPGP I'll see a dealer ace-high pai gow around once (maybe twice) an hour. The only debate here at WOV has been do you like face up since you'll always play your hand correctly, or do you dislike it since it takes all the skill out of the game.

Nimadamus, if you don't mind, where do you play at?
link to original post



Dislike-A coin toss with slightly unfair payouts would at least have more flair. Regular PGP is a terrific game, imo.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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December 3rd, 2023 at 6:54:36 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: SOOPOO

"A week without an Ace high"???? As a dealer? How many hands do you think you dealt that week? 500? More?



He's exaggerating. He didn't deal himself 10 Ace high's in 30 minutes either.


ZCore13
link to original post



I think it could happen. How many hands per hour played? Would a hand a minute be roughly fair to suggest, especially with only one player at the table? Perhaps a little faster?

According to the WoO Page on Face-Up PGP, looking at the side bet, the dealer does NOT get an Ace High:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/face-up-pai-gow-poker/

.906400

Thus, the dealer DOES get an Ace High .093600, or roughly 9.36% of the time.

With this, we can create a binary and simply do it as a binomial distribution. We will say that there are thirty hands in a half hour and we want to see at least ten Ace Highs; I guess seeing more than that also wouldn't be a problem as seeing eleven supports seeing ten, etc...

I ran it here:

https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial

And, in thirty hands, it says this should happen with roughly .00027 (ten or more) probability.

With that, if you dealt out thirty such hands, then on any particular set of thirty you might see this happen 1/.00027 = 1 in 3,703.703703~

Therefore, my conclusion is that this is not ridiculously unlikely; otherwise, no video poker player has ever hit a Royal Flush, either.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Jeff571966
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December 4th, 2023 at 4:57:07 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: SOOPOO

"A week without an Ace high"???? As a dealer? How many hands do you think you dealt that week? 500? More?



He's exaggerating. He didn't deal himself 10 Ace high's in 30 minutes either.


ZCore13
link to original post



I think it could happen. How many hands per hour played? Would a hand a minute be roughly fair to suggest, especially with only one player at the table? Perhaps a little faster?

According to the WoO Page on Face-Up PGP, looking at the side bet, the dealer does NOT get an Ace High:

/games/face-up-pai-gow-poker/

.906400

Thus, the dealer DOES get an Ace High .093600, or roughly 9.36% of the time.

With this, we can create a binary and simply do it as a binomial distribution. We will say that there are thirty hands in a half hour and we want to see at least ten Ace Highs; I guess seeing more than that also wouldn't be a problem as seeing eleven supports seeing ten, etc...

I ran it here:

/online-calculator/binomial

And, in thirty hands, it says this should happen with roughly .00027 (ten or more) probability.

With that, if you dealt out thirty such hands, then on any particular set of thirty you might see this happen 1/.00027 = 1 in 3,703.703703~

Therefore, my conclusion is that this is not ridiculously unlikely; otherwise, no video poker player has ever hit a Royal Flush, either.
link to original post



Dealer did have a bunch of them one hour probably 7-8.
Mission146
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December 4th, 2023 at 6:09:45 AM permalink
7-8 in an hour wouldn't be unusual at all.

Assuming 60 HPH, I get about 17.4% to get at least eight in an hour.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
GeoducknCrab
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December 4th, 2023 at 9:05:05 AM permalink
Even if you're playing heads up against the dealer, 60 HPH is way too many to expect. This is a SLOW game to deal. The dealer must present all seven hands, discard the remaining four cards, then set their hand before the players set their hands. A very slow process.
15-20 hands per hour would be more accurate especially if the table has multiple players.
Mission146
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December 4th, 2023 at 9:12:18 AM permalink
Quote: GeoducknCrab

Even if you're playing heads up against the dealer, 60 HPH is way too many to expect. This is a SLOW game to deal. The dealer must present all seven hands, discard the remaining four cards, then set their hand before the players set their hands. A very slow process.
15-20 hands per hour would be more accurate especially if the table has multiple players.
link to original post



I find it very difficult to believe that it's as low as 20 HPH, unless the minimums are just extremely high.

ZCore would probably know; I suppose we should see if he (or anyone else inside) chimes in on HPH.

Earlier, you suggested that this game moves along, 'Faster than standard PGP,' and I know I definitely played faster than 20 HPH heads-up on PGP.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
gordonm888
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December 4th, 2023 at 9:55:01 AM permalink
I have played quite a bit of PGP and given that PGP tables typically have 5-6 players, my experience is <30 HPH. Other things that slow the game down are:

- payouts on 32% of hands where the dealer has to withhold a 5% commission
- time for evaluating a 7 card hand with decision-making by players as to how to arrange it. Newbies sometimes ask for help.
- sidebets, especially paying out sidebets for good hands, which can take plenty of time.
- general socializing, cheering and moaning
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
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