darkoz
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February 15th, 2019 at 9:56:38 PM permalink
Yep! Maryland state legislature never wrote any major statutes for table game crimes

Right now you can pinch, pastpost, cap, switch cards the whole shebang and only risk eviction

Better hurry though. MGM National Harbor is laboring for a new bill

https://www.usbets.com/maryland-casino-table-games-mgm-national-harbor/
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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February 16th, 2019 at 3:11:17 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Yep! Maryland state legislature never wrote any major statutes for table game crimes

Right now you can pinch, pastpost, cap, switch cards the whole shebang and only risk eviction

Better hurry though. MGM National Harbor is laboring for a new bill

https://www.usbets.com/maryland-casino-table-games-mgm-national-harbor/



bet capping
past posting
bet pinching
bet switching
card marking
dice sliding
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
lilredrooster
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February 16th, 2019 at 6:51:14 AM permalink
assuming you guys are serious - and I'm not sure if you are -

who are you planning to cheat other than casinos?

or do you want people to believe that you only cheat casinos?

some might have a problem believing that
Please don't feed the trolls
darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 7:41:46 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

assuming you guys are serious - and I'm not sure if you are -

who are you planning to cheat other than casinos?

or do you want people to believe that you only cheat casinos?

some might have a problem believing that



What we are stating is a matter of law. Read the article

And I wasn't suggesting anyone do it. I personally dont need to resort to cheat moves to make money at the casino. I do it without cheating.

And regardless of your own personal beliefs I would not hustle anyone but a casino. And most APs I am familiar with feel the same way
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kgb92
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February 16th, 2019 at 10:14:54 AM permalink
Lilredrooster: Do you think that a casino never cheats anybody?
TigerWu
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February 16th, 2019 at 10:24:03 AM permalink
Somebody get ZK in on this thread....
lilredrooster
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February 16th, 2019 at 10:43:46 AM permalink
Quote: kgb92

Lilredrooster: Do you think that a casino never cheats anybody?



No, but I wouldn't get back at them by cheating them.
I would file a complaint thru appropriate authorities
If I was not successful I would move on

the same is true if I was cheated by a car dealer on a used car
you don't come out the winner in every transaction you make in this world

the idea for me is to win more than you lose by a large margin - not to win every time
Please don't feed the trolls
darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 10:53:36 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

No, but I wouldn't get back at them by cheating them.
I would file a complaint thru appropriate authorities
If I was not successful I would move on

the same is true if I was cheated by a car dealer on a used car
you don't come out the winner in every transaction you make in this world

the idea for me is to win more than you lose by a large margin - not to win every time



I dont AP to get back at the casinos. Its just how I earn a living

In Maryland they have yet to criminalize cheat moves like dice sliding and marking cards. Until they do the casinos can only do the same as for card counters. Eviction!

I am not packing my suitcase for Maryland. Like I said I do moves that are never illegal in any jurisdiction I am aware of
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TomG
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February 16th, 2019 at 11:30:20 AM permalink
Quote:

but aside from potentially applying the law on the books related to theft generally,



Sounds like it would be considered illegal, with plenty of legal risk. Casinos simply want to make the punishments even greater than they already are.
RS
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February 16th, 2019 at 11:50:11 AM permalink
I’m not reading no article, sorry. But I reckon chances are if you are caught doing one of those “cheat / not-cheat” moves, you’re still gonna get arrested and go to jail/prison, as I’m sure it can fall under a multitude of illegal stuffs.
JohnnyQ
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February 16th, 2019 at 12:10:30 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

I would file a complaint thru appropriate authorities

Yep, I have.

Quote: lilredrooster


If I was not successful I would move on

Yep, I have.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
gamerfreak
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February 16th, 2019 at 12:37:44 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I’m not reading no article, sorry. But I reckon chances are if you are caught doing one of those “cheat / not-cheat” moves, you’re still gonna get arrested and go to jail/prison, as I’m sure it can fall under a multitude of illegal stuffs.


Considering arrests have been made in MD for legal card counting, if you try this BS “loophole” you are most certainly going to jail.
Last edited by: gamerfreak on Feb 16, 2019
JohnnyQ
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February 16th, 2019 at 12:41:52 PM permalink
Oh, MOST definitely !
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:23:17 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Considering arrests have been made in MD for legal card counting, if you try this BS “loophole” you are most certainly going to jail.



I guess you didnt follow up on the arrests for legal card counting in Maryland

The person got a six figure lawsuit settlement

https://bj21.com/category/patron-abuse/pages/maryland-police-officers-settle-with-falsely-imprisoned-card-counter

Based on the current status of the law an arrest for something that is not legal amounts to false arrest

Law is reactive not proactive You can only be arrested for something that is already illegal on the books. Not for something someone thinks should be illegal
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gamerfreak
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:29:39 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I guess you didnt follow up on the arrests for legal card counting in Maryland

The person got a six figure lawsuit settlement

https://bj21.com/category/patron-abuse/pages/maryland-police-officers-settle-with-falsely-imprisoned-card-counter

Based on the current status of the law an arrest for something that is not legal amounts to false arrest

Law is reactive not proactive You can only be arrested for something that is already illegal on the books. Not for something someone thinks should be illegal


I followed them closely.

My point is that you are 100% going to get arrested, charged, and maybe or maybe not convicted under a theft statute.

No amount of money you could make pinching bets or sliding dice is going to make it worth going through the wringer of the criminal justice system.
JohnnyQ
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:31:27 PM permalink
Oh, most definitely !
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:46:06 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Oh, most definitely !



Why I am I hearing echoes?
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darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:47:50 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

I followed them closely.

My point is that you are 100% going to get arrested, charged, and maybe or maybe not convicted under a theft statute.

No amount of money you could make pinching bets or sliding dice is going to make it worth going through the wringer of the criminal justice system.



Well like I said its not my cup of tea

So far the article says the casinos have only been trespassing those caught. Something tells me its not as easy as you think to prosecute

Until they update the laws at least
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darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:53:19 PM permalink
According to the article MGM National Harbor caught 172 people cheating in 2017 and only evicted them from the property.

Precisely why they want the laws against cheating enacted
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JohnnyQ
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February 16th, 2019 at 1:54:32 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Precisely why they want the laws against cheating enacted

Which makes PERFECT SENSE.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
darkoz
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February 16th, 2019 at 2:10:16 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Which makes PERFECT SENSE.



Agreed!

Im not advocating cheat moves

Only pointing out the seriousness of Marylands lack of laws such that cheating currently does not lead to prosecution

I am certain they will fix it soon
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darkoz
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March 6th, 2019 at 8:20:19 AM permalink
UPDATE:

MGM did not want to hand over how much their cheating losses were at National Harbor which has hurt their chances of criminalizing cheat moves in Maryland

The Aria in Vegas had 6 cheats caught compared to 153 at National Harbor the same time period

The Aria 6 faced jail time. None of the National Harbor 153 did.

A roulette team using non-denom chips scam got barred in Maryland (all they could do) while getting 2 years in prison somewhere else

Here is the update link https://www.usbets.com/mgm-national-harbor-casino-cheating-legislation/
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rdw4potus
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March 6th, 2019 at 9:51:43 AM permalink
There is no requirement that the state passes a new law. There is no requirement that the state list, in ridiculous detail, the nature in which crimes are committed in order for those things to be crimes. Fraud is fraud. Theft is theft...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
darkoz
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March 6th, 2019 at 10:12:21 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

There is no requirement that the state passes a new law. There is no requirement that the state list, in ridiculous detail, the nature in which crimes are committed in order for those things to be crimes. Fraud is fraud. Theft is theft...



Thank Heaven thats not true

Many casinos consider card counting theft. And promo hunting fraud. And using your spouses promos theft and fraud.

We would be having a lot of prosecutions for fraud and theft if it was not specifically spelled out and delineated.

There are simply too many thing people "see" as theft that are not for the law to be ambiguous about it

The problem ib Maryland is they are not delineating the illegality of cheat moves established as crimes elsewhere

Another problem with the "theft is theft" argument is for example "prostitution is prostitution" okay thats true but prostitution is legal in some areas. Just because its a crime to do something in your neck of the woods does not make it a crime everywhere
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rdw4potus
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March 6th, 2019 at 10:20:32 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Thank God thats not true

Many casinos consider card counting theft. And promo hunting theft. And using your spouses promos theft

We would be having a lot of prosecutions for fraud and theft if it was not specifically spelled out and delineated.

There are simply too many thing people "see" as theft that are not for the law to be ambiguous about it

The problem ib Maryland is they are not delineating the illegality of cheat moves established as crimes elsewhere

Another problem with the "theft is theft" argument is for example "prostitution is prostitution" okay thats true but prostitution is legal in some areas. Just because its a crime to do something in your neck of the woods does not make it a crime everywhere



In your interpretation of Maryland's current statutes on fraud and theft, past posting and bet capping are not just obviously crimes? Really? There needs to be additional regulation before it's clear that adding a fake bet in order to receive unearned funds is illegal?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
darkoz
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March 6th, 2019 at 10:23:00 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

In your interpretation of Maryland's current statutes on fraud and theft, past posting and bet capping are not just obviously crimes? Really? There needs to be additional regulation before it's clear that adding a fake bet in order to receive unearned funds is illegal?



That is not my interpretation

Thats the way it is

Or are you suggesting the articles being written about it in the Maryland press are just interpretations of my own? Are you suggesting I am writing all the articles about it in the newspapers?
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darkoz
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March 6th, 2019 at 10:29:53 AM permalink
If you believe bet capping is a crime without having to specify it in statute form then the next question is...

Once caught what is the penalty?

Bet capping ... 20 years to life?

Marking cards ... 6 months suspended sentence?

Baccarat scam resulting in millions lost treated same as $50 bet cap crime?

The reason you must delineate everything under statute form even for crimes that should be obvious is because circumstances and even intent dictate penalties. Judges must be given guidelines or you will see murderers serve 5 years and bet cappers serving 20 years.

Even with murder intent (first degree intentional or 3rd degree crime of passion) must be delineated in statute form.

The law is anal for a reason. Maryland isnt being anal enough is the problem here
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rdw4potus
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March 6th, 2019 at 11:15:28 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

If you believe bet capping is a crime without having to specify it in statute form then the next question is...

Once caught what is the penalty?

Bet capping ... 20 years to life?

Marking cards ... 6 months suspended sentence?

Baccarat scam resulting in millions lost treated same as $50 bet cap crime?

The reason you must delineate everything under statute form even for crimes that should be obvious is because circumstances and even intent dictate penalties. Judges must be given guidelines or you will see murderers serve 5 years and bet cappers serving 20 years.

Even with murder intent (first degree intentional or 3rd degree crime of passion) must be delineated in statute form.

The law is anal for a reason. Maryland isnt being anal enough is the problem here



You think there aren't existing sentencing guidelines under existing theft and fraud statues? There are... And, the article you posted even says that the state’s casinos can apply the law on the books related to theft generally. So it's a totally-unsafe not-at-all-good idea to pretend that these things are currently legal. Bet capping and past posting have clearly identifiable monetary values that can be used to mete out punishment under existing statutes and guidelines. I guess the state could make those things felonies where the values might make them misdemeanors now; but, again, that doesn't make them legal activities now.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
darkoz
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March 6th, 2019 at 12:08:46 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

You think there aren't existing sentencing guidelines under existing theft and fraud statues? There are... And, the article you posted even says that the state’s casinos can apply the law on the books related to theft generally. So it's a totally-unsafe not-at-all-good idea to pretend that these things are currently legal. Bet capping and past posting have clearly identifiable monetary values that can be used to mete out punishment under existing statutes and guidelines. I guess the state could make those things felonies where the values might make them misdemeanors now; but, again, that doesn't make them legal activities now.



Casinos dont apply laws.

So you seem to feel the articles are lying and a waste of time

The meetings of the legislature are a waste of time

The MGM representative is wasting his time

Its all settled. Everyone is just wasting their time
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rdw4potus
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March 6th, 2019 at 12:12:30 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Casinos dont apply laws.

So you seem to feel the articles are lying and a waste of time

The meetings of the legislature are a waste of time

The MGM representative is wasting his time

Its all settled. Everyone is just wasting their time



What are you even talking about? Casinos definitely don't apply laws. Neither do homeowners. That doesn't mean I don't have legal recourse if you rob my home...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
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