Face Up Pai Gow Poker @ NYNY
As a dealer, getting used to setting my hand first it took a little l stare off into space for a few and ill get a "can we see your hand yet??"
One thing that is odd is nobody plays the Aces Up bonus..When i dealt EZ Pai Gow in St. Louis, a lot of people had the $5 Queen Pai gow bet up. Maybe the screen that showed the last instance of queen high Pai Gow has more people playing it.
I didn't know it was at Sunset Station as well, will definitely play it.
Quote: GlenGIm a dealer at NYNY. I have dealt that game 3 times now. I enjoy it, all my players enjoy it. Takes some time getting used to the methods..Some players have the normal Pai Gow mindset and sometimes will have to remind them or hopefully catch it.
As a dealer, getting used to setting my hand first it took a little l stare off into space for a few and ill get a "can we see your hand yet??"
One thing that is odd is nobody plays the Aces Up bonus..When i dealt EZ Pai Gow in St. Louis, a lot of people had the $5 Queen Pai gow bet up. Maybe the screen that showed the last instance of queen high Pai Gow has more people playing it.
I didn't know it was at Sunset Station as well, will definitely play it.
IIRC the EZ Pai Gow had the meter showing how long it had been since a Fortune Hand and a Q high, which entice people to bet those side-bets. This game, AFAIK, does not have that. At Thunder Valley, I would say about 1/3rd of the players play the Aces. The other thing is that Thunder Valley also has the fortune progressive bet too, so you kind of have to split up your side-betting too many ways.
Quote: boymimboIIRC the EZ Pai Gow had the meter showing how long it had been since a Fortune Hand and a Q high, which entice people to bet those side-bets. This game, AFAIK, does not have that. At Thunder Valley, I would say about 1/3rd of the players play the Aces. The other thing is that Thunder Valley also has the fortune progressive bet too, so you kind of have to split up your side-betting too many ways.
Yes EZ paigow did. Here, we do not have any screen or a progressive for Face-Up Pai Gow
Quote: GlenGIm a dealer at NYNY. I have dealt that game 3 times now. I enjoy it, all my players enjoy it. Takes some time getting used to the methods..Some players have the normal Pai Gow mindset and sometimes will have to remind them or hopefully catch it.
As a dealer, getting used to setting my hand first it took a little l stare off into space for a few and ill get a "can we see your hand yet??"
One thing that is odd is nobody plays the Aces Up bonus..When i dealt EZ Pai Gow in St. Louis, a lot of people had the $5 Queen Pai gow bet up. Maybe the screen that showed the last instance of queen high Pai Gow has more people playing it.
I didn't know it was at Sunset Station as well, will definitely play it.
Welcome to the forum. I gamble at NYNY a lot when I'm in Vegas (specifically Pai Gow). I'll be there next weekend. If I see ya, I'll say hi. Assuming your avatar is you.
Quote: ams288Welcome to the forum. I gamble at NYNY a lot when I'm in Vegas (specifically Pai Gow). I'll be there next weekend. If I see ya, I'll say hi. Assuming your avatar is you.
His name is likely Glen! (you could look for a name tag).
Quote: boymimboHis name is likely Glen! (you could look for a name tag).
He's actually a gangsta from the Scottish Highlands.
Quote: boymimboHis name is likely Glen! (you could look for a name tag).
Likely. Not guaranteed lol. The nametags are small..So I'll look for someone overconcentrating haha
I did see some people doing silly things. Lots of folks set "no brainer" hands without waiting for the dealer to flip their cards and set them. One guy set KKJ83/QQ & the dealer had AA652/98. Dude didn't even try to win the hand. Just mailed in his high pairs. Another person played through a flush and set A*Q73/22 and got beat by 76543/88. For my own part, I saved a hand by setting 1010105544 as 554410/1010 against a dealer's 99xxx/88.
I talked to one of the dealers who I used to play with quite a bit. he said things are going well so far. hands/hr are up. there's no need to calculate commission anymore. The A-high side bet has increased tip drop.
Quote: rdw4potusJust played this game at Canterbury Park in MN where it went in about 2 weeks ago. I'm a big fan. No two pair rule to remember, no real strategy to worry about at all. If you can set your hand to beat the dealer, do it. If you can't win, set to push. If you can't even push, muck so we can all get to the next hand faster. In my short sample size (about 150 minutes) the A-high push didn't outweigh the value of the added info available to the player and I doubled my buy in.
I did see some people doing silly things. Lots of folks set "no brainer" hands without waiting for the dealer to flip their cards and set them. One guy set KKJ83/QQ & the dealer had AA652/98. Dude didn't even try to win the hand. Just mailed in his high pairs. Another person played through a flush and set A*Q73/22 and got beat by 76543/88. For my own part, I saved a hand by setting 1010105544 as 554410/1010 against a dealer's 99xxx/88.
I talked to one of the dealers who I used to play with quite a bit. he said things are going well so far. hands/hr are up. there's no need to calculate commission anymore. The A-high side bet has increased tip drop.
It is a ZERO thinking game! If you cannot figure out the best way to set your hand AFTER the dealer has set his you have NO business setting foot in a casino, even as a ploppy. Not saying it might not be fun, but at the same level as baccarat, casino war, or some other ZERO thinking game.
Quote: SOOPOOIt is a ZERO thinking game! If you cannot figure out the best way to set your hand AFTER the dealer has set his you have NO business setting foot in a casino, even as a ploppy. Not saying it might not be fun, but at the same level as baccarat, casino war, or some other ZERO thinking game.
You'd be surprised how bad people are at it...
I still can't get over the lady who wouldn't split her pair of aces over the dealer's King-high pai gow.
Quote: ams288You'd be surprised how bad people are at it...
I still can't get over the lady who wouldn't split her pair of aces over the dealer's King-high pai gow.
I believe it. I call her a 'chandelier' player. Someone has to lose enough money so the casino's can buy those expensive chandeliers....
Quote: SOOPOOIt is a ZERO thinking game! If you cannot figure out the best way to set your hand AFTER the dealer has set his you have NO business setting foot in a casino, even as a ploppy. Not saying it might not be fun, but at the same level as baccarat, casino war, or some other ZERO thinking game.
Absolutely.
Sometimes ill mess with the players...I had a pair of 8s with QJ up..Player had 3 pair JJ-KK-99...I told him to put KJ up, and so he did lol
speaking of casino war....i was on there few weeks ago. Group of 20somethings show up..going to sit down one says "ive played this before so i need to sit third base" i burst out laughing.
Quote: JohnzimboI have friends who LOVE Pai Gow and they played it this past weekend at NYNY and really liked it.
I might have been their dealer, i was on it Superbowl sunday
Quote: GlenGI might have been their dealer, i was on it Superbowl sunday
Were you at Ameristar before?
Quote: FinsRuleWere you at Ameristar before?
Yeah
Cocktail service was also excellent. She kept the White Russians coming and they started calling me "The Dude."
I'm glad to see it's spreading, as I really do enjoy this version a lot. Even though it just kicked my ass at NYNY...
Quote: ams288Luxor now has one table of Face Up PGP as well.
I'm glad to see it's spreading, as I really do enjoy this version a lot. Even though it just kicked my ass at NYNY...
It's fun. Dealt it the other day. Had a great time
Quote: GlenGNYNY replaced their fortune paigow with a 2nd face up table.
That's too bad. I learned to play pai gow poker at NYNY back in '99 or so. I do still want to try face up, though.
Quote: jmillsThat's too bad. I learned to play pai gow poker at NYNY back in '99 or so. I do still want to try face up, though.
The first time I played pai gow in Vegas was at NYNY. Hit a straight flush in first 30 minutes there. Had $0 on bonus.
Quote: GlenGNYNY replaced their fortune paigow with a 2nd face up table.
Well, nuts. I was going to play it next week.
Edit. Brain backwash. Make that, oh, goodie! Maybe I do get to try it.
Quote: 777I thought that it is exceeding difficult to get a patent for new card game post Alice/Bliski era. Apparently this Face Up PGP had received a patent. I don't see patent number referenced in the WoO's write-up for this game. Does anyone know the patent number for this Face Up PGP?
It doesn't have a patent.
Is it similar to "regular" pai gow poker, less, more?
Quote: MrGoldenSunWhat are the table minimums y'all are seeing for this?
Is it similar to "regular" pai gow poker, less, more?
$10 min at NYNY.
$10 mins at Luxor and Park MGM during slow times, $15 during busier times.
Apparently Mandalay Bay now has a table of Face Up with their standard $25 min.
I'll be back in Vegas next week and will check out the other MGM properties to see if any more have gotten it yet.
My guess would be to double with 3 of a kind and AQ or better. Maybe 2 pair with KK-JJ or better.
$10 minimum can be found at a lot of the casinos. Call ahead to check on the availability at any specific property.
Table minimums have been high this weekend. $25 most of the time at Park MGM and NYNY.
Quote: ams288MGM Grand has a table now. The only MGM properties that don’t have this are Bellagio, Aria, and Excalibur (no Pai Gow Poker there at all anymore).
Table minimums have been high this weekend. $25 most of the time at Park MGM and NYNY.
When I stayed at the Park MGM last month, I wanted to play but the min was too high for me
Gambling is essentially a fancied up version of the following: I hand you $10 and you hand me back $9.47 (or whatever the HE it is for that game). If that were the entirety of the transaction, no one would ever agree to play that "game". So to get people interested, you have to dress up that transaction with a lot of bells and whistles. Some of the bells and whistles are that in any given hand, you may receive $20 or $50 or $0, but the average return is $9.47. And some of the bells and whistles are in the game itself. This format reduces the enjoyment of the game itself, making it closer to the "I hand you $10 and you give me back $9.47".
Quote: TinManI haven't read the whole thread, but this format takes half of the suspense out of PGP. With regular PGP, there's suspense in looking at your own cards and then suspense in the dealer revealing his/her cards.
I had the same opinion, but I tried it at Palace Station a couple of weeks ago. The suspense is reversed. You look at the dealers cards, and then you slowly fan out your cards. It starts with, "Can I push?", and hopefully morphs into "Can I win?" Of course, if the dealer has ace high it takes the fun out of it, except for looking for a bonus.
Quote: jmillsI had the same opinion, but I tried it at Palace Station a couple of weeks ago. The suspense is reversed. You look at the dealers cards, and then you slowly fan out your cards. It starts with, "Can I push?", and hopefully morphs into "Can I win?" Of course, if the dealer has ace high it takes the fun out of it, except for looking for a bonus.
I agree. And/but, I'd rather know I push and look for that bonus than get a monster hand in regular PGP and think it was good only to see that the dealer had a queen high or a tiger 9 or whatever commission-free mechanism is used in the regular pai gow poker table.
Either way, these optimal House Way strategies are based on the player setting their hand first. In the face-up version, because the player sees the dealer hand first, I want to believe there are a number of situations that change outcomes, namely many of the two pair scenarios in which, by seeing the dealer's hand first the two pair can be set to change from a loss to a push and/or a push to a win. Also, there are some scenarios, albeit rare, but where one pair hands beat a King-high or worse, e.g. "Aces with J-9 on top" or playing a full-house behind vs. the dealer's straight or flush where the player's low hand also beats the dealer's hand.
In these examples, the strategy largely deviates from house way. Because of these deviations, which I am not sure how they could be factored in, I want to believe that the HA might be even less than the maker's advertised 1.60%.
Does anyone have a way to show this mathematically?
Quote: sam7595Either way, these optimal House Way strategies are based on the player setting their hand first. In the face-up version, because the player sees the dealer hand first, I want to believe there are a number of situations that change outcomes, namely many of the two pair scenarios in which, by seeing the dealer's hand first the two pair can be set to change from a loss to a push and/or a push to a win. Also, there are some scenarios, albeit rare, but where one pair hands beat a King-high or worse, e.g. "Aces with J-9 on top" or playing a full-house behind vs. the dealer's straight or flush where the player's low hand also beats the dealer's hand.
In these examples, the strategy largely deviates from house way. Because of these deviations, which I am not sure how they could be factored in, I want to believe that the HA might be even less than the maker's advertised 1.60%.
I have studied PGP for years. My thoughts are that significant changes in strategy would be:
- Two pair hands, as you have said. Changes may occur most frequently in hands with at least one low pair.
- Player is dealt a pair of aces+ 5 singletons very frequently (>5%, as I remember, because of the joker). Given that you can see the dealers hand, you will sometimes split the aces up.
- 3oaK hands like KKK and QQQ will often be played differently against a face-up dealer.
- Also, hands with a straight + entangled pair, or a 5-card flush + an entangled pair (which, combined, occur like 3% of the time) may also be played differently on occasion.
- a subtle effect: in standard PGP, dealer hands with an Ace-high Pai Gow are the source of many top (2-card) hands that are Kx and Qx -particularly KQ, KJ, QJ, QT. Now that the dealer discards A-Hi Pai Gow hands, player 2-card hands in the range Qx-KT will win more often and all Ax hands, and in particular weak AX hands like A2-A8, will win less often.
Quote: sam7595anyone have a way to show this mathematically?
PGP is a 14 card game: 7 cards each in player's and dealer's hands, so its very hard/time-consuming to do rigorous calculations. It might be possible to do a very elaborate analysis based on establishing probabilities for top/bottom combinations for 7 card hands arranged the House-Way from a fresh deck and then analyzing player hands against those probability ranges.
For example, whenever the dealer has a low straight on the bottom then he has a top hand that is skewed towards high cards (or pairs); i.e., an 87654 straight on the bottom will never have an 87 on the top (because dealer would have played it as a 2 pair hand) - thus the fact that "low straights on the bottom" are somewhat correlated with "2 medium/high cards on the top" may mean that you will be splitting 2 pair hands more often than you might otherwise think.
OR, "one pair + 5 singleton" hands have a high (unpaired) top hand with a relatively higher frequency, so keeping 2 pair together on the bottom against a dealer's one-pair hand is less likely than you might think to result in a player win because the dealer's top hand will often be Ax or Kx.
It is interesting that a QQ-xxxxx hand wins more money than an AA-xxxxx hand -because the QQ-xxxxx hand often has an A-high or K-high in the top hand whereas the AA-xxxxx has a stronger bottom hand (AA) but, on average has a weaker top hand (never an A-High). So these are the things that would be nice to take into account.
I am guessing Face Up must be more popular to replace the older game in the course of two years. I was staying at the Mirage where I could reliably find $15 PGP on visits over the last several years. The Face Up tables were $25 minimum even at the slowest times and they were busy. Higher limits, faster play, and no banking are all things the casino likes.
Quote: jml24I am guessing Face Up must be more popular to replace the older game in the course of two years. I was staying at the Mirage where I could reliably find $15 PGP on visits over the last several years. The Face Up tables were $25 minimum even at the slowest times and they were busy. Higher limits, faster play, and no banking are all things the casino likes.
Yeah, all the MGM properties seem to have gone to $25 minimums for Face Up 24/7 now. Kind of sad. No more low rolling for free drinks at NYNY/Luxor.
Harrah’s/Linq/Flamingo have it for $10 up till around noon then it goes to $15.
Last time I walked through Paris they didn’t have Face Up yet, this picture confirms that they now do.
Quote: ams288Someone hit the $2.3 million progressive at Paris.
Last time I walked through Paris they didn’t have Face Up yet, this picture confirms that they now do.
When did it hit??
I was playing PG the last two days before heading home because of the level it was at.
May favorite part about the hand is that they have the Aces on top with the Ace/Joker for icing on the cake (as if that extra $15 make any difference lol). Nuts!
Of course he wasn’t betting the fortune bonus at the time. (He had been betting it off and on). He was slightly less than suicidal.
