Ultimate in New Zealand
Without thinking too much into it, to me, it seems this rule variation would make it quite a bit harder to make certain hands, like flush/straight/full-house. It also seems like you may be more aggressive.
I think a complaint to NZ gaming would be in order. But that's just me, perhaps, because it would cut both ways. You might even have an advantage with that kind of stupidity.
with three Community Cards to make the best five-cards Poker hand that they can." So, you would seem to be right. Very un-poker like.
I'll have to make some modifications to my program to see how that effects things. It will definitely be bad for the player. More Antes pushing and it will much harder to win anything on the blind.
Can you confirm if the Blind pay table is the same? The rule booklet doesn't say.
This would most certainly hurt the player unless the blind pay table was modified. So if the board is H-H-H-H-D (4 hearts one diamond) and you have Ah-2c, you don't have a flush then? It would absolutely destroy the players chances of making straights/flushes/etc.
Quote: WizardI never heard of this rule in Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em either. According to SkyCity's rule book for Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em, " Both the Dealer and all players must use both their Hole Cards together
with three Community Cards to make the best five-cards Poker hand that they can." So, you would seem to be right. Very un-poker like.
I'll have to make some modifications to my program to see how that effects things. It will definitely be bad for the player. More Antes pushing and it will much harder to win anything on the blind.
Can you confirm if the Blind pay table is the same? The rule booklet doesn't say.
A previous thread has a link to the Dealing Procedures and lists various trips pay tables, but the Blind looks the same.
Quote: mipletDealing Procedures and lists various trips pay tables, but the Blind looks the same.
This would seem to confirm that rule.
Quote: rule 9.7For all remaining players, the Dealer will turn over his / her two cards. Each player and the Dealer’s two cards will be combined with three of the Community Cards to make the best five-card poker hand.
Quote: HunterhillSeems like dealer will not qualify as often.
Probably true as to flushes and straights. Which would, itself, raise the HE considerably. Definitely the blind bets on those hands and especially full houses should pay more.
But those rules would significantly affect optimal strategy as well. 4 to a straight or (especially) flush on the board would mean very little when both hole cards must fit; the dealer would have to luck box into many more hands. Kickers normally evaluated after flop or river might be auto 4x bets, such as any king or queen. You would definitely fold different hands, I think probably many more than you would change to a 1x stay.
I'm going to SWAG the HE between 7-8%, and the EOR around 3%. Yuck.
If they have the 'exact' same pay table as a regular UTH game, I'm going to figure the HE is at about or over 10%. Player flushes/straights will be slimmed down, a lot, as well as the dealer not qualifying a lot more often to push the Ante bet more.Quote: beachbumbabs...I'm going to SWAG the HE between 7-8%, and the EOR around 3%. Yuck.
Either way... you still said it correctly... yuck.
It seems like you would want the dealer to qualify less often with a straight, flush, etc. So wouldn't that be in your favor -- at least in the aspect of dealer qualifying? Of course the blind not paying as often would hurt you.
But I don't think the HE will be as high as y'all say, assuming you're using an appropriate strategy.
Quote: RSDealer is still going to qualify just as often with a pair.
It seems like you would want the dealer to qualify less often with a straight, flush, etc. So wouldn't that be in your favor -- at least in the aspect of dealer qualifying? Of course the blind not paying as often would hurt you.
But I don't think the HE will be as high as y'all say, assuming you're using an appropriate strategy.
What about pairs on board?
Board 44K 7 2
Dealer: 95
US rules: Ante doesn't push
NZ rules: Ante pushes
This is a big rule change for the house. The rule change from the blind payout of the Royal Flush alone adds 0.77% of an Ante to the house edge as you will be awarded the 500 to 1 payout half as often because you need both hole cards to make the Royal.
I expect it to be well over 10% of an Ante.
| Hand | Combinations | Probability |
|---|---|---|
| Royal flush | 43240 | 0.000015 |
| Straight flush | 379224 | 0.000135 |
| Four of a kind | 4047264 | 0.001441 |
| Full house | 35914320 | 0.012783 |
| Flush | 41883800 | 0.014908 |
| Straight | 79953072 | 0.028458 |
| Three of a kind | 174387528 | 0.062071 |
| Two pair | 578732040 | 0.205993 |
| One pair | 1357655832 | 0.483242 |
| Trash | 536479440 | 0.190954 |
| Total | 2809475760 | 1.000000 |
Can anyone confirm or deny?
Quote: tringlomaneWhat about pairs on board?
Board 44K 7 2
Dealer: 95
US rules: Ante doesn't push
NZ rules: Ante pushes
This is a big rule change for the house. The rule change from the blind payout of the Royal Flush alone adds 0.77% of an Ante to the house edge as you will be awarded the 500 to 1 payout half as often because you need both hole cards to make the Royal.
I expect it to be well over 10% of an Ante.
Why wouldn't the pair on board qualify,dealer would still be using both his cards?
Quote: tringlomaneWhat about pairs on board?
Board 44K 7 2
Dealer: 95
US rules: Ante doesn't push
NZ rules: Ante pushes
This is a big rule change for the house. The rule change from the blind payout of the Royal Flush alone adds 0.77% of an Ante to the house edge as you will be awarded the 500 to 1 payout half as often because you need both hole cards to make the Royal.
I expect it to be well over 10% of an Ante.
Dealer would play 9,5,4,4,K
Quote: RSDealer would play 9,5,4,4,K
I'm missing tring's point. Dealer has a pair. Ante doesn't push.
Oh, he's thinking rank only for k9754. It would be as above. They wouldn't break a pair just for rank. But the 7 wouldn't play because of the 2 hole card rule.
Quote: beachbumbabsYuck.
Yes, This is a very bad 2-card Casino-Omaha game, not a Hold'em game.
| Hand | U.S. | N.Z. |
|---|---|---|
| 2,3o | -0.925837 | -1.017078 |
| 2,4o | -0.872560 | -0.973933 |
| 2,5o | -0.823324 | -0.933122 |
| 2,6o | -0.861363 | -0.985668 |
| 2,7o | -0.882806 | -1.055275 |
| 2,8o | -0.820061 | -1.003291 |
| 2,9o | -0.758211 | -0.942350 |
| 2,To | -0.659454 | -0.864982 |
| 2,Jo | -0.567216 | -0.765810 |
| 2,Qo | -0.452218 | -0.638971 |
| 2,Ko | -0.311296 | -0.479811 |
| 2,Ao | 0.041730 | -0.193383 |
| Average | -0.657718 | -0.821140 |
So for these hands, the house expected return, per Ante bet, is 16.34% higher.
In case you're wondering, the large raise strategy is so far the same, make the large raise on A/2 off-suit but none of the other hands.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm missing tring's point. Dealer has a pair. Ante doesn't push.
Oh, he's thinking rank only for k9754. It would be as above. They wouldn't break a pair just for rank. But the 7 wouldn't play because of the 2 hole card rule.
You're missing my point because I was wrong. Whoops. But even being wrong, my >10% Ante prediction sounds like it's still going to be true.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI can see the $h!t hitting the fan the first time the board reads K♦️ Q♦️6♠️ J♦️ A♦️ and a player holding 10♦️ 4♣️ loses to 6♥️ 2♠️
Probably has happened several times already.
And in poker circles, Hold 'em where you're forced to use both hole cards is apparently called "Greek Hold 'em" or "Tight Hold 'em" (Lol). I bet the casino doesn't call this "Ultimate Greek Hold 'Em"...
Thanks for the data thus far, Mike!Quote: Wizard...So for these hands, the house expected return, per Ante bet, is 16.34% higher.
In case you're wondering, the large raise strategy is so far the same, make the large raise on A/2 off-suit but none of the other hands.
I would assume the betting strategy would be largely the same... Most of the basic strategy in the game is to bet big cards or bet once you have pairs. I don't see that changing almost at all simply because it's a bit more rare that you would bet a straight or flush draw (which you might only need 1 card for previously). i.e. most of the betting revolves around having something of value already.
Ouch, the ante is 16.34% higher? lol and I'm sure we're on the same page that we thought the BLIND was going to be the big kick in the nads!
Quote: tringlomaneYou're missing my point because I was wrong. Whoops. But even being wrong, my >10% Ante prediction sounds like it's still going to be true.
Probably has happened several times already.
And in poker circles, Hold 'em where you're forced to use both hole cards is apparently called "Greek Hold 'em" or "Tight Hold 'em" (Lol). I bet the casino doesn't call this "Ultimate Greek Hold 'Em"...
Sucker Holdem!
| Statistic | NZ | US |
|---|---|---|
| Win per Ante | -0.079670 | -0.021850 |
| Average units per bet | 4.187692 | 4.152252 |
| Element of risk | 0.019025 | 0.005262 |
So, not as bad as I thought it would be.
There are only two strategy changes on the big raise. The player should make every raise under the US rules plus 9/J off-suit and a pair of deuces.
Quote: WizardOkay, my program is done. I'll work on a full analysis but here is the executive summary, comparing the New Zealand rule to the U.S.
Statistic NZ US Win per Ante -0.079670 -0.021850 Average units per bet 4.187692 4.152252 Element of risk 0.019025 0.005262
So, not as bad as I thought it would be.
There are only two strategy changes on the big raise. The player should make every raise under the US rules plus 9/J off-suit and a pair of deuces.
Ooh. I get closest to the pin! I said HE 7-8%, and it's 7.9670. What do I win?
Quote: beachbumbabsOoh. I get closest to the pin! I said HE 7-8%, and it's 7.9670. What do I win?
A beanie hat with propeller.
Quote: WizardA beanie hat with propeller.
Sweet! Thanks!
Quote: beachbumbabsGood article. I think it explains well what the differences are and how it affects people. I especially appreciated the strategy change calculation.
Thank you!
Quote: WizardSome technical issues have been resolved so I'm proud to offer a preview on my page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em -- Auckland Variant. Please have look. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
Nice article.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesNice article.
Thank you.
Quote: WizardSome technical issues have been resolved so I'm proud to offer a preview on my page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em -- Auckland Variant. Please have look. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
Everything from the Trips Bet section and bellow probably should be removed. Actually the Trips Bet section should be updated to show the higher house edge.
Quote: mipletEverything from the Trips Bet section and bellow probably should be removed. Actually the Trips Bet section should be updated to show the higher house edge.
Thanks. I thought I did that already but evidently forgot to save the changes. Just went through and did it again.
Looks like the updates to the Trips bet didn’t save as they still have the best 5 of 7 cards instead of requiring the player to use both of their hole cards.Quote: WizardThanks. I thought I did that already but evidently forgot to save the changes. Just went through and did it again.
Quote: mipletLooks like the updates to the Trips bet didn’t save as they still have the best 5 of 7 cards instead of requiring the player to use both of their hole cards.
Thank you. I don't know how I missed that.
