Commish
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December 3rd, 2017 at 11:16:16 PM permalink
Went to play Ultimate at the Sky City casino in Auckland. I was playing alone. My very first hand a straight appears on the board. The dealer takes my chips. I say hold on, there was a straight on the board. The dealer informs me she must play her 2 cards, which included a ace, and I must play mine. The straight was 10 high. I protested and the supervisor showed me in writing that was there rules. I played this for 8 years all over the world and have never heard that. If 4 of a kind was on the board no one would have quads because. They have to play their 2 cards.
RogerKint
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December 3rd, 2017 at 11:28:17 PM permalink
You are playing your two cards, they're the worst of the 7. Both of youz have a 10-high straight which is the highest 5-card poker hand. She probably can't think straight from living upside-down and toilets swirling the other way n such.
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Deucekies
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December 4th, 2017 at 1:18:15 AM permalink
So in their version, you must play your two cards, and exactly three cards from the board? That's like Omaha, but with only two cards.
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RS
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December 4th, 2017 at 3:08:03 AM permalink
You are referring to Ultimate Texas Hold'Em, right? Were there other rule changes, like payouts on the blind? Does dealer still need a pair to qualify?

Without thinking too much into it, to me, it seems this rule variation would make it quite a bit harder to make certain hands, like flush/straight/full-house. It also seems like you may be more aggressive.
beachbumbabs
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December 4th, 2017 at 4:00:37 AM permalink
That's totally screwed up. You don't each have 2 cards: you each have 7 cards. 5 of them are the same cards. But yous still each make your best 5 card poker hand from those 7 cards.

I think a complaint to NZ gaming would be in order. But that's just me, perhaps, because it would cut both ways. You might even have an advantage with that kind of stupidity.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
rdw4potus
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December 4th, 2017 at 5:41:14 AM permalink
Is the game branded as ultimate Texas holdem? If so, I'd think a deviation this large would be interesting to the distributor.
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December 4th, 2017 at 6:42:24 AM permalink
I never heard of this rule in Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em either. According to SkyCity's rule book for Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em, " Both the Dealer and all players must use both their Hole Cards together
with three Community Cards to make the best five-cards Poker hand that they can." So, you would seem to be right. Very un-poker like.

I'll have to make some modifications to my program to see how that effects things. It will definitely be bad for the player. More Antes pushing and it will much harder to win anything on the blind.

Can you confirm if the Blind pay table is the same? The rule booklet doesn't say.
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Romes
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December 4th, 2017 at 7:45:19 AM permalink
As Deucekies pointed out, my first thought was this was exactly like omaha... Where the player MUST use 2 cards from their hand (thought typically in omaha you get 4 cards, but I digress).

This would most certainly hurt the player unless the blind pay table was modified. So if the board is H-H-H-H-D (4 hearts one diamond) and you have Ah-2c, you don't have a flush then? It would absolutely destroy the players chances of making straights/flushes/etc.
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miplet
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December 4th, 2017 at 8:05:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I never heard of this rule in Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em either. According to SkyCity's rule book for Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em, " Both the Dealer and all players must use both their Hole Cards together
with three Community Cards to make the best five-cards Poker hand that they can." So, you would seem to be right. Very un-poker like.

I'll have to make some modifications to my program to see how that effects things. It will definitely be bad for the player. More Antes pushing and it will much harder to win anything on the blind.

Can you confirm if the Blind pay table is the same? The rule booklet doesn't say.


A previous thread has a link to the Dealing Procedures and lists various trips pay tables, but the Blind looks the same.
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December 4th, 2017 at 9:35:25 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

Dealing Procedures and lists various trips pay tables, but the Blind looks the same.



This would seem to confirm that rule.

Quote: rule 9.7

For all remaining players, the Dealer will turn over his / her two cards. Each player and the Dealer’s two cards will be combined with three of the Community Cards to make the best five-card poker hand.

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Hunterhill
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December 4th, 2017 at 10:15:40 AM permalink
Seems like dealer will not qualify as often.
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Ibeatyouraces
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December 4th, 2017 at 10:44:33 AM permalink
I wonder how this game would be received in live Texas Holdem poker where you MUST play the 2 dealt hole cards and 3 of the 5 community cards.
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beachbumbabs
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December 4th, 2017 at 11:07:44 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Seems like dealer will not qualify as often.



Probably true as to flushes and straights. Which would, itself, raise the HE considerably. Definitely the blind bets on those hands and especially full houses should pay more.

But those rules would significantly affect optimal strategy as well. 4 to a straight or (especially) flush on the board would mean very little when both hole cards must fit; the dealer would have to luck box into many more hands. Kickers normally evaluated after flop or river might be auto 4x bets, such as any king or queen. You would definitely fold different hands, I think probably many more than you would change to a 1x stay.

I'm going to SWAG the HE between 7-8%, and the EOR around 3%. Yuck.
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Romes
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December 4th, 2017 at 12:22:33 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

...I'm going to SWAG the HE between 7-8%, and the EOR around 3%. Yuck.

If they have the 'exact' same pay table as a regular UTH game, I'm going to figure the HE is at about or over 10%. Player flushes/straights will be slimmed down, a lot, as well as the dealer not qualifying a lot more often to push the Ante bet more.

Either way... you still said it correctly... yuck.
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December 4th, 2017 at 4:42:41 PM permalink
I've made changes to my Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em program for the New Zealand rules. It takes about a week of computer time to cycle through all the combinations. So please be patient on my results.
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RS
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December 4th, 2017 at 6:56:44 PM permalink
Dealer is still going to qualify just as often with a pair.

It seems like you would want the dealer to qualify less often with a straight, flush, etc. So wouldn't that be in your favor -- at least in the aspect of dealer qualifying? Of course the blind not paying as often would hurt you.

But I don't think the HE will be as high as y'all say, assuming you're using an appropriate strategy.
tringlomane
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December 4th, 2017 at 7:26:11 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Dealer is still going to qualify just as often with a pair.

It seems like you would want the dealer to qualify less often with a straight, flush, etc. So wouldn't that be in your favor -- at least in the aspect of dealer qualifying? Of course the blind not paying as often would hurt you.

But I don't think the HE will be as high as y'all say, assuming you're using an appropriate strategy.



What about pairs on board?

Board 44K 7 2

Dealer: 95

US rules: Ante doesn't push
NZ rules: Ante pushes


This is a big rule change for the house. The rule change from the blind payout of the Royal Flush alone adds 0.77% of an Ante to the house edge as you will be awarded the 500 to 1 payout half as often because you need both hole cards to make the Royal.

I expect it to be well over 10% of an Ante.
Last edited by: tringlomane on Dec 5, 2017
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December 4th, 2017 at 7:27:33 PM permalink
Here are my combinations in this game, where the player must use both of his hole cards and any three of five community cards.

Hand Combinations Probability
Royal flush 43240 0.000015
Straight flush 379224 0.000135
Four of a kind 4047264 0.001441
Full house 35914320 0.012783
Flush 41883800 0.014908
Straight 79953072 0.028458
Three of a kind 174387528 0.062071
Two pair 578732040 0.205993
One pair 1357655832 0.483242
Trash 536479440 0.190954
Total 2809475760 1.000000


Can anyone confirm or deny?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Hunterhill
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December 4th, 2017 at 7:36:58 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

What about pairs on board?

Board 44K 7 2

Dealer: 95

US rules: Ante doesn't push
NZ rules: Ante pushes

This is a big rule change for the house. The rule change from the blind payout of the Royal Flush alone adds 0.77% of an Ante to the house edge as you will be awarded the 500 to 1 payout half as often because you need both hole cards to make the Royal.

I expect it to be well over 10% of an Ante.


Why wouldn't the pair on board qualify,dealer would still be using both his cards?
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RS
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December 4th, 2017 at 7:46:31 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

What about pairs on board?

Board 44K 7 2

Dealer: 95

US rules: Ante doesn't push
NZ rules: Ante pushes

This is a big rule change for the house. The rule change from the blind payout of the Royal Flush alone adds 0.77% of an Ante to the house edge as you will be awarded the 500 to 1 payout half as often because you need both hole cards to make the Royal.

I expect it to be well over 10% of an Ante.



Dealer would play 9,5,4,4,K
beachbumbabs
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December 4th, 2017 at 7:50:23 PM permalink
Quote: RS

Dealer would play 9,5,4,4,K



I'm missing tring's point. Dealer has a pair. Ante doesn't push.

Oh, he's thinking rank only for k9754. It would be as above. They wouldn't break a pair just for rank. But the 7 wouldn't play because of the 2 hole card rule.
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Ibeatyouraces
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December 4th, 2017 at 9:06:42 PM permalink
I can see the $h!t hitting the fan the first time the board reads K♦️ Q♦️6♠️ J♦️ A♦️ and a player holding 10♦️ 4♣️ loses to 6♥️ 2♠️
Last edited by: Ibeatyouraces on Dec 4, 2017
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Commish
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December 4th, 2017 at 9:16:17 PM permalink
The blind table was exactly the same. It is my understanding that it is copyrighted and cannot be changed. The HE has to be huge. When there are 2 pair on the board you cannot play the second pair so it is more rare than normal to get paid on the blind. You are no longer playing the best five cards out of seven when you have to play both your cards. In eight years of playing this game I have 61 straight flushes. Much more than 50% of them I have only used one card from my hand. Tens of thousands of dollars would be lost just on those hands.
MrCasinoGames
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December 4th, 2017 at 10:15:18 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Yuck.



Yes, This is a very bad 2-card Casino-Omaha game, not a Hold'em game.
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December 5th, 2017 at 6:53:32 AM permalink
As mentioned, it takes my computer about an hour to loop through all the combinations for each starting hand. I did the first 12 of them overnight, every off-suit hand with a deuce low. Here are the expected values of each one for both the U.S. and N.Z. rules.

Hand U.S. N.Z.
2,3o -0.925837 -1.017078
2,4o -0.872560 -0.973933
2,5o -0.823324 -0.933122
2,6o -0.861363 -0.985668
2,7o -0.882806 -1.055275
2,8o -0.820061 -1.003291
2,9o -0.758211 -0.942350
2,To -0.659454 -0.864982
2,Jo -0.567216 -0.765810
2,Qo -0.452218 -0.638971
2,Ko -0.311296 -0.479811
2,Ao 0.041730 -0.193383
Average -0.657718 -0.821140


So for these hands, the house expected return, per Ante bet, is 16.34% higher.

In case you're wondering, the large raise strategy is so far the same, make the large raise on A/2 off-suit but none of the other hands.
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tringlomane
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December 5th, 2017 at 7:13:10 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm missing tring's point. Dealer has a pair. Ante doesn't push.

Oh, he's thinking rank only for k9754. It would be as above. They wouldn't break a pair just for rank. But the 7 wouldn't play because of the 2 hole card rule.



You're missing my point because I was wrong. Whoops. But even being wrong, my >10% Ante prediction sounds like it's still going to be true.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I can see the $h!t hitting the fan the first time the board reads K♦️ Q♦️6♠️ J♦️ A♦️ and a player holding 10♦️ 4♣️ loses to 6♥️ 2♠️



Probably has happened several times already.

And in poker circles, Hold 'em where you're forced to use both hole cards is apparently called "Greek Hold 'em" or "Tight Hold 'em" (Lol). I bet the casino doesn't call this "Ultimate Greek Hold 'Em"...
Romes
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December 5th, 2017 at 7:40:18 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

...So for these hands, the house expected return, per Ante bet, is 16.34% higher.

In case you're wondering, the large raise strategy is so far the same, make the large raise on A/2 off-suit but none of the other hands.

Thanks for the data thus far, Mike!

I would assume the betting strategy would be largely the same... Most of the basic strategy in the game is to bet big cards or bet once you have pairs. I don't see that changing almost at all simply because it's a bit more rare that you would bet a straight or flush draw (which you might only need 1 card for previously). i.e. most of the betting revolves around having something of value already.

Ouch, the ante is 16.34% higher? lol and I'm sure we're on the same page that we thought the BLIND was going to be the big kick in the nads!
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
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December 5th, 2017 at 7:47:53 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

You're missing my point because I was wrong. Whoops. But even being wrong, my >10% Ante prediction sounds like it's still going to be true.



Probably has happened several times already.

And in poker circles, Hold 'em where you're forced to use both hole cards is apparently called "Greek Hold 'em" or "Tight Hold 'em" (Lol). I bet the casino doesn't call this "Ultimate Greek Hold 'Em"...


Sucker Holdem!
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December 5th, 2017 at 10:10:02 AM permalink
I forgot about the joys of multi-core processing. I divided up the rest of the 169 starting hands into three groups and have one group running on each of three cores. Estimated completion time in 48 hours, or about 10 AM Thursday.
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December 7th, 2017 at 11:36:11 AM permalink
Okay, my program is done. I'll work on a full analysis but here is the executive summary, comparing the New Zealand rule to the U.S.

Statistic NZ US
Win per Ante -0.079670 -0.021850
Average units per bet 4.187692 4.152252
Element of risk 0.019025 0.005262


So, not as bad as I thought it would be.

There are only two strategy changes on the big raise. The player should make every raise under the US rules plus 9/J off-suit and a pair of deuces.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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December 7th, 2017 at 1:00:04 PM permalink
Thanks Wiz. I do not plan on a trip back to New Zealand anytime soon but if I ever run into that rule again I will know that me decision to walk away is correct.
beachbumbabs
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December 7th, 2017 at 1:34:15 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, my program is done. I'll work on a full analysis but here is the executive summary, comparing the New Zealand rule to the U.S.

Statistic NZ US
Win per Ante -0.079670 -0.021850
Average units per bet 4.187692 4.152252
Element of risk 0.019025 0.005262


So, not as bad as I thought it would be.

There are only two strategy changes on the big raise. The player should make every raise under the US rules plus 9/J off-suit and a pair of deuces.



Ooh. I get closest to the pin! I said HE 7-8%, and it's 7.9670. What do I win?
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December 7th, 2017 at 2:23:32 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Ooh. I get closest to the pin! I said HE 7-8%, and it's 7.9670. What do I win?



A beanie hat with propeller.

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beachbumbabs
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December 7th, 2017 at 2:24:55 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

A beanie hat with propeller.



Sweet! Thanks!
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December 11th, 2017 at 11:50:27 AM permalink
Some technical issues have been resolved so I'm proud to offer a preview on my page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em -- Auckland Variant. Please have look. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
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December 11th, 2017 at 12:14:23 PM permalink
Good article. I think it explains well what the differences are and how it affects people. I especially appreciated the strategy change calculation.
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December 11th, 2017 at 3:29:29 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Good article. I think it explains well what the differences are and how it affects people. I especially appreciated the strategy change calculation.



Thank you!
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MrCasinoGames
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December 12th, 2017 at 2:10:16 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Some technical issues have been resolved so I'm proud to offer a preview on my page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em -- Auckland Variant. Please have look. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.


Nice article.
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December 12th, 2017 at 6:39:32 AM permalink
Quote: MrCasinoGames

Nice article.



Thank you.
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miplet
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December 12th, 2017 at 8:21:31 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Some technical issues have been resolved so I'm proud to offer a preview on my page on Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em -- Auckland Variant. Please have look. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.


Everything from the Trips Bet section and bellow probably should be removed. Actually the Trips Bet section should be updated to show the higher house edge.
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December 12th, 2017 at 8:33:39 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

Everything from the Trips Bet section and bellow probably should be removed. Actually the Trips Bet section should be updated to show the higher house edge.



Thanks. I thought I did that already but evidently forgot to save the changes. Just went through and did it again.
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miplet
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December 12th, 2017 at 2:41:24 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks. I thought I did that already but evidently forgot to save the changes. Just went through and did it again.

Looks like the updates to the Trips bet didn’t save as they still have the best 5 of 7 cards instead of requiring the player to use both of their hole cards.
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December 12th, 2017 at 5:23:35 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

Looks like the updates to the Trips bet didn’t save as they still have the best 5 of 7 cards instead of requiring the player to use both of their hole cards.



Thank you. I don't know how I missed that.
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December 12th, 2017 at 7:00:25 PM permalink
Wow. A 31% loser. Can there be a worse bet?
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