AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 22nd, 2016 at 7:10:21 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: basicbrad

2) Accounting aside, the "status quo ante" theory the court relies on by definition: "returns the parties to past, restoring the parties to the position they held before the voided contract was entered into." So what of Ivey's $388,200 in NET CRAPS LOSSES? If you're making the argument that Ivey's craps play was directly attributable to his ill-gotten Baccarat gains, then restoring the parties to their pre-contractual state would rewind whatever happened with his Craps play, win or lose. IOW, *regardless* of what Borgata's accounting was in #1 above, the court simply CAN'T draw a direct nexus between his Baccarat wins and his craps play and still apply a strict "status quo ante" remedy. If you want to hit the rewind button, go ahead, but that means rewinding everything REGARDLESS of outcome.

As I mentioned before, I'd need to see the accounting, but I disagree that they're not potentially tied together. If the Borgata could (and did) present evidence that some of Ivey's craps play was directly attributable to the poisoned Baccarat winnings, but other of Ivey's craps play was not, then they are properly separated. There was nothing voidable about Ivey playing craps with his own money so status quo ante doesn't apply there. I would assume that the accounting by Borgata represented that Ivey lost $892,200 at craps with his own money and, separately, won $504,000 with the ill-gotten edge sorting money, but I'd need to examine the source documents in order to know that. As I mentioned before, it's very easy for casinos to fudge such numbers, and when seven figures are involved, there's every incentive to do so. But remember that he apparently took four trips. If he played craps before baccarat on some of the trips, and craps after baccarat on others, that's might be an easy way to distinguish things.

Does anyone know how the crapsplay went down? Was it before after during? Fid he use the funds he won to play craps? That's a hard one when it comes to gambling.

Had he lost on craps then what?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
teliot
teliot
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December 22nd, 2016 at 7:15:26 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Had he lost on craps then what?

Ivey confessed to me that he was a big loss-rebate craps advantage player, a-la Don Johnson. No doubt he had a great deal worked out with The Borgata.
Visit my YouTube Channel: @AdvancedAdvantagePlay
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 22nd, 2016 at 11:26:00 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Ivey confessed to me that he was a big loss-rebate craps advantage player, a-la Don Johnson. No doubt he had a great deal worked out with The Borgata.

Makes sense to me.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
WatchMeWin
WatchMeWin
Joined: May 20, 2011
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December 23rd, 2016 at 7:01:13 AM permalink
Phil Ivey made millions sponsoring Full Tilt poker.
Phil Ivey used those millions to gamble poker and craps without any fear of losing because he had a money stream from FT.
Phil Ivey won millions in poker (craps is unknown).
Government shut down Full Tilt deemed it illegal.
Should government go after Phil Ivey for his other wins while using full tilt money?
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
KingoftheEye
KingoftheEye
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December 23rd, 2016 at 9:41:14 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

My article on the topic was just posted:

https://www.888casino.com/blog/edge-sorting-future/



I was a bit surprised by this article. I was expecting you to take a more defensive approach for Ivey.

I'm also of the opinion it's advantage play, and the courts were wrong. I'm still happy to have the precedence, if needed, in my jurisdiction to stop it here if any of our 86's get challenged. From my experience with these groups, I think Ivey's involvement was heavily overstated. He was just the name / money to get the special conditions.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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Thanks for this post from:
LuckyPhow
December 23rd, 2016 at 11:26:53 AM permalink
Quote: KingoftheEye

From my experience with these groups, I think Ivey's involvement was heavily overstated. He was just the name / money to get the special conditions.

Its the fault of the casino for granting or even entertaining the requested conditions.

The staged fight between two well-endowed young ladies results in entertainment for the players and certainly results in enhanced entertainment if either of the participants is some notorious starlet but the dealers should be trained to have the exact same response: keep your eyes on the chip tray, not the diversion.

Its the casino who trains and tests dealers and if some casino employee granted permission for the fight, its the casino's responsibility all the way. If the fight is spontaneous and authentic, the dealers are still supposed to respond by staring at the chip tray.

I'd put the burden on the casino and not allow some judge to sit as a super arbiter who can peer into the minds of the parties and say there is some sort of 'contract' on the player's behalf to abide by zillions of arcane regulations promulgated by the Gaming Board but utterly unknown to the player. The Game was altered by the actions of the casino in allowing an absurd deviation from procedures and from common sense and from common business practices.

The casino can't get a second bite of the apple down at the court house; they took their bite on the gaming floor and come into court crying "nuances".
KingoftheEye
KingoftheEye
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December 24th, 2016 at 1:44:57 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Its the fault of the casino for granting or even entertaining the requested conditions.



I don't believe I said the casinos involved weren't at least partially to blame.

I won't debate who is most liable for advantage play in this forum. It's like debating religion, no chance of either side winning. I just keep kicking AP's out of my casino, and they keep trying new things. I call that job security. These edge-sorting copycats coming out are particularly pathetic. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, except even easier, more like the fish are jumping out of the water onto the grill and saying, "Please eat me". Makes me look good though, so keep it coming.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 24th, 2016 at 2:40:35 PM permalink
Quote: KingoftheEye

I don't believe I said the casinos involved weren't at least partially to blame.

I won't debate who is most liable for advantage play in this forum. It's like debating religion, no chance of either side winning. I just keep kicking AP's out of my casino, and they keep trying new things. I call that job security. These edge-sorting copycats coming out are particularly pathetic. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, except even easier, more like the fish are jumping out of the water onto the grill and saying, "Please eat me". Makes me look good though, so keep it coming.

It'd been a while since you posted.

You came in at a really bad time (I think you know what I'm talking about)

I think there's a few guys that would really like to talk to you on the down low.

Anyways, I can say that I would like to see more posts from you.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
KingoftheEye
KingoftheEye
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December 24th, 2016 at 3:27:11 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

It'd been a while since you posted.

You came in at a really bad time (I think you know what I'm talking about)

I think there's a few guys that would really like to talk to you on the down low.

Anyways, I can say that I would like to see more posts from you.



I only post when there is some issue that comes up that I know something about and want to input. Probably hurts that I only come on here from home every once in a while. I won't post from the office, although I will read the board from there anonymously.

I'm not opposed to down low chatting. I'm no slouch, but I'm certainly not on the level of Don or Eliot and I won't compromise my own house.
teliot
teliot
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December 24th, 2016 at 3:33:28 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Anyways, I can say that I would like to see more posts from you.

Yes!
Visit my YouTube Channel: @AdvancedAdvantagePlay

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