Craps: how did they come up with place bets?

My friends and I have been debating this for years and can't agree on an answer. Where did they come up with the payoffs for place bets on craps (7:6 for 6/8, 7:5 for 5/9, 9:5 for 4/10)? I've heard that they based it off of $1 with 4x odds (but then it would be 5x for the 6/8?). Anybody know? I'm also wondering if that was one of the original bets when the game was invented or if it was introduced later.

I have also found it interesting to examine.

I always thought that most of the bets in general use the fair bet as a guide, then are modified in the easiest way, with an unnecessary greedy jump to high HE often evident. The place 6/8 bet, fair at 6:5 seems to have stumped them, so they just went to the awkward 7:6 and somehow no one pointed out the low HE I guess [?]. Somehow 1:1 did not get elected.

The easy to examine 35:1 fair odds on boxcars and snake-eyes being modified to 34:1 , was instantly rejected as clearly too player-favorable and changed to 30:1 without further ado, you have to figure.

In the case of the "any 7" bet, a fair bet at 5:1 changing to 4:1 ironically makes it the worst bet of all, making a bad night for the house due to hedging this way quite unlikely.

I'd have to agree with the other reply. My guess always was that the odds on place bets evolved as dealers who were "math smart" but not "math geniuses" developed a bet that had all of the following: a house edge, seemed like a good deal to the players, and were fairly easy to pay out quickly. As I think on it, I can imagine a street-craps dealer offering the new bet, knowing 9:5 is better for himn than 10:5 and also being able to sell it.

To your later question, the bets were definately developed later. Craps started as a pass-line only affair from anything I ever read. All the other bets came about as proprietors saw how long that took to grind out a win and gave the players something to doing during the "boring" non-decision rolls.

All guesses, but logical ones.

Thats right. Craps was originally more a street game than a gaming parlor game. The various bets later developed as competitive measures between gaming parlors. I've not cared too much for the history of craps or for variations on the game, since I have enough trouble with Bank Craps as it exists in today's casinos. Scarne on dice discusses the history and has a few reprints of early craps layouts. Much of the early action was between players with the owner of the game only taking a modest amount.

A Place bet is nothing more than a Put bet with a pre-dertmined value.

The thing is, because Place bets often equal or exceed the odds limits of a Put bet, while also reducing the minimum bet, the Put bet has been forgotten.

for $5 place on 4, 10, 5, and 9. a $6 place for 6 and 8.

4 and 10 place. $1 flat, $4 odds. $1 + $4(2/1) = $9

5 and 9 place. $1 flat, $4 odds. $1 + $4(3/2) = $7

6 and 8 place. $1 flat, $5 odds. $1 + $5(6/5) = $7

for a slightly better game, you could do a $21 place on the 4 and 10 pays $40, a $21 place on the 5 and 9 pays $30, a $21 place on the 6 and 8 pays $25.

EV for various bets.

(1/3)(40) - (2/3)(21) = -.6667
(2/5)(30) - (3/5)(21) = -.6000
(5/11)(25) - (6/11)(21) = -.0909

HA for various bets.

-(-.6667/21) = 3.17%
-(-.6000/21) = 2.68%
-(-.0909/21) = .43%

The true odds are $5 pays $6, $4 pays $6, and $5 pays $10. They simply altered the game for the house advantage by tweaking the place bets so that $7 pays $6, $5 pays $7 and $5 pays $9.

or u could do, $12 pays $22 on 4 and 10, $12 pays $17 on 5 and 9, $12 pays $14 on 6 and 8.

HE for various bets:

4 and 10: 5.56%
5 and 9: 3.33%
6 and 8: 1.52%

or u could do, $11 pays $21 on 4 and 10, $11 pays $16 on 5 and 9, $12 pays $14 on 6 and 8.

4 and 10: 3.03%
5 and 9: 1.82%
6 and 8: 1.52%

i kindof like the last one the best. $1 flat with 10x odds on the 4,5,9, and 10. $1 flat with 5x odds on the 6 and 8. it makes placing the 4,5,9, and T not quite as bad and every place bet still holds a higher HE than the passline bet.

theres really no reason why a casino needs to do this though but if youre banking your own game those are some suggestions. basically in a location where a casino is an hour away but your game is right in town. if the casino is any farther away, then u dont need to really change anything to attract players. if its any less time away then players dont need to risk playing an underground game when they can just drive to the casino. not to say you should start banking illegal games but given those particular dynamics, i could see changing payouts on place bets.

Quote: Pasta

Where did they come up with the payoffs for place bets on craps (7:6 for 6/8, 7:5 for 5/9, 9:5 for 4/10)?
I'm also wondering if that was one of the original bets when the game was invented or if it was introduced later.

The History of the Place Bet
(My source:edit0001

In the UK, a place on the 4 or 10 pays at minimum odds of 9.5 to 5

You also get better hardway pay offs.

Not that there are many dice table in Blighty.

Quote: thecesspit

In the UK, a place on the 4 or 10 pays at minimum odds of 9.5 to 5

You also get better hardway pay offs.

Not that there are many dice table in Blighty.

I was looking for my Bad Company LP "Straight Shooter" I cant find it.

Pics on the net show the front cover and especially the back cover payouts.
Hard 6&8: 9 1/2 to 1
Hard 4&10: 7 1/2 to 1
2,12: 33 to 1
3,11: 16 to 1

at https://wizardofodds.com/craps
The Wizard lists Prop Bets for different payouts

Quote: 7craps

The History of the Place Bet
The payouts paid exactly like a come bet with odds... thus the birth of the place bet.
5 pays 9 on the 4 & 10. (1 with 4 times odds = 1 + (4*2) = 9.)
5 pays 7 on the 5 & 9. (1 with 4 times odds = 1 + (4*1.5) = 7.)
6 pays 7 on the 6 & 8. (1 with 5 times odds = 1 + (5*1.2) = 7.)

This makes a lot of sense to me. Since this game was invented at a time when possibly as much as 1/3 of the population was illiterate (in early 19th century France), and certainly percentiles were not commonly studied.

The hard ways bets clearly show the little bit of a bamboozle. It is easy enough to count the probabilities of hard ways as 10-1 or 8-1 without higher mathematics. The subsitution of the English word "10 for 1" , and "8 for 1" instead of "10 to 1" and "8 to 1" obscures the high house advantage. Many modern day craps tables no longer use this older way of expressing the odds.

In a similar way the true odds of "6 to 5", " 6 to 4" and "2 to 1" would be easy enough for an illiterate person to calculate. He is essentially making a "come bet" and assuming that he is bypassing the "coming out roll" (hence the 1:1 payout on the first coin). The "free odds" is either 4 times the bet, or 5 times on the 6&8 to make the payout in even units.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

A Place bet is nothing more than a Put bet with a pre-dertmined value.

The thing is, because Place bets often equal or exceed the odds limits of a Put bet, while also reducing the minimum bet, the Put bet has been forgotten.

I've always understood that, but does that mean that the put bet (with odds) predated the Place bet? I thought Free Odds were a more recent development than the Place bet. If they weren't, it doesn't seem to reason that the casino would have Put bets (which you cannot remove the flat wager portion), and then change them to a Place Bet that you could remove. We'd also have to find out where the Come bet fits into this timeline.

I could be wrong, but I assume that the reason you can't remove the flat part of a put bet, is because there was no position on the table for the bet, therefore, once made, it's impossible to tell the difference between a put and a come.

Place bets introduced a new position on the table which allowed the entire bet to be removed at any time.

Quote: cclub79

I thought Free Odds were a more recent development than the Place bet.

I don't think so, as the best explanation for having them at all that I've gotten is that side bets at fair odds were an integral part of the game from the get-go, and the casinos didnt want private side bets going on. It makes sense, why on earth otherwise would there ever have been a fair bet offered by the house?