UTH Trips Bet
I'd be interested to hear opinions on whether you ever play Trips and why/why not, and if you do, how you bet Trips amount vs. Ante/Blind?
Quote: JohnnyCometI'd be interested to hear opinions on whether you ever play Trips and why/why not, and if you do, how you bet Trips amount vs. Ante/Blind?
$0 on the Trips, because like all side bets, it is a sucker bet.
Quote: Wizard$0 on the Trips, because like all side bets, it is a sucker bet.
I suppose I asked for that, didn't I, :)
I do like it on the rare (yes) chance I'm feeling the Trips and hit something juicy. But that's just what the side bets are made for I suppose.
Quote: Wizard$0 on the Trips, because like all side bets, it is a sucker bet.
But if you find the 3/4/7/9 payscale (which has become admittedly hard to find these days), it's only a 0.9% house edge. That's still higher than the 0.526% element of risk, but lower than the 2.185% house edge per ante. Is that bet mathematically defensible?
Quote: Wizard$0 on the Trips, because like all side bets, it is a sucker bet.
I present the argument that ANY bet offered by the casino that has any sort of a house edge is a sucker bet.
I also say that in order to offer the bet, - any bet - that it must have a house edge.
With this in mind, then any bet that offers fun, action, or juice gives the player back something, something that he was seeking.
In this regard, anytime I made a windfall on UTH was because I had the trips bet up on a big hand. In fact, if I did not have the trips bet in action on a fine hand, I would have had a bad gambling experience.
Quote: PaigowdanWith this in mind, then any bet that offers fun, action, or juice gives the player back something, something that he was seeking.
I can only lead a horse to water.
Quote: DeucekiesBut if you find the 3/4/7/9 payscale (which has become admittedly hard to find these days), it's only a 0.9% house edge. That's still higher than the 0.526% element of risk, but lower than the 2.185% house edge per ante. Is that bet mathematically defensible?
MGM Detroit has it.
Quote: DeucekiesBut if you find the 3/4/7/9 payscale (which has become admittedly hard to find these days), it's only a 0.9% house edge. That's still higher than the 0.526% element of risk, but lower than the 2.185% house edge per ante. Is that bet mathematically defensible?
Absolutely. Most people bet the same amount on the trips bet as the ante, so they would be losing less playing the trips bet than the main game. Same with the 8/6/5 paytable (1.9%). I think SLS has 8/6/5, fwiw, as well as my local, Hollywood St. Louis.
I think Mike calling this a sucker bet is pretty harsh. Even the most common paytable has a 3.5% HA and most "side bets" are significantly worse than that.
in UTH the variance is very high already, quite enough for me. So that is reason #1 not to play the Trips bet.
reason #2 is that I think it is possible the HE goes to about zero with many of the dealers, if your own play is close to perfect. In particular they can't see their own straights sometimes [some dealers]. I don't have any qualms about allowing the mistake to go by because the way I originally played poker with friends was with a rule you had to call your own hand correctly to win, and this falls in line with that. So it makes a challenge to make sure you're hand is played right, including looking for your own harder-to-see straights, fun for me. If you get a good dealer you can relax a bit for a break.
My point being, if there is any possibility you are in +EV territory, you don't want to increase the variance with a side bet
Hopefully people who play table games can find a game with a weak dealer or something and bet the side bets for cover .
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm a sucker. I love the trips bet. I either bet 5 or 10 on it, depending on how the table's running. Yes, more gambler's fallacy. I consider it my entertainment dollar well spent.
Mods should be prohibited from playing side bets 👀🔍💯
Quote: AxelWolfThe best reason to stay away from side bets is because Dan wants you to play them.
Hopefully people who play table games can find a game with a weak dealer or something and bet the side bets for cover .
+1.
Actually, I couldn't care less what people choose to play or not play. It's that if you play, play what gives you juice, as that's the reason for the action. But if you get your juice not from the play of the cards, but from whatever maneuver you can pull off on someone, well then, you didn't come to gamble.
Wink.
Quote: rudeboyoiIt's really only the royal I'd care about not having a bonus on but that's covered by the blind bet so the trips bet seems pointless to me.
Well, one big difference is, to get the blind paid, you have to beat the dealer, but the trips pays regardless. So board hands ger paid even if you fold (except motor city, someone reported ). Another is the blind pay scale is a lot lower than trips on the lower hands. Of course, it's the most fun when both pay.
Quote: beachbumbabsWell, one big difference is, to get the blind paid, you have to beat the dealer, but the trips pays regardless. So board hands ger paid even if you fold (except motor city, someone reported ). Another is the blind pay scale is a lot lower than trips on the lower hands. Of course, it's the most fun when both pay.
Correct about Motorcity. To get paid on the Trips bet, you must make a Play bet. You do not have to beat the dealer though.
"Yep, more variance, more cost, and more fun"
It is more fun for sure but it can be a killer when on a losing streak.
Quote: odiousgambitthe way I originally played poker with friends was with a rule you had to call your own hand correctly to win, and this falls in line with that.
I'm not inclined to point out dealer errors either, but just in case you don't know, this is not the way most serious poker games work, including in the casino. Cards speak.
Like regular poker, every poker player remembers their bad beats. You remember more 4x losses than wins because they hurt more than a 4x win feels good. Your 4x hands are usually a hand you have a healthy advantage on, i.e. A-K vs 2 random dealer cards.Quote: JohnnyCometNo doubt the UTH Trips bet is a "bad" bet in terms of odds. However whenever I skip Trips and play the best strategy I can, my "good" 4X hands often get demolished over and over again. At least with Trips I often catch something to keep me in the game or (much) better. I don't play for long sessions generally so if I hit a nice set I walk away. I try to find the 1.9 HE trips table but it's pretty scarce nowadays.
I'd be interested to hear opinions on whether you ever play Trips and why/why not, and if you do, how you bet Trips amount vs. Ante/Blind?
The trips bet is like any other side bet, a novelty that if you enjoy and you're playing for fun, you should play when your "gut" tells you to. Otherwise, don't play it. You have this fallacy already that "I usually hit something to keep me in" but if you were really hitting trips that often then your base hands would win more often too. It's not common for the dealer to put trips on the board (or better) maybe a few times per night... So any "trips" hands you're winning you are most likely also winning your base hand.
The thing I hate most about the trips bet... If you get a RF with $5 on it you get paid $250 (50-1), but if you're betting $10 on your blind bet you get paid $5,000. F the trips, you get a big enough bonus from the blind bet if you hit anything big.
Quote: Romes
The thing I hate most about the trips bet... If you get a RF with $5 on it you get paid $250 (50-1), but if you're betting $10 on your blind bet you get paid $5,000. F the trips, you get a big enough bonus from the blind bet if you hit anything big.
Only the straight flush and the royal flush have bigger payouts on the Blind than the Trips though. Anything less than that, the Trips is the big payout AND it's paying you whether you beat the dealer or not. When four to a flush comes on the board and I've got the deuce-high flush, I'm glad I played the trips. Sure it's mathematically a bad bet, but the satisfaction I gain from it makes up for the money lost to it. That's why I play it.
Most poker based games seem to have the base game and side bets; the latter (usually) pay higher odds for good or excellent hands. The problem is that you're drip feeding money hoping to hit the better hands and higher payouts.
However if you're after a fun game then you may, after refection, play the side bet and accept your time at the table will be less but hope you'll hit a big hand and win a bundle.
I’ve been playing UTH for almost three years, about 3 times a week and getting in 2-3 hours of play. I’m still waiting for my first Quads, SF or RF. I have never seen a RF dealt when I have played and very few SF and Quads.
The stars have to be aligned to catch one of these hands. Right time - lined up with the right casino - lined up with the right table - lined up with the right seat - lined up with the right shuffle. Or maybe it’s all about ‘luck’ which has nothing to do with mathematics.
Play the ‘trips’ for fun and excitement but keep your expectations low and watch your bankroll. You may notice there is a slow constant drain when playing UTH and betting the ‘Trips’.
That's shocking. I play as much as you and I have hit countless quads, and three SF's. Still have yet to see a royal dealt to myself or anyone else. (I did see a royal dealt out on another hold-em based table game).Quote: CharmedQuarkI don’t think players realize how bad the ‘TRIPS’ bet really is from a mathematical prospective. I opined on another thread that the player should factor out the returns for the RF, ST and Quads and consider them a ‘push’ when looking at the house edge. I base this on the miniscule probability of getting one of these hands. Even a pay table with the .9 % HE balloons to an astronomical 7.22% HE and the 1.9% pay table inflates to 8.22% HE when considering the rare likelihood of catching one of those hands. I think most slots return better than this.
I’ve been playing UTH for almost three years, about 3 times a week and getting in 2-3 hours of play. I’m still waiting for my first Quads, SF or RF. I have never seen a RF dealt when I have played and very few SF and Quads.
The stars have to be aligned to catch one of these hands. Right time - lined up with the right casino - lined up with the right table - lined up with the right seat - lined up with the right shuffle. Or maybe it’s all about ‘luck’ which has nothing to do with mathematics.
Play the ‘trips’ for fun and excitement but keep your expectations low and watch your bankroll. You may notice there is a slow constant drain when playing UTH and betting the ‘Trips’.
Quote: teddysStill have yet to see a royal dealt to myself or anyone else. (I did see a royal dealt out on another hold-em based table game).
Should have been there for my one royal. One of the BP's had the 9 for the straight flush on the same hand! :-)
You should have texted me. I probably could have been there in the amount of time it took to pay out that hand.Quote: IbeatyouracesShould have been there for my one royal. One of the BP's had the 9 for the straight flush on the same hand! :-)
Quote: teddysYou should have texted me. I probably could have been there in the amount of time it took to pay out that hand.
Doubtful. They goofed big. I'll explain it next time I see you.
Quote: RomesIf you bet $5 on it, it costs you 17 cents per hand. At an average of 30 hands per hour on UTH, that's $5.10/hour... If you're betting $10 on the ante/blind you're average bet, according to the Wiz is $41. At 30 hands per hour your action is $1230, and ASSUMING you play perfectly you have a house edge of 2.18%, for an expect loss of $26.81/hour. All of these are poor, but if you're looking for variance, the trips bet certainly can add it (in both directions).
I believe you're mistaken. If you go by the average bet, you should use the element of risk. If you go by the official HE, you use that 2.18% against your ante ... $10 ante means about 22 cents. 30 hands per hour, @$6.60 in theoretical
This is why I say it is possible to play roughly break-even if the dealers miss some of their own straights
Quote: wizard on uth pagefor example ... if you bet $1 and both the Ante and Blind initially, then you can expect to lose 2.185 cents on average
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
Ha, I'm just used to calculating it how some casinos I know calculate it, which is 4x your ante against the house edge =).Quote: odiousgambitI believe you're mistaken. If you go by the average bet, you should use the element of risk...
Quote: RomesHa, I'm just used to calculating it how some casinos I know calculate it, which is 4x your ante against the house edge =).
I hope so, a player might get better comps.
Note I quote the Wizard in my reply.
"4x your ante against the house edge" is the wrong way to do it.
Quote: RomesI've been told by a PB that I was given 6x ;-)
A guy I know that gets rated as a $100 bj player on a $10 game by a certain supervisor.
Quote: CommishI have also had 53 straight flushes of my own.
Holy cow. When you say "on a regular basis," how much do you mean? 10 hours a week? 20?
I've played for eight years, though admittedly off-and-on. I have had exactly one straight flush.
Oddly, I've never won with quads on the board. Been out kicked or pushed every time. The worst one was flopping a full house with 77 on a 788 board only for the turn/river to be 88. Lost to a 9 high.
Quote: IbeatyouracesOddly, I've never won with quads on the board. Been out kicked or pushed every time. The worst one was flopping a full house with 77 on a 788 board only for the turn/river to be 88. Lost to a 9 high.
Cue the dealer and the other players with "OHHHHHH YOU SHOULD HAVE PLAYED THE TRIPS! SEEEEEEE? SEEEEEE?"
Quote: DeucekiesCue the dealer and the other players with "OHHHHHH YOU SHOULD HAVE PLAYED THE TRIPS! SEEEEEEE? SEEEEEE?"
Trips, pair plus, high tie, perfect pairs, progressives, etc....
Quote: CharmedQuarkI don’t think players realize how bad the ‘TRIPS’ bet really is from a mathematical prospective. I opined on another thread that the player should factor out the returns for the RF, ST and Quads and consider them a ‘push’ when looking at the house edge. I base this on the miniscule probability of getting one of these hands. Even a pay table with the .9 % HE balloons to an astronomical 7.22% HE and the 1.9% pay table inflates to 8.22% HE when considering the rare likelihood of catching one of those hands. I think most slots return better than this.
I’ve been playing UTH for almost three years, about 3 times a week and getting in 2-3 hours of play. I’m still waiting for my first Quads, SF or RF. I have never seen a RF dealt when I have played and very few SF and Quads.
The stars have to be aligned to catch one of these hands. Right time - lined up with the right casino - lined up with the right table - lined up with the right seat - lined up with the right shuffle. Or maybe it’s all about ‘luck’ which has nothing to do with mathematics.
Play the ‘trips’ for fun and excitement but keep your expectations low and watch your bankroll. You may notice there is a slow constant drain when playing UTH and betting the ‘Trips’.
Not making quads in such an interval seems really, really unlucky. I've never hit a royal, but don't play nearly as much as you, but have gotten several quads and at least three SFs.
The funny part, as I've mentioned at least once, is that I play a decent amount of cardroom hold'em (on average, probably 8 hours a week) and since I started playing UTH, I've gotten 4 royals in various cardrooms under far more difficult circumstances (each one used both cards, and if there is one or more raises in front, I'm folding stuff like JTs/QTs/etc)
As was mentioned upthread, for at least half of the players I've seen, if not more, the Trips bet is the better bet based on how they play. Checking stuff like AK all the way to the end when you finally hit your A or K has to be a massive disaster.
I hit a straight flush this past weekend and the first thing the dealer said was "Oh no! You didn't play the trips!"... I literally looked at her and said "Who cares that's $200 for my $5... THIS is $4k for my bet! Screw the trips!" I just don't think they get how the payouts work lol.Quote: DeucekiesCue the dealer and the other players with "OHHHHHH YOU SHOULD HAVE PLAYED THE TRIPS! SEEEEEEE? SEEEEEE?"
Based on my, admittedly half assed, calcs and assuming 30 hands per hour at a 15 dollar ante bet you should expect to be loosing 10 dollars per hour on the base game and with the trips pay table used at my local casino (1.9% house edge) you would need 510 dollars worth of action for break even. Or roughly 17 dollars per hand on average.
Huh, I wonder if that could be made a profitable killing time play when you factor in comps and the fairly regular money you could get put up on other peoples 4x hands that they don't fully bet/want to bet at 4x.
Variance would probably be killer though without a phenomenal bankroll.
Quote: teddysThe casino near me no longer allows betting on another person's spot. Too bad. That was the best thing ever with certain players.
I get this, so many players won't bet 4x etc when they should
Quote: Paradinehow much action from other players on your trips bet would you have to book for your expected EV per hour to be breakeven.
This I don't get.
I've found a lot of people that don't want to 4x and they let me bet the 4th. Some places don't let you do it, but I've found several that don't care.
Between miss-pays, playing other people's 4x, and letting people bet your trips, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you found yourself in a decent little advantageous situation just playing basic.
Quote: Romesletting people bet your trips
what, the max bet limit is too low for some people?
Quote: odiousgambitThis I don't get.[/q
Someone wants to put, say $10, up on your trips so you say ok and hold their ten dollars off to the side. If the bet would win then you pay them yourself (i.e. give them their 10 back plus 30 from your stack if your hand gets Three of a Kind (pays 3:1 on trips)) and if it would loose then you pocket their money.
Basically you player bank their action as opposed to the House banking their action for that specific bet.
If the amount of action that they want to place exceeds your bankroll levels then you just put up what you don't feel comfortable banking on the Trips for the house to bank and handle the remained yourself (say someone wants to put 100 on your Trips but your bankroll can only support 50 in action so you put 50 up on the bet and bank the other 50 yourself).
