U.S. car drivers are socialists

Imagine for a moment that every apartment building and restaurant is owned by the government. Imagine also that renters and restaurant patrons only paid for just a small fraction of the costs of restaurant meals and apartment rent. Imagine that the majority of the costs are subsidized by other taxes, and even folks who don't rent apartments or eat at restaurants would be forced to pay the tax.

The paragraph above is fiction. Here's the reality: in 2002, $27.9 billion was spent building and maintaining local roads in the U.S. and only $3.1 billion of that was paid for by gasoline taxes, vehicle registration, and toll collection. The rest was subsidized by taxes collected through other means (income tax, sales tax, corporate taxes, etc). In other words, U.S. drivers are getting a free ride. Moreover, politicians are reluctant to raise gasoline taxes & registration fees, so the proportion paid for by user fees has been declining over time. To a certain extent, every American benefits from these roads, because even pedestrians and bicyclists who don't own cars still consume goods delivered on these roads. Nevertheless, non-drivers are disproportionately subsidizing the drivers. [Full disclosure: I drive a Ford and a Toyota and I don't own a bike.]

Everyone wants roads, but no one wants to pay for them. Would you change the system? How?

Quote: reno

In other words, U.S. drivers are getting a free ride.

Q: How many Americans pay no taxes at all?
A: Zero.

It's very simple. Either you pay taxes directly or you pay them indirectly. You can't avoid them, as Ben Franklin aptly pointed out.

Suppose you don't get any money witheld from your paycheck, none, and that you live in a state without a sales tax. Fruther suppose you don't pay property taxes or gas taxes for some reason. Well, one fine day you walk to the store and buy a quart of milk, a loaf of bread and a pound of meat. Part of the money you pay the store will be used to pay the store's taxes. Another aprt will be paid to the distributors that supply the store, and part of that will be used to pay taxes. The distributors will also pay the producers, who will sue aprt of that money to pay taxes.

Now, absent taxes, you'd pay less money because everyone from producer, to distributor, to store would hvae lower expenses.

So you're paying taxes one way or another. There's no getting away from it.

Quote: reno

The paragraph above is fiction. Here's the reality: in 2002, $27.9 billion was spent building and maintaining local roads in the U.S. and only $3.1 billion of that was paid for by gasoline taxes, vehicle registration, and toll collection.

What's your source on this, and how does that source come up with those numbers?

The US consumed 191 billion gallons of gasoline and highway diesel in 2010. I get 187 billion by adding the 3,382,319 thousand barrels of gasoline and the 1,171,880 thousand barrels of low-sulfur diesel fuel and multiplying by by the 42 gallons in a barrel.

http://205.254.135.24/dnav/pet/PET_CONS_PSUP_DC_NUS_MBBL_A.htm

As a check on this figure, the NHTSA says we travel just under 3 trillion vehicle miles a year. Three trillion divided by 187 billion is about 16 miles per gallon, which seems reasonable when considering all vehicles such as large trucks.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

The average gasoline tax, counting federal and state, is 48.6 cents per gallon. Diesel is a bit higher, but I'll use the gasoline number. This is pretty easy to verify, as numbers in this range are printed on many gas pumps.

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/

191 billion * .486 = $93.0 billion collected in gasoline taxes per year. That's just fuel taxes. So to put it mildly, I disagree with the $3.1 billion number.

I acknowledge building roads carries externalities (use of eminent domain, air and noise pollution, accidents, time lost due to congestion, etc.), but these effects are not unique to motor vehicles.

Quote: 7outlineaway

What's your source on this, and how does that source come up with those numbers?

I'm talking about local roads, not highways. State and interstate highways are well-funded with gasoline taxes. Allocating this money for highways is perfectly appropriate, but it still leaves local roads underfunded, and taxpayers without cars are contributing almost as much tax money as drivers are. The numbers I quoted can be found on the table on page 6 of this report.

It is not "to a certain extent" everyone benefits from the local roads. Everyone benefits.

If you eat it, wear it, live in it, use it for power, drink it, and any other means of consumption then you can thank whoever drove the truck it came in on.

And I am NOT Jerry Logan pumping my trucking company. It is a fact of life. Unless non-drivers are somehow walking thru the woods to get where they are going or living as hermits, they are not somehow giving everyone else a free ride.

I'm not flaming, but really, who "does not drive"? I'm quite ignorant on the subject, what with me being so rural, but in a great part of US, I couldn't see living without a car. NYC comes to mind, as you'd be kind of daft TO own a car, but who are these other "non-drivers"?

That "study" has so many holes it's not worth getting into. I will point out some huge flaws, however.

* First, the report tries to quantify the costs of motor vehicles and the infrastructure surrounding them, but completely ignores their benefits. These include reduced travel times, greater flexibility, ablility to transport goods in addition to people, ability to be used by people who can't walk or bike, preferability in inclement weather, and so on.
* Even if you accept that "local roads" (which the report never really quantifies) are MOSTLY subsized outside of direct taxes on car drivers, pedestrian and bike facilities are COMPLETELY free of direct costs to their users. I'm not aware of any juristiction with a "sneaker tax" or a tollbooth across a sidewalk or a bike path.
* It is telling the report completely ignores public transportation. Public transit is far more socialized than private cars are! No public transit agency in the US is anywhere close to breaking even from fares. How do the authors propose we get across town, much less across the country, in our little pedestrian utopia?

I'll also note road building, maintenance and car-related facilities (gas stations, repair shops) do create a tremendous number of jobs, which I continue to believe are mostly paid for directly by road users.

I lived in Chicago for 14 years, and for most of them, didn't have a car. I spent about half my years there biking to work, and the other half walking after I moved closer to my job. Living this way had enough benefits from reduced costs, reduced stress and improved fitness. I'm not sure what the authors here want, other than to proclaim themselves as the whiny bicyclist douchebags they are.

Quote: 7outlineaway

other than to proclaim themselves as the whiny bicyclist douchebags they are.

Bicyclists and runners really bug me. They act soooooo superior
to the rest of us, always throwing in our faces that the run 10
miles a day or bike everywhere. Running is ultimately bad for
you, the older you get the more likely it is something will get
injured. Knees, hip joints, tendons, a myriad of things can
plague you. How many people a year drop dead while running,
that could have lived for years longer if they hadn't overdone
it.

I voted that gas taxes should be raised to cover all road expenses, whatever they may be. They should also get rid of public toll booths and make up the revenue from gas taxes. In my opinion, this country would be a more pleasant place to live in if gas was as expensive as it is in Europe, and we balanced that out by lower income and corporate taxes.

Quote: 7outlineaway

I'm not sure what the authors here want, other than to proclaim themselves as the whiny bicyclist douchebags they are.

It is an old ploy for this type to say they "do not use the roads" or "do not use oil."

Had it happen in college almost 20 years ago, first Gulf War. Some long-haired-dope-smoking-maggot-infested-FM-type was so against the war and said, "I (he) don't use petroleum or petroleum products." I easily picked this apart, citing even the computer he was using was made of plastic. He went on a rant about the elites controlling the world or something. I eventually found most of the people who worked at the computer center hated him. He was nearly ejected a few times.

Quote: AZDuffman

I easily picked this apart, citing even the computer he was using was made of plastic.

There's an ep of 'Madern Marvels' called 'Oil' and the number
of things we get from crude oil is mind boggling. Its used in
every facet of our lives, even the drugs we take. Literally
thousands of products and uses.

Quote: Wizard

In my opinion, this country would be a more pleasant place to live in if gas was as expensive as it is in Europe, and we balanced that out by lower income and corporate taxes.

I actually agree with this. The key for me is that it be revenue-neutral. You'd have positive side effects such as less traffic congestion and slower deterioration of roads, and higher prices of goods should be balanced out by higher after-tax disposable income. But if you're gonna slap another $3 on the price of gas, I sure as hell don't want $2.50 of it going to bike paths.

Quote: EvenBob

There's an ep of 'Madern Marvels' called 'Oil' and the number
of things we get from crude oil is mind boggling. Its used in
every facet of our lives, even the drugs we take. Literally
thousands of products and uses.

So true. I think that if we didn't even use a drop for motor fuels we would still need to import some.

Quote: AZDuffman

So true. I think that if we didn't even use a drop for motor fuels we would still need to import some.

Please carry on doing so... keeps me in socialized health care ;)

But less sarcastically, oil is a wonderful thing and we use it very effectively for all sorts of stuff, not just for creating a series of small explosions to push around...

Quote: thecesspit

Please carry on doing so... keeps me in socialized health care ;)

But less sarcastically, oil is a wonderful thing and we use it very effectively for all sorts of stuff, not just for creating a series of small explosions to push around...

We will see what happens with compressed natural gas. I can only abstract the title for one well at a time, but give me a few years to get them drilling........

Quote: 7outlineaway

Public transit is far more socialized than private cars are! No public transit agency in the US is anywhere close to breaking even from fares.

Agreed. But drivers get another huge subsidy: the U.S. spends billions each year maintaining military bases in the Middle East. Excluding Iraq & Afghanistan, most of these bases existed before 9/11, so their purpose was not to combat terrorism, their purpose was to protect the flow of oil. (The real scam is that this is a subsidy for other oil users like Japan, who benefit from American taxpayer spending on oil security.) If the Persian Gulf's main export was pineapple, would America really have all these military bases?

Quote: reno

If the Persian Gulf's main export was pineapple, would America really have all these military bases?

I sure hope so:

The study talks about LOCAL roads. I've worked as a consultant for a couple of local governments and know how the funding works.

First, municipal funding always comes primarily from Property Taxes, Sewer, and Water bills (if operated locally) with a great deal of funding also from state (provincial) and federal governments depending on the projects. It is impractical for each municipality to assess a gasoline tax and attach it to their pumps. This would create unfair competition as a gas station would just need to be open in the unincoporated area outside of the local government. Collection would also be a nightmare.

Roads, Fire, Police, Sewers, Water (including water treatment), Transit, and Parks are all major parts of the municipal government budget. School taxes are also collected as part of property taxes and distributed to the schools within the region. Of course, it is possible to recover some user fees from each of these divisions. It's amazing how many assets that the municipality owns and must keep care of, all done with your tax dollars. Roads, Sewer, and Water funding also comes from community developers.

Roads budgets are usually divided into maintanence vs Capital budgets. Capital budgets are usually planned a few years in advance as they know what roads are reaching the end of their useful life and what roads need to be built and expanded (or retired). These budgets are paid for by depositing some of the property taxes into a reserve account and then using that reserve to fund the project.

My general opinion on roads funding for local roads is that it's fair to be included in property taxes. The owner of the property is presumed to use roads in their community. Your house has an address - police and fire need to use that road. That road needs to be cleared in the winter. Sidewalks are maintained. Lampposts are maintained. You need to get in and out of your community - whether you use the sidewalk and walk or drive, you are using your road. Mail is delivered. Cable is installed. All of these use road accesses. You may feel slighted if you don't use the roads. I feel slighted paying for school tax when I don't have any children living at home. The assumption however of "if you live in our community, you are free to use our services" I feel is valid. I don't want another layer of tax to pay for my local services, and I never supported local sales tax either.

I may not use the library, for example, but I value literacy and am happy to pay a portion of my property tax to support literacy.

Quote: boymimbo

It is impractical for each municipality to assess a gasoline tax and attach it to their pumps. This would create unfair competition as a gas station would just need to be open in the unincoporated area outside of the local government. Collection would also be a nightmare.

Ok, this makes sense. But couldn't a gas tax be collected on a county by county basis?