CharmedQuark
CharmedQuark
Joined: Apr 28, 2015
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August 23rd, 2015 at 9:56:12 PM permalink
I went over to my local Indian casino to play a few hours of UTH this afternoon. There is only one table and itís a Shuffle Master licensed game. Itís been there about six months. Most dealers are clueless about the game and just follow the policies and procedures determined by management.

When I got there the SM machine was out of service and the game was being hand shuffled/hand dealt while the SM was being fixed. Iíve never sat at a hand shuffled/hand dealt game of UTH before. I sat in with my usual $15-$15 ante bet. After about two hands I noticed that the method of dealing the game was like this: Hand shuffle with dealer using a cut card to cut the deck (players not permitted to use cut card) before placing the deck in the shoe. First two cards out of the shoe became the turn/river cards and the next three cards became the flop cards. Then two cards to each player (seat 1 first) and finally two cards to the dealer. This seemed improper to me. I thought that the first three cards out of the shoe should be the flop and the next two cards should be the turn/river cards. I brought it to the dealers attention and got rebuffed Ė the famous ďWe have policies and procedures to follow and this is how weíre taught to hand deal the gameĒ. I then asked the floor person about the dealing procedure. I got the same answer from her. I did argue with her (heatedly) that I believed their procedure was wrong explaining how the cards come out of the SM machine. She didnít care and became obstinate and stubborn. Makes sense Ė she works for the casino.

After about 5 hands (very slow between hands), the SM was put back in service. I watched the cards come out of the shuffler and it looked like this: Five cards came out in a stack and the top card being the first card in order. The dealer place those cards in from him and Ďfannedí them from right to left so that the top three cards became the flop and the bottom two cards became the turn/river cards. I showed the floor person what was happening and she refused to acknowledge what I and two other players had observed with the SM and explaining the difference between the SM and hand dealt procedure. After about 6 hands the SM machine crashed again. The floor person came over and told the dealer (a different one) to hand shuffle/hand deal the game and proceeded to show him the casinoís method of shuffling and dealing.

With the game being hand dealt I didnít think the players were getting a fair shake when it came to making the 2X bet on the flop. Does the sequence matter? We were looking at the last three cards out of the shoe as the flop. Bizarre. Thatís when I quit.

Hmmm . . . maybe Iím wrong. But does anyone know the proper way to hand shuffle and hand deal UTH?
Wiggins
Wiggins
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August 23rd, 2015 at 10:31:52 PM permalink
Why would it matter? A random card is a random card. There is no "proper way" - it's up to each casino to follow their own policies and procedures.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 23rd, 2015 at 10:33:06 PM permalink
It makes no difference. Even when used with the shuffler, some places spread the cards from left to right and others right to left. I've probably seen UTH dealt ten different ways.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 24th, 2015 at 1:39:47 AM permalink
This is interesting....this very topic game up before: many places manually deal UTH.

1. Dealer completes a full single deal shuffle.
2. Dealer cut (aka "Poker cut");
3. Dealer then deals: Participating players get two hole cards only and decide to check or raise 4x. Do NOT deal the community board or dealer's hand - even face down - until these cards are necessary in the game, as it can destroy game protection. Why deal any community board or dealer's hand cards before they are necessary (and only needed at the proper points) -- when players can hold card or Advantage-Play this information early on??
4. Players Raise 4x, 3x or check.
5. Dealer deals the flop (three community cards) only.
6. Players make a 2x raise or check.
7. Dealer deals turn and River cards, and players call 1x or fold.
8. Dealer deals his two-card hand, and takes or pays the remaining players.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DeMango
DeMango
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August 24th, 2015 at 5:05:37 AM permalink
hole card Dan!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
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August 24th, 2015 at 5:19:16 AM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

Does the sequence matter?



As previously mentioned, no, sequence doesn't matter. Random is random.

The thing to worry about is if a dealer's procedure changes from round to round.
May the cards fall in your favor.
CharmedQuark
CharmedQuark
Joined: Apr 28, 2015
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August 24th, 2015 at 11:32:33 PM permalink
Thanks for the replies.

So there is no set standard procedure to hand deal UTH. It's left up to the casino to set it's own procedure.

The cards can be dealt in any manner or sequence - burning cards permitted - use of shoe optional. Just as long as each player and the dealer get two hole cards and there is a five card board, any three of which can be used as the flop and remaining two as the turn/river cards in any order.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 25th, 2015 at 12:25:04 AM permalink
Actually, the sequence of card dealing/distribution does matter very greatly, - and are generally extremely well defined - as far as proper game protection is concerned, as well as for proper surveillance and dealing procedure, and for the very casino or card room that they're trying to protect as management workers or executives.

Generally, this information will or should come come from the ICs ("Internal Control Documents") that they have access to, as the casino or card room executive that they pretend to be. These are often posted online for casino management (Washington State is but one example here. Click on Gaming Activities, then on [approved] Card Game Rules, and you've got the work information. They can also contact their local Shuffle master rep who sold the UTH game, and to whom they pay monthly game lease fees on. It must have been part of the sales and lease kit that got their UTH game into the card room or casino tha is run.

But if they work for, - or in, - the gaming industry, and one is asking HERE for game protection help on live action table games from AP players on an AP forum (for the most part), they are either full of malarkey, or they do not know the job from a damn hole in the wall. wow...................scary and pathetic......

They are either tricksters (a fraud outfit not in compliance), or a complete incompetent, and there is no other scenario. I'm sorry to be so rough here, but I am skeptical. Never saw such a situation. Did see many times SHFL workers training dealers....Card rooms generally live in fear of compliance...

They are required to contact their immediate management, or review the Internal Control Documents they have in place, or contact the local Gaming Control Board office (Enforcement Division), for help on these matters, and not with someone asking an Advantage Players gambling forum on how to properly run the card room through a player. That's a beaut. Or at least the Shuffle Master Sales Rep who sold or leased them the UTH game they have. They generally come with an install kit and operations kit, and with a few hours of dealer and management training.

Can you state for us the casino or Gaming operator that they work for? (Boyd Gaming, MGM Resorts, Station Casinos, the Cannery group, Tribal casino so-and-so-, etc,) if you can? Or the Gaming Control Board Enforcement that this gaming outfit falls under? .....You caught some attention here....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 25th, 2015 at 7:48:47 AM permalink
Dan, SHOVE IT!! The OP is not interested in AP at all for crying out loud and neither are we in this thread. He/she was ONLY concerned about the community cards dealt left to right or right to left. Nothing else.. get a damn life!

Quote OP:

"Hand shuffle with dealer using a cut card to cut the deck (players not permitted to use cut card) before placing the deck in the shoe. First two cards out of the shoe became the turn/river cards and the next three cards became the flop cards. Then two cards to each player (seat 1 first) and finally two cards to the dealer."

Seems to me the cards were slid out of a shoe and not exposed during the dealing process.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 25th, 2015 at 12:39:06 PM permalink
No, I have no issue with the OP - the issue and annoyance is with the card room and their slop.

The attention to detail in procedure, for both the management and dealers, is usually a thousand times as strict with casinos, - especially the larger chains, and it has to be. (The account was akin watching people drive on the wrong side of the road and on the highway, or watching people prepare your food under the most of unsanitary conditions. I would say something about a dangerous food prep kitchen in a restaurant.)

We require the blackjack dealers who, after hitting the cut card at the end of the round, split the slug of the remaining deck, and then split that slug into three, to plug the deck sitting in the discard rack in three areas. Takes two seconds to do, and it thwarts shuffle tracking. Don't do it, and either the dealer pays a visit to the shift office, or a shuffle-tracking team may make a mint.

On UTH when using machines, the community cards are slid to the right, so that the bottom card is the first flop card, and the top card is the river. There are progressives that count wins based on the hole cards + flop only, and if I were a player denied a big win from wrong procedure, I would call gaming, plain and simple. The cards are also slid along the felt to prevent hole carding, and yeah, if a dealer gets blisters, he protected the game.

If a major chain operator ran their places otherwise, the losses would be in the millions. If a shareholder, I wouldn't be happy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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