Roulette: Cheater, Lucky or Us?

Quote: endermike

Please answer



For the initial fill.

I believe it is $1000 per side however I could be wrong. I don't run the bank.

Quote: Riva

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You've got it...



No, you don't. No Time for that. You cannot win $5000 in that amount of time even if you win every bet.

Unless if you have a way to hit the number 4 or 5 times per spin (actually, more, given the time taken for the fill), you need another theory here.

If, as I had suggested, that a neighborhood of numbers were hot, you could have multiple wins on each spin. Yes, only one straight-up number would win but what about splits? Each one of those splits would pay $60. that pile could get big pretty quick. Plus, I was told he was just betting straight up and splits, which makes sense; biggest payouts in the shortest amount of time.

You will have to explain to me how the size of the "neighborhood" affects the number of winning bets per spin.

Seriously, pull out a calculator. Figure out the max win per spin. Figure out the number of spins required to win $5000. Now figure out how this could be done in 15 minutes with time for a fill.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Quote: Riva

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You've got it...



No, you don't. No Time for that. You cannot win $5000 in that amount of time even if you win every bet.

Unless if you have a way to hit the number 4 or 5 times per spin (actually, more, given the time taken for the fill), you need another theory here.

If, as I had suggested, that a neighborhood of numbers were hot, you could have multiple wins on each spin. Yes, only one straight-up number would win but what about splits? Each one of those splits would pay $60. that pile could get big pretty quick. Plus, I was told he was just betting straight up and splits, which makes sense; biggest payouts in the shortest amount of time.

You will have to explain to me how the size of the "neighborhood" affects the number of winning bets per spin.

Seriously, pull out a calculator. Figure out the max win per spin. Figure out the number of spins required to win $5000. Now figure out how this could be done in 15 minutes with time for a fill.

To begin with, if they made a neighborhood, say 5 numbers, they would be located on a part of the wheel that is far away from the 0/00. And, depending where that number is located on the layout, there could be anywhere from 2 to 4 splits on the number. If you had two splits, the payout would be $245. For 3 splits, the payout would be $305. 4 splits: $365

As for a fill, perhaps we have a different idea of what's involved. For us, the house delivers chips to the table and it's duly recorded. 1 minute or 2, tops.

Quote: Riva

I believe it is $1000 per side however I could be wrong. I don't run the bank.

This is another issue. Even if he cleaned out BOTH sides of the table, you would have needed to fill both sides twice for him to be able to pull out 5k in chips. I think whoever told you 5k was exaggerating. (or maybe the tables start with more money)

this thread is so funny.


riva, axiom is giving you solid information and you just keep ignoring it. how many times does he have to say that even if the player WON EVERY BET HE PLACED, he couldn't have won $5000 in 15 or 20 or even 30 minutes with a $5 max bet -- even if you could make multiple $5 max bets per spin.

Yet you keep gravitating toward biased wheels / electromagnetically gaffed wheels / Lord knows what else. Forget the wheel. That's clearly not how you got scammed, if you even got scammed. Your story is so inconsistent and blatantly impossible, I have no idea what actually happened.

Quote: sodawater

this thread is so funny.


riva, axiom is giving you solid information and you just keep ignoring it. how many times does he have to say that even if the player WON EVERY BET HE PLACED, he couldn't have won $5000 in 15 or 20 or even 30 minutes with a $5 max bet -- even if you could make multiple $5 max bets per spin.

Yet you keep gravitating toward biased wheels / electromagnetically gaffed wheels / Lord knows what else. Forget the wheel. That's clearly not how you got scammed, if you even got scammed. Your story is so inconsistent and blatantly impossible, I have no idea what actually happened.

My opinion is that it was long enough ago that the time component is being significantly mis-rememberd.

If every other part of the story is correct (and I have no reason to believe it's not), then it's clearly a gaffed wheel from the rental company. It's much more likely that the time the guy spent at the table was off by an order of magnitude (2 hours instead of 15 minutes) than it is that Riva made up the whole part about the email he wasn't supposed to see. And in 2 hours the player could have plausibly won 40 max bets if he knew the ball was going to land in one of a few numbers.

Sure he could be making the whole thing up out of whole cloth; it's just words on the internet after all. But what would be the point?

Quote: sodawater

this thread is so funny.


riva, axiom is giving you solid information and you just keep ignoring it. how many times does he have to say that even if the player WON EVERY BET HE PLACED, he couldn't have won $5000 in 15 or 20 or even 30 minutes with a $5 max bet -- even if you could make multiple $5 max bets per spin.

Yet you keep gravitating toward biased wheels / electromagnetically gaffed wheels / Lord knows what else. Forget the wheel. That's clearly not how you got scammed, if you even got scammed. Your story is so inconsistent and blatantly impossible, I have no idea what actually happened.

If that's the case..explain the email.

It's possible that the e-mail was referencing cheating some other way than a gaffed wheel.

Quote: sodawater

this thread is so funny.


riva, axiom is giving you solid information and you just keep ignoring it. how many times does he have to say that even if the player WON EVERY BET HE PLACED, he couldn't have won $5000 in 15 or 20 or even 30 minutes with a $5 max bet -- even if you could make multiple $5 max bets per spin.

Yet you keep gravitating toward biased wheels / electromagnetically gaffed wheels / Lord knows what else. Forget the wheel. That's clearly not how you got scammed, if you even got scammed. Your story is so inconsistent and blatantly impossible, I have no idea what actually happened.

And neither does Riva.

He is trying to figure it out.

He doesn't have all the facts from the "player" who went to the cage with more chippies than he should have had. Maybe Riva's time frames are blown up.

Maybe the guy only had $2,100 on him when he went to the cage, think maybe someone inflated the number to Riva? That is heresay testimony to Riva.

Something went down at Riva's Event. This "hat" guy was involved, and maybe, just maybe, the dealer was. Certainly, after the fact, Riva found out that maybe something was crooked about the tables....

Work with the guy. Your math on the potential winnings and the time it takes makes sense. Overbetting or over chipping makes sense as well. That would implicate the dealer. Scary for Riva if that is the case. A trusted volunteer is now about to be busted...

The buy-in could have been more that $100, nobody is sure about that... Again, more heresay to Riva, he was doing something else while the betting is going on.

Also, his organization does these events every month. This guy was NOT a regular. He sticks out...

Riva should have had the local cops: "taser him, bro!

Maybe they would have found out what was going on then.

How many here, if you were playing honestly, and found out that you had won above the $500 limit that you didn't know about, would have created a scene to the extent that the cops cruised over? How many would have gone back to playing?

But if you were NOT playing honestly, how many would have stayed around longer than necessary?

SFB

Quote: Riva

If that's the case..explain the email.

I actually thought this was your smoking gun too, but then I thought about it some more.

Quote: Riva

Then a strange thing happened...and I really can't explain exactly how it happened,,,but I was cc'd on one of the emails (or it might have been a text) I sent to the seller. Actually, he simply forwards the message to somebody else without deleting me. However it occurred, I am reading somebody else's mail. And...get ready...the message is sent to the fellow I had rented the 25" roulette wheel last summer where the big conflict occurred.

The message read to the effect. "ever heard of this event? It's huge". The guy from the rental place responds "Yes. I rented wheels to them last year. Nothing there. Tight game. Have a $500 cap."

I think I can come up with reasonable doubt. I can read those as a guy who maybe is looking to get back into the gaming industry interested in finding out about a successful operation. He was asking you a lot of questions in person as well.

If I were selling off assets from a failed buisness to someone else in that industry I might check up on how they do buisness as well. Especially if I was interested in staying in that industry (always good to learn from your mistakes).

-Nothing there = a place you can't pick up anything from
(probably true based on what we have learned so far based on your limits and security)
-Tight game = they pay out well below standard casino payouts
-Have a $500 cap = self explanatory

Of course you can read that with nefarious intent, too. Do you still have the full exchange?

Quote: Riva

To begin with, if they made a neighborhood, say 5 numbers, they would be located on a part of the wheel that is far away from the 0/00. And, depending where that number is located on the layout, there could be anywhere from 2 to 4 splits on the number. If you had two splits, the payout would be $245. For 3 splits, the payout would be $305. 4 splits: $365.

As for a fill, perhaps we have a different idea of what's involved. For us, the house delivers chips to the table and it's duly recorded. 1 minute or 2, tops.

Ok. How long does a spin take? You have rookie dealers trying to pay this guy off with stacks of chips. No way they are getting in more than a spin every 2 minutes. Let's say that they can do a spin every 90 seconds. And let's ignore the time for the fill.

Ok, so, 15 minutes = 10 spins. 10 spins * $365 = $3650. And that is assuming that he is betting exactly a number and the 4 connecting splits on each and every bet, and winning EVERY SINGLE ONE. No losses at all -- he is picking the right number every single time.

Do you still think that $5k in 15 min is possible? It would take 14 winning spins (and no losses!) at $365 each to get to $5k. Did the dealer stand there and spin and pay him 14 times in a row while the guy picked the winning number every single time?? Still think that he is not in on it?

Quote: endermike

I actually thought this was your smoking gun too, but then I thought about it some more.



I think I can come up with reasonable doubt. I can read those as a guy who maybe is looking to get back into the gaming industry interested in finding out about a successful operation. He was asking you a lot of questions in person as well.

If I were selling off assets from a failed business to someone else in that industry I might check up on how they do business as well. Especially if I was interested in staying in that industry (always good to learn from your mistakes).

-Nothing there = a place you can't pick up anything from
(probably true based on what we have learned so far based on your limits and security)
-Tight game = they pay out well below standard casino payouts
-Have a $500 cap = self explanatory

Of course you can read that with nefarious intent, too. Do you still have the full exchange?

To tell you the truth..the guy who sold me the poker tables gave me the creeps. My impression was that he saw "opportunity" with the largess of our operations and he somehow wanted to wedge himself into our operation. He even suggested that we should leverage our non-profit status and building facilities in to a full-time gambling enterprise. Ummmm no!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Ok. How long does a spin take? You have rookie dealers trying to pay this guy off with stacks of chips. No way they are getting in more than a spin every 2 minutes. Let's say that they can do a spin every 90 seconds. And let's ignore the time for the fill.

Ok, so, 15 minutes = 10 spins. 10 spins * $365 = $3650. And that is assuming that he is betting exactly a number and the 4 connecting splits on each and every bet, and winning EVERY SINGLE ONE. No losses at all -- he is picking the right number every single time.

Do you still think that $5k in 15 min is possible? It would take 14 winning spins (and no losses!) at $365 each to get to $5k. Did the dealer stand there and spin and pay him 14 times in a row while the guy picked the winning number every single time?? Still think that he is not in on it?

Axiom, I admire your zeal and respect your knowledge of the game but respectfully, you are way over-thinking this thing.

This is charitable gaming staffed almost entirely by volunteers that have virtually ZERO knowledge of the game and/or its risks or nuances. They are supposedly protected by pit bosses who only have slightly more knowledge of the business of gambling than the people they supervise. Then, there's me, and a few others like me, who want to make the event as profitable as possible for a great non-profit organization, but also know that there is an element of cheaters out there who want to take advantage of us.

Dealers are robots. They would have stayed there all night paying this guy $300 per-spin until their shift was over if they had a million $'s in front of them. After all, it aint their personal money. Then, they would go home, have a few drinks and go to bed. The pit boss would go home saying how much work he /she had to do and, that table #6 had a bad night. I, on the other hand, look at it differently. I look at it from the perspective of how the hell did that guy take so much money from us, in so little time, and with the rules so heavily tilted toward the house. The $500 cap stops some of them from the great train robbery, which is what was attempted here. My goal and purpose here, is not to make sure the math and clock coincide as you assert but rather, figure out how the hell the scam came about so I/we can be on the lookout for it in the future! What part of that don't you understand?

Quote: Riva

My goal and purpose here, is not to make sure the math and clock coincide as you assert but rather, figure out how the hell the scam came about so I/we can be on the lookout for it in the future! What part of that don't you understand?

And what EVERYONE else here is telling you is that you were not scammed by a biased wheel, and if you don't start looking elsewhere you are likely to get scammed again.

if you're going to be "on the lookout" for biased wheels or electromagnetic wheels in the future you are leaving yourself completely open to whatever happened again. Even the most biased wheel in the world is not going to repeat the same number 15 spins in a row.

Something other than a gaffed wheel was involved.

Edit: [AoC pardon me if I am wrong in attributing this to you. It is for the most part how I have viewed this problem]

Riva, the math AoC is so focused on is a quick check to figure out where the vulnerabilities of your game are. He is taking the maximum likelihood view. He saying "given X happened, with all the conditions you stated, what is the explanation which has maximum likelihood?" Frankly, all the explanations are not super likely. But the reality is that at least of those explanations happened. So, from a gaming security PoV, we should find what are the most likely explanations.

Put another way (failure analysis) given a failure occurred, what is (are) the most likely explanation(s) for the failure that occurred.

Here are the candidates we have come up with so far (and combinations of them are definitely in play):
1) The chips were over estimated by at least a few folks (anyone who told you 5k)
2) Biased wheel (for the whole night or maybe just the beginning via an on/off mechanism)
3) Player was over paid on wins and/or possibly paid on non-wins
4) The player walked in with a lot of extra chips and/or given chips by confederates during his time in the event

Some of those also require
a) Insane betting patterns
b) Insane streak of wins
c) Criminally oblivious dealers and pit since the table had to be refilled at least once and then re-cleaned out

2) Needs a, b, and c
3) Needs c and probably a

We can add a mitigating factor "he was there for longer than 15 min" and that increases the likelihood of many of those options

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

And what EVERYONE else here is telling you is that you were not scammed by a biased wheel, and if you don't start looking elsewhere you are likely to get scammed again.

Quote: sodawater

if you're going to be "on the lookout" for biased wheels or electromagnetic wheels in the future you are leaving yourself completely open to whatever happened again. Even the most biased wheel in the world is not going to repeat the same number 15 spins in a row.

Something other than a gaffed wheel was involved.

Unless he was seriously off on the total $$$ amount, or the total time spend at the wheel! Riva has yet to confirm that he is 100% sure these two variables are correct from the original story.

I think it's entirely plausible he was taken by a mangnetic wheel, OR some other chip counterfeit scam/dealer collusion. That's all I'm saying.

Quote: endermike

Edit: [AoC pardon me if I am wrong in attributing this to you. It is for the most part how I have viewed this problem]

Riva, the math AoC is so focused on is a quick check to figure out where the vulnerabilities of your game are. He is taking the maximum likelihood view. He saying "given X happened, with all the conditions you stated, what is the explanation which has maximum likelihood?" Frankly, all the explanations are not super likely. But the reality is that at least of those explanations happened. So, from a gaming security PoV, we should find what are the most likely explanations.

Put another way (failure analysis) given a failure occurred, what is (are) the most likely explanation(s) for the failure that occurred.

Here are the candidates we have come up with so far (and combinations of them are definitely in play):
1) The chips were over estimated by at least a few folks (anyone who told you 5k)
2) Biased wheel (for the whole night or maybe just the beginning via an on/off mechanism)
3) Player was over paid on wins and/or possibly paid on non-wins
4) The player walked in with a lot of extra chips and/or given chips by confederates during his time in the event

Some of those also require
a) Insane betting patterns
b) Insane streak of wins
c) Criminally oblivious dealers and pit since the table had to be refilled at least once and then re-cleaned out

2) Needs a, b, and c
3) Needs c and probably a

We can add a mitigating factor "he was there for longer than 15 min" and that increases the likelihood of many of those options

OK, my reply...

Here are the candidates we have come up with so far (and combinations of them are definitely in play):
1) The chips were over estimated by at least a few folks (anyone who told you 5k)

Yes, definitely a a hysterical announcement and subject to some scrutiny. "In to us for 5 grand" is an easy way to describe a horrible situation. Nobody is going to say, "Riva, that fellow over there has already won in excess of $4,893.68." So, how do I come up with the 5 grand number. Answer: I asked. I asked the cashier boss, who had to handle the fellow, how many chips the guy was trying to cash in. His response: "North of 5 grand". My response at the time..."No wonder he was pissed."

2) Biased wheel (for the whole night or maybe just the beginning via an on/off mechanism)

We've rule out biased wheel because of the clock and the math. It had to be a magnetic wheel, most probably with an on/off mechanism.

3) Player was over paid on wins and/or possibly paid on non-wins

Read my lips...this dealer was is good at his job and he is honest. NEXT!

4) The player walked in with a lot of extra chips and/or given chips by confederates during his time in the event.

Guys...he was one of the first people that went through the door when we opened up the door. He was out of the room within 30 minutes of arrival. We have 4 people at the door taking money, checking ID, giving directions and looking for drunks. He did not come in with 500 counterfeit chips. Nor did a dozen worker bees feed him 500 counterfeit chips. he was at the table all by himself, stared with probably $300 in purchased chips and a all the chips he acquired were pushed to him by the house. IT was NOT money laundering!

Some of those also require
a) Insane betting patterns

Not insane when you know where the ball is most likely to drop

b) Insane streak of wins

That is exactly what happened..insane win streak and, nobody did anything probably until the fill.

c) Criminally oblivious dealers and pit since the table had to be refilled at least once and then re-cleaned out

Can't disagree. At least we had the $500 cap firewall working at the get go, right?

You came and asked for help. You are now ignoring the help and sticking to your impossible theory.

Enjoy getting cleaned out again next time. I'm sure that they will be smarter and have enough people to carry the chips out $500 at a time.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Unless he was seriously off on the total $$$ amount, or the total time spend at the wheel! Riva has yet to confirm that he is 100% sure these two variables are correct from the original story.

I think it's entirely plausible he was taken by a magnetic wheel, OR some other chip counterfeit scam/dealer collusion. That's all I'm saying.

I have already stated that my clock could be jilted--but not by that much. It's been 3 years but I'm not off by more than 5 minutes max.

It was not counterfeit chips because he would have had to come in with and/or be pushed, at a minimum, 500 chips. 500 chips, counterfeit or not, is literally a 5-gallon bucket of $10 chips. Simply impossible.

Dealer collusion? NOT!!

Haha this is like talking to a wall.

So we are looking at this thing from a few perspectives.

1) The time and amounts could be under scrutiny. I think the amount could be accurate but the time is definitely a little off. (One ties into the other obviously)
2) How was the wheel rigged (if it was rigged)? Biased wheel will give you a sector and even then, the canoes will deflect some of the balls so you could still have a random section or three thrown in there. If the wheel was rigged it more than likely was done in such a way that the supplier could make absolutely 100% sure that the balls (which they supplied *sweeping facepalm*) were going to land in the correct spots all the time.
3) Lets look at collusion. If indeed the dealer was crooked, why would he pass out chips to the player over the $500 limit UNLESS he informed him somewhere along the line (most probably long before the event even started) that he would need to pass off the winnings to confederates or to unsuspecting players with the promise of a $20 pay day........This doesn't appear to have happened.

Let us take my opinions and suggestions and list them under the same numbers as above.

1) It is possible that the time was not accurate and that this person spent perhaps 30 to 45 minutes at the game. It couldn't have been much longer than 45 minutes otherwise more people would have noticed (imo). What could he have won in 45 minutes on a wheel that he couldn't lose on? $365*20 spins = $7300 (worst or best case scenario, depending on your point of view). If you magnetise ONLY the 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29 and 32 you make sure that there is a large enough number spread not to draw too much heat and you have numbers that the player can bet "maximum" on each spin. Let's look at him only being there for 30-minutes hitting every number every time. $365*15 = $5,475 (probably a little more accurate). This would also mean that there had to be at least 5 fills during his play unless the cage decided to increase the par float because of the amount of the winnings).
2) I don't think an electromagnet was used because it would require a current would it not? The wheel doesn't get plugged in anywhere and also would the supplier risk having a small battery or some other current producing device inside the wheel? I'm not sure. Also to produce a current for at least the time from when the wheel left the facility to the time that the scam happens.......I'm no expert but that had to have been quite a large battery? I think a much more plausable version is that the balls were magnetised along with the number slots. Even if he only hit about 80% of the time, it would still give him an opportunity to hit close to the $5k mark IF the time was off......which we have flogged enough now methinks!
3) I don't think the staff were involved at all because there are too many holes in the story UNLESS the magician got spooked and didn't follow through with the plan as explained. Still, when you are trying to perpetrate a scam, you attempt to involve as few people as possible. Also, depending on how Riva and her team does the scheduling, the dealers don't know which tables they will be dealing at until they arrive........

Riva, here are my suggestions:

A) Don't hire form that schmuck again, which you obviously will not.
B) Don't EVER get balls from an outside source. Get your own balls, test them, secure them and use them. If you want to I can give you the name of a great supplier in Missouri. PM me if you are interested. Also all equipment should be tested before the start of your events.
C) Before starting each event, tell you staff that, due to new gaming regulations, you will have a plain clothes agent from the gaming division at the event watching over the night. You don't even know what he looks like but if he sees anything untoward, the night will be stopped and legal action will be taken where appropriate.

I wish you good luck and keep up the good, charitable work!

Riva, I wish you the best of luck moving forward. I would most certainly keep the $500 limit as that will help protect you moving forward.

If memory serves, on another thread you said you guys were near some "real" casinos in the Detroit area. If I were you I might try to chat up a pit bosses or casino managers at one of those casinos and see if they might be willing to donate some of their time to help you guys with this event moving forward.

In a perfect world, one of them would be totally jacked for your charity and would help you with dealer training and event supervision. But I think even if all they did was come to your event before you guys set it up and look around they would have some really useful suggestions. If you could get them to spend a few minutes at each kind of game so your supervisors could watch them play and they could trouble shoot it could save some real money. Even if all you can get them to do is let you have 1 hour meeting in their office you could ask them about any of the finer points you are worried about.

I think it shouldn't be too bad to find someone willing to give a night to help you out. If you have any sponsors you could even mention their place of employmentas a sponsor. I bet most of them who are salaried could sell that to their boss and they could donate a full day without taking vacation.

Quote: Riva

I have already stated that my clock could be jilted--but not by that much. It's been 3 years but I'm not off by more than 5 minutes max.
...
Dealer collusion? NOT!!

In that case, go to the wheel, place your chips on the layout according to the pattern you observed, spin the ball as the croupier was doing, wait for it to land, then ignore the actual result entirely and put your dolly on the location of one of the winning bets. Follow the standard take/pay procedures. Repeat for the amount of time you recall the man playing.

When you're done, you will either have more than $5000 or you won't. If you don't, the dealer was absolutely in on it.

Quote: Tomspur

B) Don't EVER get balls from an outside source. Get your own balls, test them, secure them and use them. If you want to I can give you the name of a great supplier in Missouri. PM me if you are interested. Also all equipment should be tested before the start of your events.

You mean, like these?
http://stealinglasvegas.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/the-magnetic-roulette-ball/

Quote: Tomspur

I don't think an electromagnet was used because it would require a current would it not? The wheel doesn't get plugged in anywhere and also would the supplier risk having a small battery or some other current producing device inside the wheel? I'm not sure. Also to produce a current for at least the time from when the wheel left the facility to the time that the scam happens.......I'm no expert but that had to have been quite a large battery?

An electromagnet and a radio controlled switch could be run off a small battery (watch, hearing aid, or model helicopter). Source: I'm a science nerd and have done so. Not a particularly cheap thing to set up (depending on a variety of factors) but if the rental place or someone working them was in on it it would be well worth it.

However, I do echo all 3 of Tomspur's recommendations.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You came and asked for help. You are now ignoring the help and sticking to your impossible theory.

Enjoy getting cleaned out again next time. I'm sure that they will be smarter and have enough people to carry the chips out $500 at a time.

OK Axiom..oh wise one...please tell me then what came down? If my clock was off, so what! We opened at 7:00 and by 8:00 PM this guy was at the table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips. Ive been volunteering at this gig for 15 years and NOBODY has ever come to the cashier's table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips, let alone 5 grand worth of chips after the first hour--half of which time that was spent bitching with the event manager and cops how he was being screwed by the $500 cap. So far, all that you have told me that I have a bad clock.

Quote: endermike

An electromagnet and a radio controlled switch could be run off a small battery (watch, hearing aid, or model helicopter). Source: I'm a science nerd and have done so. Not a particularly cheap thing to set up (depending on a variety of factors) but if the rental place or someone working them was in on it it would be well worth it.

However, I do echo all 3 of Tomspur's recommendations.

I will defer to your scientific expertise as I have none :)

Quote: Riva

OK Axiom..oh wise one...please tell me then what came down? If my clock was off, so what! We opened at 7:00 and by 8:00 PM this guy was at the table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips. Ive been volunteering at this gig for 15 years and NOBODY has ever come to the cashier's table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips, let alone 5 grand worth of chips after the first hour--half of which time that was spent bitching with the event manager and cops how he was being screwed by the $500 cap. So far, all that you have told me that I have a bad clock.

Riva, they are harping on the time because it is important. Just like a magician that has you looking one way and does something out of site. You are concentrating on the wheel and the ball but you are ignoring all other options. You also say there is no way the dealer was in on it but how can you be sure. Just because you know them doesn't mean they won't screw you. It happens everyday.

If you say it was definitely 30 min or so and it has been proved to you that it is not possible to win 5k in that time at these stakes then it must be something other than just the wheel.

Maybe it is a combination of things?

Stupid regulations to limit wins but allow for a biased wheel to be used.

Quote: Riva

OK Axiom..oh wise one...please tell me then what came down? If my clock was off, so what! We opened at 7:00 and by 8:00 PM this guy was at the table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips. Ive been volunteering at this gig for 15 years and NOBODY has ever come to the cashier's table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips, let alone 5 grand worth of chips after the first hour--half of which time that was spent bitching with the event manager and cops how he was being screwed by the $500 cap. So far, all that you have told me that I have a bad clock.

It's very difficult to tell what happened since your story changes every time you tell it.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

It's very difficult to tell what happened since your story changes every time you tell it.

I'm only here to learn, not to be chastised. I volunteer for a great non-profit and myself, and a few other people, are the only ones who realize that many of our "guests" do not come in with our best intentions in mind. We do not mind losing at a game of chance. Gambling is a risk venture for all parties. It is the cheaters that I must protect the house against. We're not a casino and, as a mostly volunteer, unskilled, untrained workforce, we are gigantically vulnerable. I'm not here to argue and/or be recalcitrant, but simply look for good, solid information that will help me/us protect us from cheaters. Thanks

Quote: Tomspur

So we are looking at this thing from a few perspectives.

1) The time and amounts could be under scrutiny. I think the amount could be accurate but the time is definitely a little off. (One ties into the other obviously)
2) How was the wheel rigged (if it was rigged)? Biased wheel will give you a sector and even then, the canoes will deflect some of the balls so you could still have a random section or three thrown in there. If the wheel was rigged it more than likely was done in such a way that the supplier could make absolutely 100% sure that the balls (which they supplied *sweeping facepalm*) were going to land in the correct spots all the time.
3) Lets look at collusion. If indeed the dealer was crooked, why would he pass out chips to the player over the $500 limit UNLESS he informed him somewhere along the line (most probably long before the event even started) that he would need to pass off the winnings to confederates or to unsuspecting players with the promise of a $20 pay day........This doesn't appear to have happened.

Let us take my opinions and suggestions and list them under the same numbers as above.

1) It is possible that the time was not accurate and that this person spent perhaps 30 to 45 minutes at the game. It couldn't have been much longer than 45 minutes otherwise more people would have noticed (imo). What could he have won in 45 minutes on a wheel that he couldn't lose on? $365*20 spins = $7300 (worst or best case scenario, depending on your point of view). If you magnetise ONLY the 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29 and 32 you make sure that there is a large enough number spread not to draw too much heat and you have numbers that the player can bet "maximum" on each spin. Let's look at him only being there for 30-minutes hitting every number every time. $365*15 = $5,475 (probably a little more accurate). This would also mean that there had to be at least 5 fills during his play unless the cage decided to increase the par float because of the amount of the winnings).
2) I don't think an electromagnet was used because it would require a current would it not? The wheel doesn't get plugged in anywhere and also would the supplier risk having a small battery or some other current producing device inside the wheel? I'm not sure. Also to produce a current for at least the time from when the wheel left the facility to the time that the scam happens.......I'm no expert but that had to have been quite a large battery? I think a much more plausable version is that the balls were magnetised along with the number slots. Even if he only hit about 80% of the time, it would still give him an opportunity to hit close to the $5k mark IF the time was off......which we have flogged enough now methinks!
3) I don't think the staff were involved at all because there are too many holes in the story UNLESS the magician got spooked and didn't follow through with the plan as explained. Still, when you are trying to perpetrate a scam, you attempt to involve as few people as possible. Also, depending on how Riva and her team does the scheduling, the dealers don't know which tables they will be dealing at until they arrive........

Riva, here are my suggestions:

A) Don't hire form that schmuck again, which you obviously will not.
B) Don't EVER get balls from an outside source. Get your own balls, test them, secure them and use them. If you want to I can give you the name of a great supplier in Missouri. PM me if you are interested. Also all equipment should be tested before the start of your events.
C) Before starting each event, tell you staff that, due to new gaming regulations, you will have a plain clothes agent from the gaming division at the event watching over the night. You don't even know what he looks like but if he sees anything untoward, the night will be stopped and legal action will be taken where appropriate.

I wish you good luck and keep up the good, charitable work!

Perhaps the best post of the tread. Thank you Tomspur.

Quote: Riva

I have already stated that my clock could be jilted--but not by that much. It's been 3 years but I'm not off by more than 5 minutes max.

If you are going to stand firm on the 15 minutes +/- 5 minutes, then I have to agree with AxiomOfChoice. Given the parameters of $5 bets, it's just not possible to win that much money, even if you win EVERY SPIN because you know where the ball is landing.

Quote: Riva

OK Axiom..oh wise one...please tell me then what came down? If my clock was off, so what! We opened at 7:00 and by 8:00 PM this guy was at the table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips. Ive been volunteering at this gig for 15 years and NOBODY has ever come to the cashier's table trying to cash in 5 grand worth of chips, let alone 5 grand worth of chips after the first hour--half of which time that was spent bitching with the event manager and cops how he was being screwed by the $500 cap. So far, all that you have told me that I have a bad clock.

Not at all. What he's told you (and what I've told you as well) is that if your clock is *not* bad, your dealer must have been in on the scam. Even though you don't want to believe that because you know/trust the guy. It is not possible for someone to legitimately win $5000 in chips in 30 minutes at a $5 roulette table, just like it's not possible to win $5000 in 30 minutes at a $5 blackjack table. The game simply doesn't move that fast.

I know everybody thinks the croupier was in on the action, but the more I think about it, I don't think it's possible

Croupier seems to be trusted by Riva, which probably means he was at many events and would have most certainly known about the $500 max payout. If croupier is working an inside job, why wouldn't he have multiple guys come in and run the scam for $500 each? or why wouldn't he at least tell the magician you need an accomplice or two with you to dump chips and cash out separately?

And Riva also points out that after a while everyone is now watching the table. Nobody else in the crowd of bystanders saw the dealer overpaying? Unlikely.

Quote: Beardgoat

I know everybody thinks the croupier was in on the action, but the more I think about it, I don't think it's possible

Croupier seems to be trusted by Riva, which probably means he was at many events and would have most certainly known about the $500 max payout. If croupier is working an inside job, why wouldn't he have multiple guys come in and run the scam for $500 each? or why wouldn't he at least tell the magician you need an accomplice or two with you to dump chips and cash out separately?

And Riva also points out that after a while everyone is now watching the table. Nobody else in the crowd of bystanders saw the dealer overpaying? Unlikely.

This is why I think the most likely scenario is that something else was going on besides what we've been told here. In other words, both the guy's play and the ruckus he made upon cashing out were calculated diversions. For what, I don't know. But no slick con artist who bothers to set up a gaffed wheel is going to conveniently ignore the $500 max cashout signs. He called the cops when he could have used accomplices to structure the payouts and walk out without the scuffle but with $5000. No, something is fishy and it's not just the roulette game.

Riva, did he leave with the chips that he didn't cash? If he did, there's your answer.

Oh my.

Well this one took awhile to shine it's ugly face...

You're going to need Holmes, the good Doctor, and a time machine for this one folks. Sounds like time has faded memory and pipped this all up to mythical legend status. Further investigation would be merely for the sake of continued awe on what is an interesting "story" who's details will never be fully realized.

Quote: Riva

I'm only here to learn, not to be chastised. I volunteer for a great non-profit and myself, and a few other people, are the only ones who realize that many of our "guests" do not come in with our best intentions in mind. We do not mind losing at a game of chance. Gambling is a risk venture for all parties. It is the cheaters that I must protect the house against. We're not a casino and, as a mostly volunteer, unskilled, untrained workforce, we are gigantically vulnerable. I'm not here to argue and/or be recalcitrant, but simply look for good, solid information that will help me/us protect us from cheaters. Thanks

Here is some good solid information:

It is not possible to win that much money in that short of an amount of time with a max $5 bet. It just isn't; there aren't enough spins. It's not even close; I am not arguing about the difference between 15 minutes and 20 minutes; I'm arguing about the difference between 15 minutes and a couple of hours.

Therefore, you were cheated some other way. You can exclude your "biased wheel" hypothesis and start looking at other possibilities.

That is a fact, and it's as solid as it gets. The numbers do not lie. The following information is less solid, because it is just a hypothesis:

You said that you heard that the guy was a magician. This may very well be true. You also said that he was kind of funny looking, and was strangely dressed. IMO this was most likely intentional. This tells me that he probably wants you to be looking at him, which means that someone else was probably doing the cheating for him. You said it yourself -- all eyes were on him. Magicians are very good at making sure that "all eyes" are exactly where they want them to be. I am neither a cheat nor a magician, so I don't know what could have been going on while everyone else was looking at him, but I'd start there if I were you.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You said that you heard that the guy was a magician. This may very well be true. You also said that he was kind of funny looking, and was strangely dressed. IMO this was most likely intentional. This tells me that he probably wants you to be looking at him, which means that someone else was probably doing the cheating for him. You said it yourself -- all eyes were on him. Magicians are very good at making sure that "all eyes" are exactly where they want them to be. I am neither a cheat nor a magician, so I don't know what could have been going on while everyone else was looking at him, but I'd start there if I were you.

I think the bigger red flag was not what was happening at the roulette table, but what happened afterwards at the cage (or cashout table). There is, in my estimation, no other reason for causing a commotion so significant as to warrant the presence of law enforcement other than to draw everyone's attention away from the rest of the gaming floor. Mr. Magician intentionally caused the distraction and made everyone stop noticing whatever else was going on. Like the dealer reaching in and swapping out the gaffed roulette ball for a fair one. I presume there were no other strange events that night and the roulette game behaved normally after Mr. Magician left. This would explain why.

Is it not so that without proper evidence, all assumptions introduce possibilities for error....If an assumption does not improve the accuracy of a theory then all it does do is to increase the probability that the whole theory or theories are wrong?

So, let's all remember Occam's razor and put this one to bed......"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever else remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

.....Unless Riva can supply us with other information that will lead us to make more accurate accounts of the happenings of that evening!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Here is some good solid information:

It is not possible to win that much money in that short of an amount of time with a max $5 bet. It just isn't; there aren't enough spins. It's not even close; I am not arguing about the difference between 15 minutes and 20 minutes; I'm arguing about the difference between 15 minutes and a couple of hours.

Therefore, you were cheated some other way. You can exclude your "biased wheel" hypothesis and start looking at other possibilities.

That is a fact, and it's as solid as it gets. The numbers do not lie. The following information is less solid, because it is just a hypothesis:

You said that you heard that the guy was a magician. This may very well be true. You also said that he was kind of funny looking, and was strangely dressed. IMO this was most likely intentional. This tells me that he probably wants you to be looking at him, which means that someone else was probably doing the cheating for him. You said it yourself -- all eyes were on him. Magicians are very good at making sure that "all eyes" are exactly where they want them to be. I am neither a cheat nor a magician, so I don't know what could have been going on while everyone else was looking at him, but I'd start there if I were you.

Axiom.. I get the clock/math..you win!

The guy was strange. Perhaps 6'4" 200 lbs. Had pants on that should be on somebody that weighed in at 170. I mean way too tight..aka "skinny pants". Plus is was stupid looking, especially with that hat. In some ways, he looked like "big bird". (sorry, not kind)

However, as far as him being a diversion..he absolutely, positively was the only person at the table for the entire time he was in the room. Even though I was setting up the craps table at the time, I am constantly looking around the room. When the first person entering the room for the night comes in, especially somebody that looks likes an ostrich, dressed in gigantically overly-tight pants and undersized vest and, wearing a checkered Frank Sinatra hat, I take notice. At the time. I was not so much worried that he was a cheater as I was that he could be Charles Manson! Seriously, he was THAT strange/goofy looking. That said, he was, 100% of the time, the ONLY person at that roulette table for the time he played there. I was, at best, 20' away and once alerted to the chip loss scenario, my eyes were on this jackass like a hawk--all this, knowing we still had the $500 cap firewall! Please help me plug this damn so it can't happen again at our event again. That's my only mission here! I'm not here to argue.

An answer if you would please...

Quote: endermike

Riva, did he leave with the chips that he didn't cash? If he did, there's your answer.

Quote: endermike

An answer if you would please...

Answer: YES.

Like 100% of our players, they must stand in line and dump their chips to a cashier at the cashier's table be counted out. For some, they only have a handful of chips. For some others, the have their chips in a 1, 2 or 3, 32-ounce beer cups that we provide. And, for others...the really lucky ones, they have their chips in some theater-size popcorn tubs that we also provide.

In this case, the guy came to the cashier's table with, at least, 2 popcorn tubs of chips to be changed out in to real money. More realistically, probably 4 or 5 popcorn tubs, because we do not have a big inventory of $10 chips.

Did he leave with the chips that he didn't cash? Answer: NO!
The cashier counted all the chips, put them in to trays and told him "$500." We were, by that time, on def-con 5 because we knew he was probably going to go nuclear, which he did. So much so that the cops had to come over to sniff. After several minutes of "negotiations", with the police being present, he took his $500 while shouting f-bombs the entire way out of the room. Bottom line..the bank was in balance at the end of the night--and we made a profit!

you stated that you pay a max win of $500. does that mean the most you can cash out is $500? meaning if you buy in for $100, the most you can win is $400?

so this guy only got a profit of $400?

Quote: sodawater

you stated that you pay a max win of $500. does that mean the most you can cash out is $500? meaning if you buy in for $100, the most you can win is $400?

so this guy only got a profit of $400?

I believe and I may be wrong here, that she said he had bought in for approx $300? This could make it even worse I agree.

Quote: Tomspur

I believe and I may be wrong here, that she said he had bought in for approx $300? This could make it even worse I agree.

Point of order: Riva, are you male or female? Weird question to ask, I know, but both pronouns are being thrown around in this thread. I mean no disrespect.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Point of order: Riva, are you male or female? Weird question to ask, I know, but both pronouns are being thrown around in this thread. I mean no disrespect.

That's funny, because I've been asking myself the same question throughout this entire thread. I know that "Reva" is a female name, but people have continually referred to Riva as a "him", yet they haven't been corrected. *shrug*


Reminds me of the SNL skit with Pat...lol

Quote: Riva

Axiom.. I get the clock/math..you win!

The guy was strange. Perhaps 6'4" 200 lbs. Had pants on that should be on somebody that weighed in at 170. I mean way too tight..aka "skinny pants". Plus is was stupid looking, especially with that hat. In some ways, he looked like "big bird". (sorry, not kind)

However, as far as him being a diversion..he absolutely, positively was the only person at the table for the entire time he was in the room. Even though I was setting up the craps table at the time, I am constantly looking around the room. When the first person entering the room for the night comes in, especially somebody that looks likes an ostrich, dressed in gigantically overly-tight pants and undersized vest and, wearing a checkered Frank Sinatra hat, I take notice. At the time. I was not so much worried that he was a cheater as I was that he could be Charles Manson! Seriously, he was THAT strange/goofy looking. That said, he was, 100% of the time, the ONLY person at that roulette table for the time he played there. I was, at best, 20' away and once alerted to the chip loss scenario, my eyes were on this jackass like a hawk--all this, knowing we still had the $500 cap firewall! Please help me plug this damn so it can't happen again at our event again. That's my only mission here! I'm not here to argue.

So do you accept the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win 5k?, even with magnets and the ball landing on the same exact spot every time, betting all the surrounding numbers, while betting $5 chips? Only after you accept that fact can anyone help you.

On one hand, you say the dealers really have no clue about dealing and gambling. You used this as a defense as to why no one noticed this extremely rare event. Bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay. bet and pay, bet and pay Bet and pay, bet and pay, table Fill, bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay Bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay, crowd all eyes on him Bet and pay, bet and pay, bet and pay.

Then you said the dealer is a good dealer? You seem to know him well, Yet he let that happen? He didn't even tell the guy about the 500 max.

You just seem so hell bent on proving that you and your operation, or anyone working for your company can be to blame in any way shape or form. You don't seem to want to know the truth, you just want to know HOW TO explain to someone, that someone outside your operation, in fact went to great lengths to cheat you, even if they really didn't. (yep, yep this is what happened case solved guys, move along, nothing here to see)

There is NO WAY in hell, anyone went through the trouble of a complicated cheating scheme and didn't know about the $500 max. On top of that they made a big stink?

The real cheating was going on some other place and you lost way more then $500 bucks and don't even know it. The accidentally on purpose fake text was sent, just to make you concentrate on the rigged Roulette wheel.

You don't want to admit all of this because that might mean there is a hole in YOUR operation that you cant understand and explain.

PS. You were watching him as he keeps wining? You knew he had a $500 cap, so if he wins you don't have to pay him, if he loses you keep the winnings. NOW THAT'S SLEAZY