Pai Gow Tiles Wizard Game Possible Errors?

Hello all,

I've been playing the Pai Gow Tiles simulator on wizardofodds.com and I've been trying to learn the optimal strategy to play against the Traditional Way and Foxwood House Way. I get error messages that I'm playing a hand 'wrong' quite often when I seem to be following the proper strategy outlined to play against House Strategy or Foxwoods. Either something is wrong with the software or I'm not understanding something about how to play or follow the proper basic strategy outlined.

Here's an example:



This hand is a 13 point hand with a choice between playing a 6/7 or a 4/9 (1/2 is discarded). According to wizard strategy the rankings for 13 point hands are:

1. 2/wong
2. 6/7
3. 3/low 8 gong
4. 4/high 9
5. 3/high 8 gong
6. 5/8
7. 4/9

Thus option two should be a superior play versus option 7. The software rejects this play as not being optimal. So which way is the 'correct' way to play? Is the variance between these plays significant or infinitesimal?

It's frustrating to run in to these conflicts when trying to learn not only the game but the proper strategy.

As a side question. What exactly is the definition of a 'HIGH 9' hand versus a '9' and how does one dertermin other 'HIGH' hands?

Thanks as always to the Wizard. I work in a casino and I refer my customers to wizardofodds.com religiously

Uncle Mo.

The game is not making an error. The game uses true optimal strategy, not a point-system for ease of use.

You can go to https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-tiles/calculator/ to see for yourself.

I saved you the trouble. 4/9 is the correct way.



Also, note that the game uses a "single strategy" when the box is ticked, which means it assumes you are banking half the time and playing half the time, regardless of who is banking in the game. Some optimal plays differ from the calculator due to that.

Quote: UncleMo

As a side question. What exactly is the definition of a 'HIGH 9' hand versus a '9' and how does one dertermin other 'HIGH' hands?
.

A "high 9" is a 9 with a teen or a day tile.

I am relatively new to PaiGowTiles strategy, so take this with a grain of salt. There is more to it than just the numerical ranking for optimal play. In the particular hand shown, there is an opportunity to put the 12 tile together with a 7-8-9 tile (in this case the 7), so I think the strategy teacher is trying to push you into doing that, regardless of the point count. I could be wrong.

Charliepatrick, can you discuss this for him (and for me), please?

Quote: beachbumbabs

I am relatively new to PaiGowTiles strategy, so take this with a grain of salt. There is more to it than just the numerical ranking for optimal play. In the particular hand shown, there is an opportunity to put the 12 tile together with a 7-8-9 tile (in this case the 7), so I think the strategy teacher is trying to push you into doing that, regardless of the point count. I could be wrong.

The WoO PG tiles game doesn't care about putting 12s with 7, 8, or 9. It simply recommends the optimal play based on every possible combination of tiles. In this case, it's just that the 4/9 is a much better play than the 6/7. If I had to explain "why," it's because the 4/9 is splitting up your two strong tiles so that one is in each hand. But that's just something for a human to make a narrative out of. PG tiles contain a lot of very unintuitive optimal splits that seem to defy explanation.

Quote: sodawater

The game is not making an error. The game uses true optimal strategy, not a point-system for ease of use.

You can go toto see for yourself.

I saved you the trouble. 4/9 is the correct way.



Also, note that the game uses a "single strategy" when the box is ticked, which means it assumes you are banking half the time and playing half the time, regardless of who is banking in the game. Some optimal plays differ from the calculator due to that.

Thanks for posting that! I'm having JAVA problems running this calculator that I need to resolve. Security settings are blocking the calculator from working. I'm not sure which settings to change in order to run this calculator. Running Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit if anyone has an idea. I fixed it.

The difference in variance between the 4/9 and 6/7 play seems very small to me. Even though playing 6/7 is not the most optimal play, is it really that horrible a play?

Quote: UncleMo

The difference in variance between the 4/9 and 6/7 play seems very small to me. Even though playing 6/7 is not the most optimal play, is it really that horrible a play?

Well if you bet $100 and set it 4/9 your expected loss is about six bucks. If you set it 6/7 your expected loss is about ten bucks. So yeah that would be a pretty costly error.

Quote: sodawater

Well if you bet $100 and set it 4/9 your expected loss is about six bucks. If you set it 6/7 your expected loss is about ten bucks. So yeah that would be a pretty costly error.

Ahh. I was reading the chart wrong. That makes perfect sense.

Sincere thanks to all for the replies! This round-eye is going to play this game one day when I build up the courage.

If anyone wants to recommend a good place to give it a try in Las Vegas I would be appreciative.

Pai Gow Tiles have set rules of which hands to play (house ways). The rules come down from high to low. You play Gee Jun then you play the wongs, gongs and whatever else there is (can't remember the name), then you play pairs, lastly you will "middle" which is what you tried to do in your example above. Middling is when you try to make your top and bottom hand equally as strong (read 6/7).

It isn't an easy game to learn as the terms can be a little foreign for us "round eyes" :), but once you get the hang of it, it really can be fun.

Quote: Tomspur

Pai Gow Tiles have set rules of which hands to play (house ways). The rules come down from high to low. You play Gee Jun then you play the wongs, gongs and whatever else there is (can't remember the name), then you play pairs, lastly you will "middle" which is what you tried to do in your example above. Middling is when you try to make your top and bottom hand equally as strong (read 6/7).

It isn't an easy game to learn as the terms can be a little foreign for us "round eyes" :), but once you get the hang of it, it really can be fun.

Almost everything in this post is incorrect

Quote: sodawater

Almost everything in this post is incorrect

How so?

Quote: Tomspur

How so?

Maybe what I got wrong was that I was thinking about the strength of the tile pairings instead of the actual hand rankings?

They are gee-joon, teen, day, high 8, high 4 and then the pairs.

Wong, gong and high 9 are hand rankings.

Sorry if I didn't state my intended argument correctly. I shouldn't have commented had I not known 100% of what I spoke...

The strategy at discountgambling.net is starting to click with me. I'm doing well with it so far.


I'll keep practicing and hopefully be ready for a Vegas trip.

I play at the Rio. The dealers are very friendly. If I am playing one on one against them, which often happens on off hours, I will hand the dealer my 4th tile, and see if he can 'come through for me' and match the one of 3 tiles I show! Of course I know it doesn't change anything, but it is a lot of fun! As I mentioned a couple years back, after playing many hours at $25, the supervisor who was chatty, gave me a free set of tiles! The only negative, of course, is that playing at the Rio will net you very low comps, my last trip I am guessing I accumulated less than a dollar an hour playing $25 pai gow tiles. And welcome to the fun game of pai Gow Tiles!

Thanks for that information SooPoo. That seems like a low comp rate unless of course you were flat-betting the whole time. I would think a betting range from $25 to $100 with an average of $50 should generate semi-decent comps. I plan on going to Vegas during a Sunday through Wednesday so I'm thinking it should be possible to find an empty Tiles table to get started on (and bank of course).

Any more information on where to play is appreciated.

Quote: UncleMo

Thanks for that information SooPoo. That seems like a low comp rate unless of course you were flat-betting the whole time. I would think a betting range from $25 to $100 with an average of $50 should generate semi-decent comps. I plan on going to Vegas during a Sunday through Wednesday so I'm thinking it should be possible to find an empty Tiles table to get started on (and bank of course).

Any more information on where to play is appreciated.

I basically flat bet. I would guess my average is around $27, as occasionally I go to $30, and only rarely higher. If you are in Vegas around the WoV 'convention' I would love to play tiles with you. Its April 26.

Quote: Tomspur

How so?

Well it just doesn't make any sense.

Quote: Tomspur

Pai Gow Tiles have set rules of which hands to play (house ways).

Yes, casinos have house ways their dealers have to play. Just like casinos have house ways for their blackjack dealers. Your sentence seems to imply that the players must or should parrot the house way, which is very wrong.

Quote: Tomspur

The rules come down from high to low.

I do not know what this means.

Quote: Tomspur

You play Gee Jun then you play the wongs, gongs and whatever else there is (can't remember the name), then you play pairs

Gee Joon is the highest pair, then the rest of the pairs, then wongs and gongs, in hand rankings. There are no other names. Your sentence seems to imply that players should play these hands in that order, which is wrong. The Gee Joon pair is often split up and not played, as are all the pairs except for 10s, 11s, and 4s. Lots of times you will have a wong or gong possible and not play it.

Quote: Tomspur

Lastly you will "middle" which is what you tried to do in your example above. Middling is when you try to make your top and bottom hand equally as strong (read 6/7).

Often times you will try to maximize your low hand in setting your hands, yes, but it's not considered an inferior option to playing a pair, wong or gong. For example if you got dealt low 2, high 8, low 8, and 4, you should play 6/6 even though two different gongs are possible.

Quote: Tomspur

It isn't an easy game to learn as the terms can be a little foreign for us "round eyes" :), but once you get the hang of it, it really can be fun.

I do agree with this!

Quote: Tomspur

Maybe what I got wrong was that I was thinking about the strength of the tile pairings instead of the actual hand rankings?

They are gee-joon, teen, day, high 8, high 4 and then the pairs.

Wong, gong and high 9 are hand rankings.

Sorry if I didn't state my intended argument correctly. I shouldn't have commented had I not known 100% of what I spoke...

No need to apologize. It definitely takes longer to be familiar with the game. I was a PG tiles beginner less than two years ago and I am sure my posts were even less coherent.

Quote: UncleMo

The strategy at discountgambling.net is starting to click with me. I'm doing well with it so far.

http://discountgambling.net/pai-gow-tiles/

I'll keep practicing and hopefully be ready for a Vegas trip.

Quote: discountgambling.net

Eventually, there comes a time when you’ve played just about everything in a casino

This is exactly why I started playing pai gow tiles.

Tiles was actually the first game I learned to play; even before blackjack and video poker. The Wizard just spoke so highly about it on his site.