odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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March 30th, 2010 at 3:00:30 AM permalink
In another thread there have been a couple of suggestions that casinos bring in "coolers" or even agitators to help them sweat the money at a hot Craps Table. Reading between the lines, these posters seem to suggest it could even be collusion to cheat them outright somehow.

I admit I never have suspected this, but may just not have played enough to see it. The most memorable hot table for me involved a novice, a young lady, [yep, supports the superstition], who actually just arrived and was exhausted and begged to be allowed to leave, but who absolutely could *not* roll a seven against a point for the longest. Naturally everyone else begged her to continue. It was the first time I ever cleaned up at craps. Yet I didnt see anything odd going on in the way of sweating the money.

I've seen gamblers show up when the table got hot alright, but it just looked to me like players who sat back and waited for hot tables. I can see them getting the blame for the table cooling off when it was just something that would happen naturally.

I'd like to hear what it is folks here have seen when it comes to what the casino really does to sweat the money.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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March 30th, 2010 at 7:27:44 AM permalink
Oh the stories I could tell.......
The story I related in the other thread regarding the Bahama's casino, I will go to my grave believing they were shills for the casino. I suppose they could have just been terrible craps players with a complete lack of understanding of flow and continuity, but I choose to believe in conspiracy, and I will not let facts interfere with that belief.

I was playing in Tunica last year on a choppy table and my buddy on my right gets the dice, and announces to me he is going to roll for 30 minutes. We laughed, but unbelievably he came up just a couple of minutes short. The gent between us passed and as the dice came to me, my buddy said he got his 30 minutes and I needed to roll for an hour. By the time I had rolled for 40 minutes the table had become packed, and at the other end of the table they were betting all kinds of weird center table bets, and people were hopping bets like crazy. By the time I hit one hour, it was taking the dealers 2-3 minutes to figure out the payouts every time. I was in the zone and was completely unaffected by the confusion, but the guy standing next to me was furious. He kept saying how those guys were making the hop bets and then arguing about the payoffs just to cool me off (and they were $1-$4 piddly bets). Funny thing was, he was probably doing more to mess up my zone then the other end of the table. At one point he yells at 2 guys on the other end, and tells them since they were only betting $1 and $2 hops, he would give them each $100 if they would just leave. It was so comical. I 7'd out at 1 hr 10 min.

My point to the story?
I did not feel the guys making the center table bets and the hop bets were there to cool my buddy or me off, BUT, I can guarantee you the gent next to me was very positive that was exactly what they were called in to do. Perhaps the fact that I was up $4k, while he said he got a lot back but was still stuck for $2k after my roll, had a bearing on our perceptions.

And now for Paul Harvey's "The Rest of The Story".
After I outed, the dice went to the other end of the table, where each person in turn announced "pass", until the whole table had passed the dice back to me. Alas, it was not to be. I made one point very quickly but then 7'd out within a couple of rolls. So much for the hot hand.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
jeremykay
jeremykay
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
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March 30th, 2010 at 7:42:55 AM permalink
Players are superstitious, and sometimes even dealers... but definitely not casino management. Anyone operating a casino who believes in such nonsense wouldn't last long in the business. There is no amount of unlucky or rude people the casino can throw at a table that will affect the outcome of the dice. The fact is that there will always be occasional strings of good luck for players, and casinos know this. They're in it for the long haul however! There are going to be more strings of bad luck than good and they win out in the end. In fact, I'd imagine casinos like it when there are awesome runs at craps tables and when people hit big jackpots at the slots. This keeps the players coming in the doors.
Nareed
Nareed
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March 30th, 2010 at 7:49:45 AM permalink
I usggest going online to Scientific American. There look up Shermer's (The Skeptic) column and try to find two particular ones: Patternicity and Agenticity.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
boymimbo
boymimbo
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March 30th, 2010 at 8:36:33 AM permalink
Quote: jeremykay

Players are superstitious, and sometimes even dealers... but definitely not casino management. Anyone operating a casino who believes in such nonsense wouldn't last long in the business. There is no amount of unlucky or rude people the casino can throw at a table that will affect the outcome of the dice. The fact is that there will always be occasional strings of good luck for players, and casinos know this. They're in it for the long haul however! There are going to be more strings of bad luck than good and they win out in the end. In fact, I'd imagine casinos like it when there are awesome runs at craps tables and when people hit big jackpots at the slots. This keeps the players coming in the doors.



At the top level of casino management, all of the numbers for each table will indeed aggregate into a financial result which will show typical win volumes with variances for the large betters and whales. As you get into lower levels (financial analysts) and lower levels (floor bosses, pit supervisors, and dealers), you will find those who believe in streaks and will indeed sweat the money, believing that a series of losses or low performance (due to a lucky streak) will lead into their layoff.

For dealers themselves, you will find that some are happy that you are winning, as long as they are being tipped. Some dealers probably believe that the tips they are receiving do not warrant good service so they may root for the house as well and in effect disrupt purposefully the flow of the game in order to perhaps please the pit who may be also "sweating the money".

IMHO, where the market exists, people will go to an establishment where the dealers are friendly, the game is fair, the drinks are flowing, and the casino doesn't sweat the money.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
cclub79
cclub79
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March 30th, 2010 at 8:38:55 AM permalink
I agree with Jeremy. There couldn't be a casino that justifies a budget line-item for "Cooling down hot Craps tables because if we get a shill to throw money down mid-roll a 7-out is more likely." Unless some of our favorite posters on our favorite threads (!) owned a casino.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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March 30th, 2010 at 8:58:10 AM permalink
My wife made a claim, on our last stay, that casinos enticed "hot woman" to play at the casino to make the casino more profitable. I put that remark in the same category as casinos pumping in oxygen, loading the dice to throw more sevens, and the shuffler fixing the cards to give you losing hands ad nauseum.

I too doubt that there is a budget line item for "craps table cooler" personnel, though there may be plain clothes security on site to look for scammers and cheats... maybe another one of their "other duties as assigned" is to cool down the craps table (LOL).
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Nareed
Nareed
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March 30th, 2010 at 9:12:09 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

My wife made a claim, on our last stay, that casinos enticed "hot woman" to play at the casino to make the casino more profitable.



That one makes sense. But it overlooks the presence of attractive cocktail waitresses in skimpy outfits throughout all casinos, not to mention the lingerie pits in many casinos.

Quote: boymimbo

I too doubt that there is a budget line item for "craps table cooler" personnel, though



Yeah, but wouldn't that be a great job to have?

Hmm. I wonder if I can come up with a story about a casino where all the myths are real ;)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 30th, 2010 at 9:36:51 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

My wife made a claim, on our last stay, that casinos enticed "hot woman" to play at the casino to make the casino more profitable. I put that remark in the same category as casinos pumping in oxygen, loading the dice to throw more sevens, and the shuffler fixing the cards to give you losing hands ad nauseum.



There is a story online at dicedealer which says back in the day (1970s?) their craps crew hired a hooker in a low cut top to play so as to attract lots of big-player guys over to their table. If tips went crew-for-crew I could easily see a smart crew doing that. But not casino management.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
konceptum
konceptum
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
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March 31st, 2010 at 12:52:50 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

There is a story online at dicedealer which says back in the day (1970s?) their craps crew hired a hooker in a low cut top to play so as to attract lots of big-player guys over to their table.



I really don't want to hijack the thread, but I do have a quick question for people somewhat in regards to this.

I had read a story (don't remember where) about a scam that people did at a craps table. It involved an attractive woman, who pretended to not quite know how to play, and a male partner, usually on the other end of the table. When she was rolling, the man would throw her chips, trying to entice "good luck" and get other people to throw her chips as well. At the same time, the man would take advantage of distractions to take other peoples' chips off the rail.

I don't know whether or not to believe this, however, I do have to admit to being a bit nervous when some attractive (or even plain) woman comes and stands next to me, and starts asking me all kinds of questions about the game, and what bets to make, and how do you throw the dice, and etc, etc.

I don't like making suggestions on what bets should be made anyway (for much the same reason I don't give advice on picking stocks), but does anybody else get nervous, worried, freaked out by this occurrence? (For women players, I suppose a nice looking man asking you questions would achieve the same nervousness.)

Recently at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas, I had this VERY attractive (and drunk) woman come stand next to me and ask about betting and rolling and etc, etc. On the one hand, she was very much appealing in the base shallow-male point of view. On the other hand, her presence and questions and flirting was very distracting, and made me nervous about what kind of scam might be perpetrating, that I eventually left the table and cashed out. Checking to make sure I wasn't followed. Silliness on my part?

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