Free Bet Blackjack - Updates
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIt's too bad that Free Bet BJ didn't survive with good rules, like BJ Switch did.
Because players might give more to the house on average with "Blackjack Switch" than "Free Bet Blackjack" (even with crappier rules) due to strategy errors. I hope Geoff infiltrates this game in "Pleasure Pits" all across Vegas and tons of regular tables too around the world. This is way better than 6:5 and should really appeal to the casual player!
Quote: THESWEENEYWhat is the house edge for the UK version, and the 22 side bet?
The UK version has a house edge of 0.73% and the '22' side bet has a house edge of 3.75%.
Quote: Buzzard... ... ...
Seriously, can I assume the same gold coin covers the players bet and tip ?
Yes, the 'Free Bet' coin will also be placed next to a dealer's tip as well.
Quote: ParadigmI vote for allowing Surrender but no re-split of Aces as the preferred version. It is the exception when you have a BJ table thal allow re-split of Aces, so that would play more like regular BJ.
Switch, does that get the house edge to 0.88%? With expected average player errors (i.e. players simply taking all the free doubles/splits, but missing the occasional double down opportunity and other common BS errors), what do you think the non-optimal play HE will be for an average player?
Yes, the house edge would be around 0.88% if you allowed surrender but not re-splitting of Aces. Actually quite a few casinos in Vegas offer re-split Aces so the idea is to let the casino match the exact Free bet rules to their regular Blackjack game.
I think that the non-optimal play would follow closely to regular Blackjack and maybe slightly higher. It really depends on what the non-optimal plays are. Not hitting 15's and 16's in a 'push 22' game will hurt the player far more than in a regular Blackjack game. However, not soft doubling or has a smaller effect in this game and the doubling and splitting should be much easier to follow as you should take all free bets.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAlso, I like blackjack switch a lot. I feel that the HE of 0.58% is reasonable, ... ... I would actually be interested to know how many mistakes I make and how much they cost me.
... ... ...It's too bad that Free Bet BJ didn't survive with good rules, like BJ Switch did.
Generally speaking, even a competent 'switcher' will still add around 0.2% to the base edge through close switching errors. Some of the changes to doubling and splitting, due to the 'push 22', will further add more to the bottom line.
At 0.79%, 'Free Bet' should actually produce similar hold figures to 'Switch' despite being a higher initial edge.
I played some Triple Attack Blackjack last night in order to get a feel for the game. The house edge on that game is over 1% and it uses Spanish decks as well as pushing on a 22. The players were being penalised so severely as they weren't playing anywhere near the correct strategy. Players were standing on 16's and not hitting 12's and 13's. Furthermore, the 'Attack' strategy was being played quite poorly as well adding even more to the initial house edge.
Conversely, 'Free Bet' will not require a complicated strategy and will allow novice players the opportunity to play much closer to the base edge.
Quote: tringlomaneBecause players might give more to the house on average with "Blackjack Switch" than "Free Bet Blackjack" (even with crappier rules) due to strategy errors. I hope Geoff infiltrates this game in "Pleasure Pits" all across Vegas and tons of regular tables too around the world. This is way better than 6:5 and should really appeal to the casual player!
Thanks tringlomane - not much I can add to that :-) except that one casino is actually looking at a single deck Free Bet 3/2 version which will incorporate the same rules as the multi-deck. It will certainly offer a much better deal than the 6/5 single deck and hopefully will appeal to casinos that wish to offer single deck but not at 6/5.
As long as 6/5 attracts players, it's not going anywhere. Any the royalty on 6/5 is ZERO.
But glad to see one casino is thinking about the player.
Quote: tringlomaneWould any other forum members would want to try out this game with me while I'm in town? (late Dec. 1st-early Dec. 5th) Also preferably when Geoff is at the table supervising since I would like to meet him as well? Given my current plans Tuesday Dec. 4th is the best day for me.
It still needs to get the final approval from Nevada Gaming before it can go live again. Unfortunately, the 4th will be close but I think it will be the 6th before it can be installed into The Mirage and Casino Royale.
However, I should be training at Casino Royale on the 4th so you are more than welcome to stop by and see the Free Bet training and meet up then.
His first sentence ended in Colorado, but that's all I remember. LOL
Had to keep Josie on a short leash. She loved his accent.
Quote: SwitchIt still needs to get the final approval from Nevada Gaming before it can go live again. Unfortunately, the 4th will be close but I think it will be the 6th before it can be installed into The Mirage and Casino Royale.
However, I should be training at Casino Royale on the 4th so you are more than welcome to stop by and see the Free Bet training and meet up then.
That would be fine with me, I don't have to play for "real", would I be able to be a player for "play money"? My g/f might really like that; she doesn't gamble much. :( Just let me know what times on the 4th are the best for you. Currently Tuesday is the one day the g/f and I have zero set plans, so I should be available to say hi.
Quote: Buzzardtringlomane : Just be forewarned that Switch does speak English. But it did take a a few sentences before I was able to comprehend.
His first sentence ended in Colorado, but that's all I remember. LOL
Had to keep Josie on a short leash. She loved his accent.
LOL...he doesn't have a Cockney accent or something right? :)
might call you " Duck" the same way an American might call someone love or dear. Switch and my friend both pronounce the
word duck in this way DOOK as in book. LOL
Quote: tringlomaneThat would be fine with me, I don't have to play for "real", would I be able to be a player for "play money"? My g/f might really like that; she doesn't gamble much. :( Just let me know what times on the 4th are the best for you. Currently Tuesday is the one day the g/f and I have zero set plans, so I should be available to say hi.
LOL...he doesn't have a Cockney accent or something right? :)
I'll see if I can get you and your g/f to join in with one of the training sessions - it should be ok. I can let you know what times I'll be there closer to the day (probably the day before).
I've been told that I don't have much of an English dialect - it's quite a neutral accent.
The only time I use the word 'duck' is if I'm ordering food (when it would be followed by L'Orange) or if I wanted Buzz to stoop down :-) ... I pronounce it in the same way as 'luck' ... I think Buzz had been drinking that night :-) hehe
Quote: SwitchI'll see if I can get you and your g/f to join in with one of the training sessions - it should be ok. I can let you know what times I'll be there closer to the day (probably the day before).
That would be great Geoff! Thanks a lot! Just let me know on here when you want us to come visit. :)
Many apologies for not posting my whereabouts on Tuesday but I had a lot of things that occurred with the final approval on the tweaks to free Bet Blackjack. With everything that went on that day I completely forgot to update where I would be. As a result, I'm not training at Casino Royale until earliest this Friday and Free Bet should (hopefully) be going live at Golden Nugget, The Mirage and Casino Royale on that night.
I hope your Vegas trip was successful and that maybe we will cross paths in vegas on our next visits.
First hand of the shoe - anyone want to join in mid-shoe? :-)
I don't know the Zen Count. Is that the one that counts 10s as -2 and aces as -1 in an attempt to bridge the gap between playing efficiency and betting efficiency? I'm guessing that 4s, 5s, and 6s are +2?
I think it's great that you are counting. I want to see them back you off of your own game :)
Quote: SwitchHow to push with a dealer 8-card total of 18 :-
First hand of the shoe - anyone want to join in mid-shoe? :-)
No... Dealer should have stood with Soft 18? (Card #4)
Quote: SwitchMirage should be installing it on the 27th or 28th. I didn't know that Casino Royale had installed it yet so I'm grateful for the info'. Did you notice if the game attracted any attention at CR?
I think three players were playing it. When I did my survey (8pm or so Friday night I passed through) there were 10 total BJ tables in the casino. Only five were open. Three Switch, one standard 4 deck and the Free Bet. If I recall correctly there were three people playing Free Bet though that was not the focus of my survey.
The game was $5-$100, used a CSM and paid 6-5 on blackjack. Golden Nugget and other places pay 3-2 on BJ don't they? Is this just because Casino Royale pays 6-5 on their standard BJ games?
Quote: Pokeraddict... ... ... Golden Nugget and other places pay 3-2 on BJ don't they? Is this just because Casino Royale pays 6-5 on their standard BJ games?
Yes & Yes. Thanks for the update.
Edit: not yet at mirage.
Just asking cause that gives the player 0.23%
Quote: brownlunchsackCasino royale also allows free double on first 2 cards only. Sad. Going right now to see if game is live at mirage yet.
Edit: not yet at mirage.
I think that they planned to open the game on the 27th or 28th so hopefully it will be soon.
Quote: SwitchI think there are a few places outside Nevada that allow multi-card free doubles Buzz. It actually gives the player around 0.6% as they are free doubles.
Right you are, once again. I was not talking about free bets. Still take a little getting use to Free Bets, push 22 even. I mean like it seems everytime my dealer broke with 22, I had already busted LOL
Quote: BuzzardDoes anyplace allow you to double down on anything other than the first two cards, excluding Spanish 21 or Super Fun , maybe ?
Just asking cause that gives the player 0.23%
If you mean games and not states the Plaza/LVC's Most Liberal 21 lets you double after you have hit but it is far from liberal because most blackjacks pay even money, suited pay 2-1. It is also now a H17 game.
There are/were a couple of locals casinos that allow a double on three cards.
Quote: brownlunchsackCasino royale also allows free double on first 2 cards only. Sad. Going right now to see if game is live at mirage yet.
Edit: not yet at mirage.
Geez, they really messed this game up. They are tied for the worst blackjack on the strip with IP/Quad. O'Sheas shared this shame until they closed.
Quote: PokeraddictGeez, they really messed this game up. They are tied for the worst blackjack on the strip with IP/Quad. O'Sheas shared this shame until they closed.
I didn't hear the advertisement outside of CR this last trip, but walking outside on my other 2011-12 Vegas trips and hearing the lady say "Blackjack with liberal rules" multiple times is ingrained in my brain. It's sad that it is an outright lie and even Geoff couldn't stop it.
Quote: tringlomaneI didn't hear the advertisement outside of CR this last trip, but walking outside on my other 2011-12 Vegas trips and hearing the lady say "Blackjack with liberal rules" multiple times is ingrained in my brain. It's sad that it is an outright lie and even Geoff couldn't stop it.
It was a lie because every standard blackjack game is 6-5. They have switch too but I have not bothered to ask the rules to it. I assume they found some way to kill it too. This was the case when I did the survey the last two times.
Quote: Pokeraddict... I assume they found some way to kill it too....
They often do. Not always intentionally, and sometimes with the best of intentions....
This is the thing about getting games out that every inventor fears...the pit crew, and in cases of blackjack variant games, how Blackjack is handled in general by marketing/corporate, what have you.
I remember designing one game where there was:
1. One official strategy; (cannot change such things as DOA, split to four hands, 3:2 payout, type of thing at ALL)
2. One official "positive" side bet;
3. One bad-beat type side bet.
4. One house edge mechanism (like push on 22)
5. One "tag line" to train the dealers on what to say, if someone asks, "what is this game"/"How do you play it?"
In case of any local casino temptation to tweak and tinker, or ever say "Geez, I have an idea - let's try THIS for THAT new game!"
House edge was in range, and appropriate....It was modeled on Three Card poker as it exists now: ONE qualifier (Queen-high), basically ONE pair plus table (40/30/6/3/1) kind of thing.
AND the math report had actually had several secret alternate side bet/house edge options - IF later needed, and if they were determined by us as necessary.
Quote: PokeraddictAny ideas what a house may do to increase the edge on switch? Of all the BJ games I am least familiar with this. If BJ pays even, H17 and 22 pushes where else do they kill it? Remove DAS? RSA? That is not much of an edge reduction compared to making a 3-2 BJ game 6-5.
If you were familiar with Blackjack Switch, then you are familiar with it being one of the lowest HE variants of Blackjack ever: 0.58% under "standard Las Vegas Rules." The ability to swap cards between two hands provides a tremendous player advantage.
What may hurt BJ Switch for the player edge is that the strategy is complex, difficult, and many people misplay the game; The same applies to Ultimate Texas Hold 'em at 0.526% - also assuming correct player strategy. Correct strategy play on BJ Switch and UTH is so elusive or counter-intuitive, a high house edge is unnecessary.
Freebet also provides a very low house edge, but its play is essentially the same as Basic strategy, or at least it's very intuitive, so correct play comes very easily. In Freebet's case, the game, when including its easy-of-strategy, is a tremendous player bargain.
Ties of 17 and 18 lose for the player;
Ties of 17-19 lose for the player;
All player ties lose....
Push player Blackjacks....
Player Blackjacks automatically lose....
Player wins with only a 20 or 21 that beats the dealer's hand.
Seriously, see: Longer list of blackjack rule variations, and effects of Rule Variations here.
Quote: PaigowdanIf you were familiar with Blackjack Switch, then you are familiar with it being one of the lowest HE variants of Blackjack ever: 0.58% under "standard Las Vegas Rules." The ability to swap cards between two hands provides a tremendous player advantage.
What may hurt BJ Switch for the player edge is that the strategy is complex, difficult, and many people misplay the game; The same applies to Ultimate Texas Hold 'em at 0.526% - also assuming correct player strategy. Correct strategy play on BJ Switch and UTH is so elusive or counter-intuitive, a high house edge is unnecessary.
Freebet also provides a very low house edge, but its play is essentially the same as Basic strategy, or at least it's very intuitive, so correct play comes very easily. In Freebet's case, the game, when including its easy-of-strategy, is a tremendous player bargain.
I am familiar with how low of an edge it has. What surprised me is that Casino Royale has about half of their BJ games set as switch, a casino with 100% 6-5 standard BJ games including Free Bet. I assumed that they found a way to kill it in a similar way they did to Free Bet. I was just wondering what exactly they had done or if they depend entirely on their player's low skill level.
