Shills
I am reading some older gambling books like Lyle Stuart's "Lyle Stuart on baccarat" and "Casino gambling for the winner" and Barney Vinson's "Las Vegas behind the tables". In all these books the subject of shills come up. Shills are employees of a casino that act like a player to get a dead game started. But I don't see those people any more or maybe I don't recognize them. Can somebody tell whether shills are still employed in casino and if not when did they abolish it and why. I'm looking forward to your reactions.
Quote: FlynnI am reading some older gambling books like Lyle Stuart's "Lyle Stuart on baccarat" and "Casino gambling for the winner" and Barney Vinson's "Las Vegas behind the tables". In all these books the subject of shills come up. Shills are employees of a casino that act like a player to get a dead game started. But I don't see those people any more or maybe I don't recognize them. Can somebody tell whether shills are still employed in casino and if not when did they abolish it and why. I'm looking forward to your reactions.
Most Midwest states expressly prohibit the use of shills in a casino. In fact, most casinos have policies where you can't play anywhere in your casino (or in PA, any casino in the entire state!) Iowa allows it on a per casino basis; for example, the poker dealers at Horseshoe CB can play anywhere in the casino, including poker.
Which brings me to the only place where you might still see shills, the poker room. Mississippi allows it but they must identify themselves as such. I'm not sure which other states would allow it, but I'd be surprised if anywhere outside of Nevada would actually allow them on table games, and at that, I'd be surprised.
Quote: TiltpoulMost Midwest states expressly prohibit the use of shills in a casino. In fact, most casinos have policies where you can't play anywhere in your casino (or in PA, any casino in the entire state!) Iowa allows it on a per casino basis; for example, the poker dealers at Horseshoe CB can play anywhere in the casino, including poker.
PA is changing this law soon. Another user here is looking for PA Dealers to be interviewed on the subject for the local paper, dealers interested PM. (PA DEALERS ONLY)
Quote: TiltpoulIn fact, most casinos have policies where you can't play anywhere in your casino (or in PA, any casino in the entire state!) Iowa allows it on a per casino basis; for example, the poker dealers at Horseshoe CB can play anywhere in the casino, including poker.
Not exactly related to shills, but I recently saw a sign at a casino that said "employees of XXX Casino ARE ALLOWED to play here." Found it odd. Even before the sign showed up I had seen dealers, still wearing their work uniform, playing a few hands of blackjack. Kind of weirded me out; I'm surprised they allow it.
Quote: TiltpoulMost Midwest states expressly prohibit the use of shills in a casino. In fact, most casinos have policies where you can't play anywhere in your casino (or in PA, any casino in the entire state!) Iowa allows it on a per casino basis; for example, the poker dealers at Horseshoe CB can play anywhere in the casino, including poker.
Which brings me to the only place where you might still see shills, the poker room. Mississippi allows it but they must identify themselves as such. I'm not sure which other states would allow it, but I'd be surprised if anywhere outside of Nevada would actually allow them on table games, and at that, I'd be surprised.
It's an odd system here in MN. Table games dealers at Canterbury and Running Aces (the track-related card-clubs) will play poker when it's slow. They're on the clock & being paid, but they don't receive front money or anything. They're also free to clock out early, though most would rather play and hope it gets busy later (they're go-it-alone tipping houses, so dealing eventually is a desired situation...)
Shills were young and attractive people hired to be the equivalent of "window dressing" in a restaurant (early in the evening customers are seated near windows so that passersby do not see an uninviting empty restaurant). Shills would be well dressed and start out a baccarat game in the late afternoon or early evening and invite passersby to join them. This way the game got going early and when there seemed to be a sufficient number of players, the shills would bow out. Shills had one firm rule that applied to them: do not ever try to cash any chips. (I have it on good authority, a former shill, that he was told it would be his arm if he was ever caught trying to cash any chips. He was Italian. From Brooklyn. I believed him.).
Aside from young ladies in Evening Gowns sitting under the Baccarat chandelier shills were also hired for opening higher limit BJ tables. Demographic changes in the gambling public makes shills no longer necessary.
Shills are still legal but seem not to be used anymore.
In the Poker Room there are two signs: Proposition Players may be employed and Shills may be employed. Usually they are disclosed if they are actually at the table. A proposition Player is hired by the casino but plays with his own bankroll and makes mostly his own decisions. Shills are moved about to round out waiting lists or other reasons but are rare nowadays.
Dealers (Poker and other games) are often permitted to play elsewhere in the casino though often restricted in some manner. Such as a BJ dealer is allowed to play slots but perhaps not BJ. Signs are usually posted about this near the Cashier cage but its meaningless to most players.
Quote: FlynnSorry, maybe the question wasn't clear. I am not asking whether employees are allowed to gamble in their own casino but whether there are employees who's only job is to sit at an (almost) empty table to encourage potential players to sit down and play. These employees are known as shills according to Lyle Stuart and Barney Vinson.
I knew the definition of shill, so maybe I wasn't the one who made my answer clear enough (it happens, I tend to ramble).
In most Midwest states, NOBODY is allowed to be working for the casino and allowed to play in that particular casino. Illinois, Indiana, PA, Ohio, and Missouri all have very clear rules about this. In fact, in those states, if ANY casino employee picks up a PENNY they find on the ground and doesn't turn it in, it can be grounds for dismissal and in Missouri and PA (I think), a felony.
As a result, shills would not be used in any of those states. As far as Iowa, Indian casinos and Nevada and other jurisdictions, shills may be allowed, but nowadays they would be in the form of a dealer who is waiting to open an empty table. Think about it: most casinos cut costs to ridiculous levels, so why would they hire an extra person just to try to get another table going? If you have the labor, put it to use!
Quote: FleaStiffShills seem to have gone the way of change girls and keno runners.
Shills are still legal but seem not to be used anymore.
I love the first line. There are still a few casinos that have change runners, including some that are entirely TITO, but they are very very rare. I also agree that changing demographics do not require the need for shills.
Quote: ewjones080We definitely need shills at my casino from time to time, especially for craps. It's strange how that's a game nobody likes to play alone. I can't count how many times I've walked up to a dead craps game and within five minutes it's practically full, or stood at a dead craps game, one guy buys in, and again, five minutes later, the table is full.
Guilty :)
I don't like to play alone because the game goes too fast with only one player, even if you can take it slowly, and because I prefer to have someone else shoot if I'm having a bad streak (not that I can know in advance how well I'll shoot, naturally). So I will walk past a craps table without other players.
Except this once, when the 4 Queens table was at $3 minimum. I bought in with no other players there. As you say, the table fileld up in not imte, but by then they raised the minimum to $5. I was allowed to keep betting $3. I guess I can't resist a bargain.
Quote: TiltpoulIn most Midwest states, NOBODY is allowed to be working for the casino and allowed to play in that particular casino. Illinois, Indiana, PA, Ohio, and Missouri all have very clear rules about this. In fact, in those states, if ANY casino employee picks up a PENNY they find on the ground and doesn't turn it in, it can be grounds for dismissal and in Missouri and PA (I think), a felony.
What exactly is the wording on the statute? The problem, as I see it, is that the casino doesn't allow employees to play, for themselves, in a casino. However, a shill is specifically someone who was hired for the purpose of actually playing in the casino, with the casinos own money. So, if the statutes were to state that employees could not gamble in the casino, then that wouldn't specifically cover shills, as a shill would not be gambling, but rather doing their job.
For the record, most poker rooms (and my only experience with shills and prop players are at poker rooms) will identify shills and prop players if you ask them. I've never had the identification be delayed or had anybody question why I wanted to know. They were just instantly pointed out to me. However, I always supposed that if I were to encounter a poker room that was hesitant to answer the question, then I would leave. There's no (valid) reason why a poker room shouldn't be willing to identify the shills and prop players.
Also, the shills tend to be rather obvious. Since the shill is playing with house money, most poker rooms don't really allow the shill to do much anyway. Most of the time, they are pretty obvious because all they do is blind and fold. They are mainly there to fill a seat, and hopefully generate some interest in the game. They are usually obvious to identify, as well, because they will be the first to give up their seat to an actual player.
Prop players, on the other hand, can be harder to identify. That's why it's safer to just ask.
Quote: konceptumWhat exactly is the wording on the statute? The problem, as I see it, is that the casino doesn't allow employees to play, for themselves, in a casino. However, a shill is specifically someone who was hired for the purpose of actually playing in the casino, with the casinos own money. So, if the statutes were to state that employees could not gamble in the casino, then that wouldn't specifically cover shills, as a shill would not be gambling, but rather doing their job.
For the record, most poker rooms (and my only experience with shills and prop players are at poker rooms) will identify shills and prop players if you ask them. I've never had the identification be delayed or had anybody question why I wanted to know. They were just instantly pointed out to me. However, I always supposed that if I were to encounter a poker room that was hesitant to answer the question, then I would leave. There's no (valid) reason why a poker room shouldn't be willing to identify the shills and prop players.
Also, the shills tend to be rather obvious. Since the shill is playing with house money, most poker rooms don't really allow the shill to do much anyway. Most of the time, they are pretty obvious because all they do is blind and fold. They are mainly there to fill a seat, and hopefully generate some interest in the game. They are usually obvious to identify, as well, because they will be the first to give up their seat to an actual player.
Prop players, on the other hand, can be harder to identify. That's why it's safer to just ask.
That could be an advantage play if all the shill did was blind and fold. That is an extra 1 or 2 dollars of the casino's money going into the pot if they do this hand after hand. Of course this depends on the rake, but it could at least cover part of the rake if nothing else.
The dealers always get a good laugh (if they've not seen me before) because one of them will usually say when I put the first bet the Wrong Way, "You know you're betting against yourself, right?" I'll reply, "That's fine, I suck. The longer I'm the only one here, the more money I'll win. I can't even make a point in an argument."
The last part is kind of weak and could be improved, but, "I suck," usually gives them a good chuckle.
Quote: ewjones080We definitely need shills at my casino from time to time, especially for craps. It's strange how that's a game nobody likes to play alone. I can't count how many times I've walked up to a dead craps game and within five minutes it's practically full, or stood at a dead craps game, one guy buys in, and again, five minutes later, the table is full.
You see the same thing in bars. Once one brave couple gets out on the dance floor you suddenly see six or seven couples out there. They all wanted to dance but all seemed to have wanted someone else to be first. Is it sensible? No. Is it common? Yes.
Now the only "de facto shills" that exist are gorgeous girls who stroll by a craps table or an occasional hooker with whom a crew has an arrangement. The crew will try to get a passing beauty to start to play and if she soon disappears the crowd may stay. Crews won't try quite so hard with other passersby. Some crews have made arrangements with a hooker or two who start the game and then soon start their real evening's activities.
In fact, no casino really needs shills anymore.
