General Sports Talk
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69 members have voted
Quote: kewljSo last week, I commented about how I hate MLB's new extra inning rule (runner starting on 2nd base). I am a bit of a traditionalist and just don't like changing the game. I hate college football's overtime format and the NHL overtime as well.
So today, resting at home, I watched the Phillies/Yankees double header with the new double header 7 innings rule. Anyone want to guess my feelings on that? lol yep, I hate it.
In baseball you have your starting pitchers, your middle relief guys and your late inning set up and closers. With 7 innings you completely eliminate the middle relief guys. Teams can go right from starters to set up guys and closers. It takes a segment of the game, middle relief away. That may be a teams strength or weakness. I just don't like changing the game like this. Anyone else?
Interesting to see the "middle - setup - closer" bullpen roles describes as traditional, when it represents only about the most recent 20% of baseball history. At the very start of professional baseball, teams would have like two pitchers on the team. Then they went to rotations, but the starters would complete most all of their games. By the 1930s, most everyone was a swingman, starting and relieving (examples: Lefty Grove, Firpo Marberry). By the 40s and 50s, whenever the starter was knocked out, teams would bring in the best reliever that was rested enough to pitch and let them pitch as much as they could (Ellis Kinder). From the 50s through the 70s, teams developed relief aces who they would use in high-leverage situations (Wilhelm, Gossage). Then Sutter and Righetti type relievers were a bridge to Eckersley and Thigpen and the modern closer. Then it was only some time after that, when the other relief pitchers with their roles equally defined. Now with openers and 14 pitchers on a roster, things are changing again.
The new three batter rule does as much to move further away from modern relief strategy than seven-inning double headers, and that is here to stay.
Every team playing Sunday double-headers is (or was) a baseball tradition. I'm thinking they slowly reduced the number throughout the 50s and 60s. I'm also sure 14 innings in 2020 takes longer than 18 innings did in 1951.
I've always thought there was not a need for overtimes in sports. Ties should be ok. Americans seem to have this weird idea that a winner must be decided on the field after a few hours; but if the NFL plays a 17 week season and three teams are tied with 9-7 records it's ok to use some silly formula to decide which one goes to the playoffs.
Quote: TomG
I've always thought there was not a need for overtimes in sports. Ties should be ok.
three teams are tied with 9-7 records it's ok to use some silly formula to decide which one goes to the playoffs
I don't like the idea of a lot of ties - like soccer.
to me it's unsatisfying - like kissing your sister
but I don't like the NFL's coin toss for overtime giving a significant advantage to the team that wins it and takes possession first
my suggestion is this:
each team gets the ball on the 5 yard line - and gets just one down - one attempt - it doesn't really matter who goes first
the game is decided by who converts to the end zone when the other team fails to convert to the end zone
if they both convert or the both fail to convert a 2nd or 3rd or 4th try is taken
until one team converts when the other team doesn't convert - it shouldn't usually take long for that to happen
this way the skill factor is what will decide the game - no significant disadvantage to being unlucky
as far as deciding the playoffs by a silly formula when teams are tied at 9-7 -
there could be a better formula - such as margin of victory in points
if there's still a tie, which is unlikely, it could go to yards gained and given up
also, there's no guarantee there won't still be ties in the season's record if ties are allowed - probably fewer - but it still would happen
As late as the late 1970s, many ballplayers needed to work. Many would "barnstorm", putting together a team of fellow major leaguers and tour, taking on local teams or other barnstormers. It really wasn't until after the 1981 strike that the players gained the advantage salary wise.
Quote: billryan
As late as the late 1970s, many ballplayers needed to work.
One of my baseball cards from 1979 says the player was a substitute teacher in the off-season!
Quote: lilredroosterI don't like the idea of a lot of ties - like soccer.
to me it's unsatisfying - like kissing your sister
MLB and NBA, have fairly low overtime rates. About 6% in NBA and 9% in MLB, if basketball ended after five minutes of OT, and baseball ended after 10 innings, it would be only around 5% of games ending in ties.
The kissing my sister comparison is just really weird.
NFL overtime rate is about 10%. The problem is it's such a violent game, so they want to keep it short, which puts too much emphasis on the coin flip (NFL), or it turns into a different game (college). Just call it a half win in the regular season and it really helps the problem of a bunch of teams tied with the same record for the last playoff spot. (certainly won't be a complete fix, only a way to lessen the problem). In the playoffs, play a full 15 minutes, and if it's still tied, then it becomes sudden victory.
The worst "sport" for ties is, by far, chess. Someone needs to do a tournament where every game is armageddon,
Quote: lilredroosteras far as deciding the playoffs by a silly formula when teams are tied at 9-7 -
there could be a better formula - such as margin of victory in points
if there's still a tie, which is unlikely, it could go to yards gained and given up
This represents the problem I see with people being so resistant to ties. Being against ties in the standings means you see the game more as it's own distinct unit, not a piece used to build a season. In that case, it would be nonsensical to use the totality of points, rather than game results. If a team starts the fourth quarter leading 31-0, should it really matter in the standings if the final score is 31-8 or 45-0 (nearly doubling the margin of victory). If you do say yes, that means you think the game result (win or loss) is not the only measurement we should be using, in which case a ties should be acceptable.
Quote: TomG
In that case, it would be nonsensical to use the totality of points, rather than game results. If a team starts the fourth quarter leading 31-0, should it really matter in the standings if the final score is 31-8 or 45-0 (nearly doubling the margin of victory). If you do say yes, that means you think the game result (win or loss) is not the only measurement we should be using, in which case a ties should be acceptable.
they've used margin of victory for a long time in college football - as one factor in determining who is invited to bowls - although they may not be making an exact calculation and there are other factors - I don't see any problem with it - using it to just break seasonal record ties to determine who gets into the playoffs
I think the game results, and the team's overall record should be the main measurement to determine who gets into the playoffs
the margin of victory should only be a secondary measurement to be used when necessary
and again, 𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐨𝐰𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐞 𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐬 𝐢𝐧 𝐠𝐚𝐦𝐞𝐬 𝐝𝐨𝐞𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐰𝐨𝐧'𝐭 𝐛𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐬𝐞𝐚𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥 𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐨𝐫𝐝 𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐬 - it just means there would be fewer - there still would be some - and it will still be necessary to use some formula (the one used now you called silly) to determine who gets into the playoffs
so, since you think that the formula now being used is silly - what formula would you recommend if there is a season record tie to determine who gets into the playoffs?
an ex L.A. Angels exec is alleged to have sold drugs - that included fentanyl - to pitcher Tyler Skaggs and that it caused his death by overdose
the ex exec is charged with criminal conspiracy to distribute fentanyl
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/07/sports/baseball/la-angels-fentanyl-tyler-skaggs.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage
Quote: lilredroosterthey've used margin of victory for a long time in college football - as one factor in determining who is invited to bowls - although they may not be making an exact calculation and there are other factors - I don't see any problem with it - using it to just break seasonal record ties to determine who gets into the playoffs
BCS was a combination of committee, polls, strength of schedule, computer rankings. Only the computer formulas had points scored and points allowed as an actual input. But it was actually more like strength of victory, not margin of victory. A 21 point win was much better than a 1 point win; but a 41 point win was only marginally better than a 21 point win; and a 61 point win was virtually the same as winning by 41.
Ties in NFL games absolutely would reduce the amount of ties in the standings. Tie counts as half win and half loss, then total wins is the first tie breaker, ie 8-4-4 is better than 9-7-0, but worse than 10-6-0. Only then start using whatever tie-breaker system they have in place now that they decided was best. You can go back and change the standings based on overtime games and see it working a lot better. And of course the other benefit is no longer giving an advantage to a team based on a coin flip, or having to change the way the game is played in overtime.
I saw Earl The Pearl Monroe's first home game in Baltimore
what a sensation he created
whenever the Bullets had the ball the fans screamed - "give it to Pearl - we wanna see Pearl" - and wow - he did deliver
his rookie year they played the Lakers and Jerry West guarded him - he got 44 on West
the NBA executives were so astonished they reviewed the tapes to see if he was getting away with palming the ball or traveling - he wasn't
because he came from a very small college there was a lot of skepticism about him
when he went over to the Knicks he played much more conservatively
he was unique in that he juked the defender with his back to the basket
there's never been another player like him - Maravich was the closest - and I do have to admit Pistol Pete was his equal or better in terms of being sensational
Earl and Walt Frazier formed one of the best backcourts of all time but he just wasn't the same player. While everyone knows his "Pearl" nickname, he also was known as Black Jesus and that offended a large portion of the season ticketholders. I think that had a bit to do with him moderating his game, in order to appease the powers that be. Playing on a team that had seven future Hall of Famers certainly helped. The funny thing was many people thought NY would never embrace Monroes flash, but out in nearby Long Island, Julius Erving was about to revolutionize the game.
Quote: billryanBack then, I was a huge Knicks fan and was estatic when the Knicks traded for him, even though Mike Riordan was one of my favorite Knick and went to Baltimore.
Earl and Walt Frazier formed one of the best backcourts of all time but he just wasn't the same player. While everyone knows his "Pearl" nickname, he also was known as Black Jesus and that offended a large portion of the season ticketholders. I think that had a bit to do with him moderating his game, in order to appease the powers that be. Playing on a team that had seven future Hall of Famers certainly helped. The funny thing was many people thought NY would never embrace Monroes flash, but out in nearby Long Island, Julius Erving was about to revolutionize the game.
Quote: kewljSo I know this is a little silly, but sports related. My late partner and I "attended" the phillies game today. Waste of money? Yes. But I thought it would be fitting for my partner, a lifelong phila sports fan to "attend" one more game. Hopefully the Phil's win although as a long term phillies fan maybe a loss would be more fitting. Lol
So are you saying that you bought tickets in memoriam or that you put a couple of cardboard cutouts in the stands?
Meanwhile, since I've been asked many times this last week, my thoughts on the virus and sports (and sports gambling) are posted on my blog as of yesterday. I'm not supposed to post a link here without permission, so one can just look it up the blog address in old posts. It was a Part One of two parts.
Quote: redietzSo are you saying that you bought tickets in memoriam or that you put a couple of cardboard cutouts in the stands?
Paid for cardboard cutouts.
I knew it would be today but didn't know the Phil's would be wearing those throwback powder blue uniforms from the 80's. Before my time but kind of fitting for a long term fan.
Quote: kewljPaid for cardboard cutouts.
I knew it would be today but didn't know the Phil's would be wearing those throwback powder blue uniforms from the 80's. Before my time but kind of fitting for a long term fan.
My father was an enormous Phillies fan. This is a little personal but touching, in a way. He had holes eaten in his brain by a virus and had symptoms resembling, but not identical to, Alzheimer's. Anyway, he would watch the Phillies live at night on television, then when the replay was shown the next day in the afternoon, he would watch the identical game without knowing it was not live. He cheered just as hard in the afternoon. Poignant stuff.
Anyway, congrats on the cutouts. That's a cool thing to do.
And you know someone, somewhere, will try to tape the game to see if they can identify the kewlJ. LOL. I guarantee you someone does that.
Quote: redietz
And you know someone, somewhere, will try to tape the game to see if they can identify the kewlJ. LOL. I guarantee you someone does that.
Yeah, I gave that some thought but decided to do it anyway. Used to be I only had concerns about casino industry folks (more database than casino), but now there are just so many other "haters".
Anyway, not directly behind home plate, so not in every shot, but I did get a call from a friend in Philly saying she saw me, so that was cool.
That's pretty cool, KJ! BTW, those powder blue uni's are what I grew up with.Quote: kewljPaid for cardboard cutouts.
I knew it would be today but didn't know the Phil's would be wearing those throwback powder blue uniforms from the 80's. Before my time but kind of fitting for a long term fan.
Speaking of cardboard fans, did anybody catch Brenie from Weekend at Bernie's in the stands at a Royals game last week?
My girlfriend commented on the whiteness, too. It's hard to hide the paleness of the cutouts.
For anybody wondering about the band, here we go. They shot this, and the two previous, in quarantine. Takes a good editor and some cleverness to make it work when half the band is on one coast and half on the other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4x-iz9FPuk
Quote: kewljSo last week, I commented about how I hate MLB's new extra inning rule (runner starting on 2nd base). I am a bit of a traditionalist and just don't like changing the game. I hate college football's overtime format and the NHL overtime as well.
So today, resting at home, I watched the Phillies/Yankees double header with the new double header 7 innings rule. Anyone want to guess my feelings on that? lol yep, I hate it.
In baseball you have your starting pitchers, your middle relief guys and your late inning set up and closers. With 7 innings you completely eliminate the middle relief guys. Teams can go right from starters to set up guys and closers. It takes a segment of the game, middle relief away. That may be a teams strength or weakness. I just don't like changing the game like this. Anyone else?
Baseball is so abjectly boring it really is better to limit the time of the games....... But seriously, you make a great point. As long as they just do it for this truncated COVID-19 season, I guess it makes sense. If they extend it to become permanent, I'd be against it. Can't you wait for an asterisk perfect game?
It looks like college football is cancelling the fall season. The Big Ten has just cancelled so now you can expect most of the other conferences to follow shortly,
A very sad day for me.
I am a Mets fan, so I became accustomed to see many famous players get traded to NY and fizzle: Willie Mays, George Foster, Jim Fregosi, etc., etc.
Quote: kewlj. Reports are there was significant support for cancelling the season.
Most reports that I have seen believe the season will not be cancelled but more likely moved to the spring.
Quote: DRichMost reports that I have seen believe the season will not be cancelled but more likely moved to the spring.
I don't really "get" this idea of moving seasons to other times of the year. I mean lets take this case of collage football. You play in the spring have a championship game in July, that bumps right up against the next season as teams begin practice in July and August. How does that work?
Same thing with the NBA and NHL. It is now August. If they are fortunate enough to get their seasons in now as planned, with no more delays, they are playing right though to October. The new NBA and NHL seasons start in October!
It just seems like the seasons have all grown so long that there really isn't that kind of leeway. If something happens that the season has to be disrupted or delayed for a long period like months, you have to scrap it and move on and start preparing plans for the next season, and what you might have to do to get that in. I love college basketball and March Madness, but they did it right. We aren't having March Madness here in August. lol
Quote: billryanHas the NBA or NHL addressed when next season will begin?
I believe I heard December for the NBA.
Quote: gordonm888I remember that Earl Monroe replaced Dick Barnett as the starting guard opposite Walt Frazier on the Knicks. Barnett retired, but he was very solid. Monroe came in with high expectations, but Reed and Frazier continued to be the best players on the team, and DeBusschere probably made at least as much of an impact as Earl the Pearl.
I am a Mets fan, so I became accustomed to see many famous players get traded to NY and fizzle: Willie Mays, George Foster, Jim Fregosi, etc., etc.
Barnett played on the Knicks for two years after Monroe joined them, but didn't get a lot of playing time. He had a nice, solid career.
Jerry Lucas ma have been the best player on the team those last few years, as Reed was injured as often as not. Lucas is in the Hall of Fame but he'd be considered a basketball god if the three-point shoot rule had been in effect. His ability to shoot from the outside while still crashing the offensive boards was unprecedented.
Quote: billryanHas the NBA or NHL addressed when next season will begin?
NHL is also looking to start early December and hope to play a full season.
Quote: vegasNHL is also looking to start early December and hope to play a full season.
So the Stanley Cup will end sometime in July or August?
Quote: billryanSo the Stanley Cup will end sometime in July or August?
They will have less days off but the season will go longer. They will try and end no more than a month later than normal. Remains to be seen of course as everything is still up in the air right now.
Quote: kewljThe Big 10 and Pac-12 have announced they are cancelling football for this fall. The other remaining 3 power conferences will have no choice but to follow. What are they going to declare a champion among less than half participants?
I would not be surprised if the ACC or SEC plays conference games. I don't think the NCAA will sponsor a Championship this year.
Don't be surprised if some teams align with other conferences to play this season. I think it is unlikely but could happen. If that happens the NCAA is going to weaken significantly and might be dropped by conferences in the future.
Your second point is substantially weakened by the realities of conference contracts.
Anyone know where I can bet on futures for when CFB games might be played or if they will be played at all? I’d take no CFB games played before 10/1/20 at -300 at this point.
Quote: mcallister3200The Blue Jays are playing in Buffalo, NY this year? Lol.
There remaining 26 home games are in Buffalo. Canada would not allow them to play in Canada.
Here's a key, if long shot, element. The NCAA declared that conferences would not be allowed to force players to sign away legal rights regarding covid-19. I don't see how any school can play football without such a waiver, as long-term covid effects have not been established and schools would be open to lawsuits virtually in perpetuity because there may be significant long term effects.
So the gazillion dollar question, which I have not seen mentioned in print or anywhere in any interview, is whether the brand name schools will be short sighted enough to try to do an end run around the NCAA and force athletes to sign waivers. Will they quit the NCAA over this? Or try to strong arm the NCAA into changing its declarations?
I wonder if they have given any thought to that is going to result in hundreds of thousands, if not a million people pouring out into the streets in some city to celebrate. I mean take Philadelphia, just because I am familiar with it, sanctioned or not, a parade and celebration WILL occur. Guaranteed super spreader event! Maybe even here in Vegas.
Quote: kewljGuaranteed super spreader event! Maybe even here in Vegas.
Quote: kewljAs I watched some the Flyers game tonight, something occurred to me that I wonder if it has occurred to those "powers that be". With the NHL and NBA doing pretty well with this bubble concept as far as minimizing covid cases (better than I thought they would), it now seems likely they may finish their seasons and crown a champion.
I wonder if they have given any thought to that is going to result in hundreds of thousands, if not a million people pouring out into the streets in some city to celebrate. I mean take Philadelphia, just because I am familiar with it, sanctioned or not, a parade and celebration WILL occur. Guaranteed super spreader event! Maybe even here in Vegas.
Irrelevant. NOT EVEN CLOSE to the number of people who attended BLM looting events.
In what ballpark was the major league record for home runs in a loss set?
Sahlen Field, BUFFALO!
Quote: SOOPOOOk.... I now have a great trivia question for a few years from today....
In what ballpark was the major league record for home runs in a loss set?
Sahlen Field, BUFFALO!
If I am not mistaken, you live in the Buffalo area. If they allow fans again, would you go to a game there?
Quote: DRichIf I am not mistaken, you live in the Buffalo area. If they allow fans again, would you go to a game there?
They won't.... but even though I am no longer a baseball fan I would. I've gone to games in Atlanta and St. Louis and D.C. in the past year or two when I was in town. Baseball without a rooting interest is really boring. When I was a kid and young adult as a Mets fan I lived and died on every pitch.
When Stephen Strasburg was a minor leaguer he was pitching a game in Buffalo shortly before his announced Major league debut. That was the last minor league game I went to in that stadium.
Quote: kewljSo the Dallas Cowboys announced plans today to "safely" allow up to 50,000 fans attend their games, while other teams, like the Raiders, Eagles, Giants and Jets (maybe more?) are not ALLOWED to have fans attend their games. Again this is not a team decision, it is state or local law. Is the NFL really going to allow such a disparage.
You mean is the NFL going to allow teams to not have fans? Sure. The visiting team gets a percentage, I think 20%, of ticket revenue. It is why there are PSLs (not included in ticket sales). And certain suite revenue is not included as well. Nor revenue from the $12 Budweisers.
But seriously, the NFL will want as many fans as allowed by the local authorities. If you are concerned about the competitive advantage that rabid fans would bring, the Bills would be in the Super Bowl every year. And all five Jacksonville fans in their stands ...... you get my point.
