General Sports Talk

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New York Nicks
Go!

It's about time for Nicks to win BIG (32 points) and to do well again since 1970ish

Patrick Ewing's Knicks are often described as the best team not to win a title. That may or may not be true, but they had some very good teams

The Mets win a game! Score was 8-0. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

He was a perfectly good pitcher, but numerically he is not even close to being Hall of Fame material.

well, google AI disagrees"

"AI Overview

Satchel Paige is widely considered one of the best pitchers in baseball history, with contemporaries like Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, and Bob Feller calling him the greatest they ever faced. Though official stats are limited due to segregation, he dominated the Negro Leagues for decades, had incredible speed"

and re the Hall of Fame:

"AI Overview

Yes, legendary pitcher Satchel Paige is in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Inducted in 1971, he was the first player primarily recognized for his stellar career in the Negro Leagues to be elected.
He was formally honored on August 9, 1971, following a push to recognize Negro League stars.
Key Highlights of His Induction:
Historic Selection: Paige was the first to be inducted by the Committee on Negro Baseball Leagues.
Recognition: While he also pitched in the MLB later in his career, his induction honored his decades of dominance in the Negro Leagues.

Legacy: Known as one of the greatest pitchers in history, his induction helped pave the way for other Negro League stars to be recognized."

and:

"AI Overview

Yes, Major League Baseball (MLB) officially considers the Negro Leagues as "major league" status, incorporating their statistics into official MLB records as of May 2024. This recognizes seven distinct Negro Leagues that operated between 1920 and 1948, correcting a "longtime oversight" that excluded these players. "

and:

"AI Overview

Legendary pitcher Satchel Paige was reputed to throw his fastball at speeds around 100–105 mph. While precise radar guns did not exist during his prime, experts and players of his era considered him the fastest pitcher, with many accounts placing his fastball in the 100+ mph range, coupled with exceptional control."

the link shows his dominance while in the Negro Leagues, and his excellent era in MLB in 5 years - 2.48, 3.05, 4.79, 3.07, 3.53 - only one mediocre year - he generated these stats while being 42 to 47 years old


https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paigesa01.shtml

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wow_________!!!________the Knicks - quite astonishing - and they did it while on the road____________!!!

from the link which is behind a paywall:

"We saw NBA playoff history Thursday as the New York Knicks obliterated the Atlanta Hawks, 140-89, to slam the door on their Eastern Conference opening-round series.

The Knicks rode a 47 point lead into halftime, breaking the record for the largest halftime margin in a playoff game. They fell just 3 points shy of the largest halftime lead in any NBA regular-season or playoff game and at one point led by 61 points, the largest lead in a playoff game in the play-by-play era (since 1996-97)."

Atlanta won 2 games in the series which considering this loss seems surprising

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I don't agree with the decision to mix the Negro League and Federal League statistics with the Major league Baseball (MLB) statistics. That's like mixing the UFL, XFL and the Canadian Football League statistics with the National Football League statistics.

Why don't we unify the North American baseball statistics with the Japanese professional baseball statistics? One wonders if this is racist to exclude the Japanese baseball leagues from the baseball-reference website.

Quote: gordonm888

I don't agree with the decision to mix the Negro League and Federal League statistics with the Major league Baseball (MLB) statistics.

One wonders if this is racist to exclude the Japanese baseball leagues from the baseball-reference website.

you miss the point and that is a horrible analogy
Japanese players are allowed to play in the MLB and many do
AMERICAN black players were discriminated against - they were not allowed to play in MLB until Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947
the inclusion of them in the statistics is a way of trying to atone for the injustice and to acknowledge that they had some great players in the Negro Leagues
Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Satchel Paige all played in the Negro Leagues
there were other great players who never got the chance but at least they are now recognized to some extent
your post seems to me to suggest that the players in the Negro Leagues don't deserve this kind of recognition
that it is wrong to try to address the injustice that affected them


and

"AI Overview

after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947, many MLB teams tacitly limited the number of Black players through a form of "tokenism" and unwritten quotas, often limiting rosters to only one or two Black players. While integration began, it proceeded slowly; by 1951, only six of 16 teams had a Black player, and the last team did not integrate until 1959."


and


"AI Overview

Yes, Japanese players are allowed to play in the MLB and are a significant presence in the league. They typically join through the "posting system"—a negotiated transfer process between Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) and MLB—or as international free agents once they meet specific experience requirements, following in the footsteps of stars like Ichiro Suzuki and Shohei Ohtani"

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Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: gordonm888

I don't agree with the decision to mix the Negro League and Federal League statistics with the Major league Baseball (MLB) statistics.

One wonders if this is racist to exclude the Japanese baseball leagues from the baseball-reference website.

you miss the point and that is a horrible analogy
Japanese players are allowed to play in the MLB and many do
AMERICAN black players were discriminated against - they were not allowed to play in MLB until Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947
the inclusion of them in the statistics is a way of trying to atone for the injustice and to acknowledge that they had some great players in the Negro Leagues
Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Satchel Paige all played in the Negro Leagues
there were other great players who never got the chance but at least they are now recognized to some extent
your post seems to me to suggest that the players in the Negro Leagues don't deserve this kind of recognition
that it is wrong to try to address the injustice that affected them...

Incorrect. Hank Aaron never played an inning in the Negro Leagues. Willie Mays played a few games for a Negro League team but that was after integration, when they became just like any other minor league teams. Jackie Robinson also played only a few games in a Negro League, but he started very late in pro ball due to military service. (Incidentally, he may or may not have been the best athlete on his Army base.)

And that's why those statistics do not belong commingled with MLB statistics. They were minor league. After MLB teams were racially integrated some of those players were good enough to play in the Majors, just like some AAA players are good enough to play in the Majors. Others are not. That's why they're on minor league teams.

"Addressing injustice" is not the purpose of baseball statistics or recognition. Baseball never had a segregation rule; they were conforming to what the norms of society were at one time, and particularly the norms of Washington DC and St. Louis which had segregation laws in effect at ballparks and if the teams were integrated they could not lawfully play there, which would pollute the sport and the outcome of the season if the entire team couldn't play in some cities, and possibly void the contracts of players if they were forced to play contrary to law. Almost all of us see that as unjust now, but the people who lived back then saw it differently. They did a lot of things differently from us. Baseball has nothing to atone for; best they could do was Negro leagues and that's what they did.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Incorrect. Hank Aaron never played an inning in the Negro Leagues..

I won't debate this anymore - but you are incorrect re Hank Aaron -


"AI Overview

Hank Aaron began his professional baseball career in the Negro Leagues in 1952, playing for the Indianapolis Clowns at age 18. He played for the Clowns for roughly three months, where he was a standout shortstop and batted .467 before his contract was purchased by the Braves.

Salary: He was signed to a contract for $200 per month.

Legacy: Aaron was among the last major league players who previously played in the Negro Leagues

Following his short stint in the Negro Leagues, he was signed to the MLB farm system, officially beginning his Major League career with the Milwaukee Braves in 1954."

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Quote:

"Addressing injustice" is not the purpose of baseball statistics or recognition.

MLB gets to decide what stats they recognize and for what reason.

Quote:

Baseball never had a segregation rule;

They never had a segregation rule…except for the segregation rule they had from 1887 until 1947.

Quote:

they were conforming to what the norms of society were at one time

And that’s all the more shame on them,

Quote:

and particularly the norms of Washington DC and St. Louis which had segregation laws in effect at ballparks and if the teams were integrated they could not lawfully play there, which would pollute the sport and the outcome of the season if the entire team couldn't play in some cities, and possibly void the contracts of players if they were forced to play contrary to law.

Boo hoo. Then move the teams to more enlightened cities.

Quote:

Almost all of us see that as unjust now, but the people who lived back then saw it differently.

Black players saw it differently. So did those people in favor of integration. That includes people such as Babe Ruth and Ted Williams.

Quote:

They did a lot of things differently from us. Baseball has nothing to atone for; best they could do was Negro leagues and that's what they did.

The best they could’ve done was, you know, allow non-White players full opportunity to play MLB. For not doing so, they have that to atone for.

I'd like to find a middle ground where the players are recognized, but not the records. The Negro leagues were essentially minor leagues that featured a few great players. The sheer number of players who hit .400 shows the discrepency between the leagues.
Integration in the MLB took a long time, partly because many major league ballplayers took time off to fight in WW2, and teams weren't going to cut war veterans.
Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and a few others deserve to be in the Hall, but their statistics don't. Someone hitting .450 against a bunch of scrubs over a sixty-game season does not equal doing it over a full major league season.

Quote: billryan

I'd like to find a middle ground where the players are recognized, but not the records. The Negro leagues were essentially minor leagues that featured a few great players. The sheer number of players who hit .400 shows the discrepency between the leagues.
Integration in the MLB took a long time, partly because many major league ballplayers took time off to fight in WW2, and teams weren't going to cut war veterans.
Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and a few others deserve to be in the Hall, but their statistics don't. Someone hitting .450 against a bunch of scrubs over a sixty-game season does not equal doing it over a full major league season.
link to original post

So of the entire cohort of Negro league players, there were only a few great players, but there were more great white players in MLB per capita?

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well, billryan seems to be saying that the Negro Leagues were generally poor quality compared to MLB

well, here is something to consider:

here was Satchel Paige's era in a few of his years in the Negro Leagues:

3.68, 3.64, 4.67

and here is his era in MLB in 4 out of 5 years when he was age 42 to age 47:

2.48, 3.04, 3.07, 3.53

hows about them apples___________???


https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paigesa01.shtml


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Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: billryan

I'd like to find a middle ground where the players are recognized, but not the records. The Negro leagues were essentially minor leagues that featured a few great players. The sheer number of players who hit .400 shows the discrepency between the leagues.
Integration in the MLB took a long time, partly because many major league ballplayers took time off to fight in WW2, and teams weren't going to cut war veterans.
Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and a few others deserve to be in the Hall, but their statistics don't. Someone hitting .450 against a bunch of scrubs over a sixty-game season does not equal doing it over a full major league season.
link to original post

So of the entire cohort of Negro league players, there were only a few great players, but there were more great white players in MLB per capita?
link to original post

Sure. Probably because Blacks did not see a future career playing baseball due to the racism preventing them from being major leaguers. Today, less than 7% of MLB players are African American. Compare that to the majorities in NFL and NBA.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Incorrect. Hank Aaron never played an inning in the Negro Leagues..

I won't debate this anymore - but you are incorrect re Hank Aaron -


"AI Overview

Hank Aaron began his professional baseball career in the Negro Leagues in 1952, playing for the Indianapolis Clowns at age 18. He played for the Clowns for roughly three months, where he was a standout shortstop and batted .467 before his contract was purchased by the Braves.

Salary: He was signed to a contract for $200 per month.

Legacy: Aaron was among the last major league players who previously played in the Negro Leagues

Following his short stint in the Negro Leagues, he was signed to the MLB farm system, officially beginning his Major League career with the Milwaukee Braves in 1954."

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link to original post

The institution of Baseball and its scribes do not agree. There is no record of Hank Aaron playing in an official game for the Indianapolis Clowns, nor any other team that was at the time part of any Negro league.

From the Baseball Almanac, not AI slop:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=aaron-001hen

Quote: lilredrooster

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well, billryan seems to be saying that the Negro Leagues were generally poor quality compared to MLB

well, here is something to consider:

here was Satchel Paige's era in a few of his years in the Negro Leagues:

3.68, 3.64, 4.67

and here is his era in MLB in 4 out of 5 years when he was age 42 to age 47:

2.48, 3.04, 3.07, 3.53

hows about them apples___________???


https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paigesa01.shtml


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link to original post

Cherry picked stats. His ERA in the Negro Leagues was 2.56 and in the Majors it was 3.29, as well as his having a losing record in the Majors. I attribute that mostly to being in his 40s when he pitched in the Majors.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: billryan

I'd like to find a middle ground where the players are recognized, but not the records. The Negro leagues were essentially minor leagues that featured a few great players. The sheer number of players who hit .400 shows the discrepency between the leagues.
Integration in the MLB took a long time, partly because many major league ballplayers took time off to fight in WW2, and teams weren't going to cut war veterans.
Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and a few others deserve to be in the Hall, but their statistics don't. Someone hitting .450 against a bunch of scrubs over a sixty-game season does not equal doing it over a full major league season.
link to original post

So of the entire cohort of Negro league players, there were only a few great players, but there were more great white players in MLB per capita?
link to original post

Possible, but that's not part of the claim. It all has to do with the numerical definition of being a minority and its consequences. There were only 16 MLB teams in 1947. There were also about 7x more whites than blacks. But almost all males had given baseball a try back then and if they had the talent, they knew it. If baseball talent was distributed equally among the races (and that's probably so) there would only be 2 or 3 Negro League teams filled with talent equivalent to MLB. The rest would have to be something less than that, and they indeed were.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: billryan

I'd like to find a middle ground where the players are recognized, but not the records. The Negro leagues were essentially minor leagues that featured a few great players. The sheer number of players who hit .400 shows the discrepency between the leagues.
Integration in the MLB took a long time, partly because many major league ballplayers took time off to fight in WW2, and teams weren't going to cut war veterans.
Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and a few others deserve to be in the Hall, but their statistics don't. Someone hitting .450 against a bunch of scrubs over a sixty-game season does not equal doing it over a full major league season.
link to original post

So of the entire cohort of Negro league players, there were only a few great players, but there were more great white players in MLB per capita?
link to original post

Of the much larger cohort of white players, there were only a few greats.
What percent of white players were great? As of 1951, there were sixty white players in the Hall. That is out of over five thousand men who played in the MLB. In the 1950s, blacks made up 10% of the population. Statistics suggest that about 6 black players would have been in the Hall.
Seventy-five years later, there are 37 players who played in the Negro League out of 354 people. Another indication that the ten percent figure is valid.
How many great players of the day chose not to play because baseball was a lousy way to make a living.
BTW, the percentage of American-born blacks in MLB is around 7%. There are four times as many Latinos in baseball, yet no one brings up how they were discriminated against. I've heard sports writers say that Orlando Cepeda's father was as good as Babe Ruth or Josh Gibson, but he never got a shot either. He played one exhibition game against the Yankees and went 4-4. He played one season on a team in the Dominican Republic with Satchel Page and Josh Gibson. Why aren't those statistics counted?