Are Horses that "smart"
Are horses smart enough to understand the concept of "racing" or "beating another horse".
I keep hearing people giving horses human qualities...like "he was a great competitor", "she had great heart"
I mean sometimes they wear blinkers and cant see if they are "winning"....if indeed thay understand the concept of "winning"
I know dogs dont understand the concept of "winning a race"....they are simply chasing a make believe mechanical rabbit.
But is that the case..or is it just a animal that is bright enough to recognize that if they get whipped they should go faster, or else they will get whipped some more. Or an animal that learned its advantageous to do what the jockey wants or the whip comes out.
I kind of compare a horese to a dog. If I am walking my dog along the edge of the grand canyon....and i fall over the edge....the dog will stay there and bark, and bark looking for me. But with a horse...it would just walk away....into the distance without looking back.
I am sorry you didnt comprehend
however if you have a thought or some studies that prove one way or another that horses understand the concept of beating other horeses in a race....I would be happy to read it.
and falling over the edge of the grand canyon does not mandate that you fall to the bottom. you could be hanging by your fingernails on a rock or vegitation....and as the dog barks to call attention...the horse walks away.
If you were in trouble would u want lassie to help you....or flicka
my money is on lassie.
and I think neither understand the concept of winning a race
Racing? Animals play games all the time. And they take turns.
Quote: sodawaterit's not about understanding the concept of racing. it's an instinctual desire to run the fastest and run ahead of other pack horses. some champion horses have very strong instincts in this regard.
What I am proposing is that there are some horses that are superior to other horses as far as musculature, weight distribution, lung capacity, weight bearing joint capacity. All important in winning a race. And the horse that has the physical attributes that allows them to run the fastest time in the race will win .Yes there are superior athletic horses. They have the best distribution of muscle, body type, length of legs, joint and bone health and strength. All that stuff. I recognize their athletic superiority.
I propose it has all to do with a horses physical superiority and jockey riding ability...rather than the horses "craving to win" "heart of a champion" "desire to win"
Heck I dont even think a horse knows where the finish line is......let alone have a will to hit the finish line first.
You cant train dogs to run a race without the mechanical rabbit....and most people think dogs are intellegent.
And horses dont naturally run as fast as they can out of a gate when it opens...unless they are whipped, or have a history of being whipped so they know they better run.
The training of a horse to run as fast as it can at the time the jockey wants it to run as fast as it can is based in the inflicting of pain.....thats how they are trained. It has nothing to do with their "desire to win". A motivational speaker doesnt visit the horse before the race....the jockey gets on, and the horse knows that the jockey has the whip. Sometimes a tap of the hand in the place where the whip would hit is enough to make the point.
As for running from the gate as fast as he can, Dr. Fager was famous for that. He had to be first all the way. He was the only horse who ever held four titles in one year, 1968, when he was named the Horse of the Year, champion handicap horse, champion sprinter, and co-champion grass horse.
He split 4 races with another champion Damascus, but Damascus stable had to use a rabbit to win. Dr. Fager set the world record at 1 mile on any surface: 1:32 1/5 . That record still stands.
Quote: LarrySWhat I am proposing is that there are some horses that are superior to other horses as far as musculature, weight distribution, lung capacity, weight bearing joint capacity. All important in winning a race. And the horse that has the physical attributes that allows them to run the fastest time in the race will win .Yes there are superior athletic horses. They have the best distribution of muscle, body type, length of legs, joint and bone health and strength. All that stuff. I recognize their athletic superiority.
I propose it has all to do with a horses physical superiority and jockey riding ability...rather than the horses "craving to win" "heart of a champion" "desire to win"
Heck I dont even think a horse knows where the finish line is......let alone have a will to hit the finish line first.
You cant train dogs to run a race without the mechanical rabbit....and most people think dogs are intellegent.
And horses dont naturally run as fast as they can out of a gate when it opens...unless they are whipped, or have a history of being whipped so they know they better run.
The training of a horse to run as fast as it can at the time the jockey wants it to run as fast as it can is based in the inflicting of pain.....thats how they are trained. It has nothing to do with their "desire to win". A motivational speaker doesnt visit the horse before the race....the jockey gets on, and the horse knows that the jockey has the whip. Sometimes a tap of the hand in the place where the whip would hit is enough to make the point.
Why ask the question? You've already developed an answer. BTW, you're wrong.
I am over a friends house and the dog jumps on my friends lap and licks his face. He proclaims that the dog is showing his "love"....wow the dog has fallein in love with him.
Then I sit down, the dog jumps on my lap...and licks my face....I never saw this dog before...yet he now "loved" me
wasnt the dog acting whoreish?
I was assured the dog had a heart of gold, the heart of a champion, a good heart, and had great morals and values.
But yet the dog slipped and acted like an uncaring bitch when licking me
Quote: Sabretom2Why ask the question? You've already developed an answer. BTW, you're wrong.
maybe I am wrong
when Jimmie Johnson wins a race, I usually proclaim that the car had great heart.
Quote: Sabretom2Why ask the question? You've already developed an answer. BTW, you're wrong.
2 things can be equally valid
I can ask a question for people's views
AND
I can have my own initial opinion
the 2 are not exclusionary of each other
and thanks for your cogent dispute of my view,
Even though Lance Armstrong was doping.....his bicycles always had the heart of a champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsglPL3ROkQ
Quote: LarrySI get a kick of people who assign human traits and feelings to their animals.
I am over a friends house and the dog jumps on my friends lap and licks his face. He proclaims that the dog is showing his "love"....wow the dog has fallein in love with him.
Then I sit down, the dog jumps on my lap...and licks my face....I never saw this dog before...yet he now "loved" me
wasnt the dog acting whoreish?
I was assured the dog had a heart of gold, the heart of a champion, a good heart, and had great morals and values.
But yet the dog slipped and acted like an uncaring bitch when licking me
if a cat grooms you, it means they love you.
"Such behavior is generally a way for cats to show affection. Just as mother cats lick their young, grooming communicates a cat’s fondness for a person, as well as a sense of belonging.
The licking marks you as a member of the animal’s family group and spreads the cat’s scent. Just as cats scratch certain places to mark their territory, licking your skin or hair is a way of claiming you."
Quote: LarrySHeck I dont even think a horse knows where the finish line is......let alone have a will to hit the finish line first.
You cant train dogs to run a race without the mechanical rabbit....and most people think dogs are intellegent.
I remember once reading about a guy and his friends trying to prove to each other who was more macho, and one ended up cutting off his own head with a chainsaw. Human intelligence?
Actually you can find people using their intelligence like that every day in the news. Sometimes you have to ask, who is really smarter? Maybe you should not be so hard on those so-called "dumb" animals.
Quote: rudeboyoiIts pretty ridiculous to think animals don't have feelings. Why would that area of the brain ONLY exist in humans and not other species in the animal kingdom?
I agree, horses have acute feelings...... of pain when they are whiped
But do horses feel insulted, ....nope, do they feel dissapointed when they dont win a race.....nope......Do they feel disrespected.....no
do they feel a gnawing yearning need to win the next race?.....NO.... do they even know if there is going to be a next race.....NO
do they even know what "winning a race:" means?
WEARING BLINKERS,,,,do horses know if there are 2 horses way ahead of them that they cant see or way to their extreme right passing them???....no..
if there are 2 horses way ahead of them do they feel they won the race if they nose out the horse next to them for 5th place?......no
do they feel a glowing sense of satisfaction when they win a race....no...cause we havent really established that they understand what winning a race really means or if they accomplished it. Do they view the photo finish picture to see if they won?..OR DO THEY JUST ASSUME IT.
And if another horse tells them that they saw the photo finish pciture and they didnt win....is the horse embarrassed?
We make up these manmade conditions for these animals then attach human traits to these animals giving them way too much credit,
As smart as dogs are...none of them know they just won a race when chasing a mechanical rabbit. And I contend that horses are in the same situation....they are not wired like humans to feel a sense of accomplishment for "coming in first"....or even understanding what it means to "come in first"..or better yet to even recognize that they have in fact crossed a finsih line before other horses...or even understand the concept of a finsih line.
Quote: rxwineI remember once reading about a guy and his friends trying to prove to each other who was more macho, and one ended up cutting off his own head with a chainsaw. Human intelligence?
Actually you can find people using their intelligence like that every day in the news. Sometimes you have to ask, who is really smarter? Maybe you should not be so hard on those so-called "dumb" animals.
Not hard on the animals...just hard on the humans that beat them in order to get them to go fast...and then proclaim that the animal had a great need to win, to be a champion....BECAUSUE WE ALL KNOW HORSES DONT WANT TO HANG OUT WITH OTHER HORSES IN THE MEADOWS......they all want to show their heart of a champion by being beaten and coerced into "winning" a race.
Giving horses the intellectual power to want to win, takes the heat off the jockey and trainers that beat the hell out of them in order to coerce the "need to be a champion" into of them.
In the end they just have the need to survive. Just be a horse. without having iner goals and dreams of being a legend....like humans do.
In the end horses dont have "the heart of a champion"...they have the muscles, the lungs, the bone structure, and the physical heart..to be a superior athletic animal.
They dont have the burning desire to win like we like to think...they have the physical ability and the right jockey..just like a finely tuned race car
Quote: rxwineI remember once reading about a guy and his friends trying to prove to each other who was more macho, and one ended up cutting off his own head with a chainsaw. Human intelligence?
Actually you can find people using their intelligence like that every day in the news. Sometimes you have to ask, who is really smarter? Maybe you should not be so hard on those so-called "dumb" animals.
Yes Charles Manson supervised the killing of people...charles manson is human...the squirrels in my back yard never killed anyone....therefore the squirrels are more intellegent than humans.
Quote: rudeboyoiI think to most effectively make a horse realize it should get first is to keep whipping it if it crosses the finish line with other horses in front of it. I can't think of an effective way to provide the horse with positive reinforcement immediately after winning a race so have to resort to negative reinforcement when losing the race.
that would work if the horse had a clue what winning a race entails.
all they know is that when they are beaten that they have to run as fast as they can for as long as they can till the beating stops
winning or losing is beyond them
they dont see a finish line, they dont know what a finish line is, and they have no idea what "winning " means.
so beating them after a race is equivalent to beating a puppy for pooping in the house. They havent a clue what the beating is for.
Quote: LarryS
so beating them after a race is equivalent to beating a puppy for pooping in the house. They havent a clue what the beating is for.
Theyll know if you do it immediately. They won't if too much time has elapsed. They wont be able to associate one with the other
In the end if you beat a horse during the race, and also after the race, the horse has no idea why its being beaten to begin with, let alone visually see a finish line and form a goal to cross it before horses that it cant even see. Let alone understand the concept of winning or the concept of a race. All they know is that the gate opens and based on past experience they run fast or they will feel pain.
You know, there are a series of paintings of dogs playing poker....guess what....thats just humans converying human capabilities to animals...its not real..its impossible...its fiction.
you can dress 3 monkees in costumes of abe lincoln, george washington, and teddy roosevelt.....but that doesnt mean they have a clue who those people were. You can beat them all you want...but they will never understand
Thinking that your dog watching tv on your lap, sees the exact same thing in the exact same colors in the exact same visual acuity as humans is a faulty assumption.
What a horse sees and mentally processes before during and after a race is not something anyone can know. Therefore beating a horse based on what you think he saw is faulty punishment.
the blinkers cut down on their peripheral vision so that they can concentrate on going straight ahead,
curious though..for those who give horses human thought processes..you would think the horse would like to know if another horse was coming up on him ..so that he could really really dig in and try to win the race. You know try extra harder knowing he is getting competition. Just like the human thought processes.
Instead they put blinkers on to keep the horse focused on just getting whipped and running as fast as he can. No need to worry the horses pretty little head with issues of up and coming competition for the lead.
Quote: LarrySHorses that wear blinkers probably wouldnt know if they were passed in the last seconds. So just because us humans saw the horse being passed and coming in second or third...doesnt mean the horse saw it. So again beating the horse assuming they saw through their eyes what we saw from our eyes is a flawed assumption.
i took this into account by just saying if there were any horses in front of the horse.
Quote: LarrySThinking that your dog watching tv on your lap, sees the exact same thing in the exact same colors in the exact same visual acuity as humans is a faulty assumption.
What a horse sees and mentally processes before during and after a race is not something anyone can know. Therefore beating a horse based on what you think he saw is faulty punishment.
of course we can never know exactly whats going through a horses head. thats where experimentation with reward/punishment comes in.
Quote: rudeboyoii took this into account by just saying if there were any horses in front of the horse.
of course we can never know exactly whats going through a horses head. thats where experimentation with reward/punishment comes in.
its not cruel enough to beat them during the race, and in training leading up to the race to teach them to run fast at the jockey's will.
But then we are going to experimentally beat them to teach them a lesson that we think they should have seen through their eyes as we see through our eyes.
nice
But if you crack a whip at anything's butt you can make it move and move fast as it can go. So, horse racing isn't really about proving whether horses could race in that manner.
Same with dogs. Who says you can't train them to race without a mechanical rabbit? You probably can. Dogs can do fairly complex maneuvers
If you snap at someone's bare leg it will hurt. But if they're wearing a leather boot, it may just startle them. (horse's hide?)
+1 OMG!.... that was funnyQuote: BuzzardGee Larry, your last statement seems to prove the intelligence of horses.
Quote: rxwineI assume you're making an animal cruelty argument more than anything else. Probably the "whip" defenders say it doesn't hurt the horse that much, though who knows.
If you snap at someone's bare leg it will hurt. But if they're wearing a leather boot, it may just startle them. (horse's hide?)
Along with giving horses the human intellegence and thought processes..now someone is giving them superhuman qualities of tolerating whipping better than humans because horses must have no nerve endings in their "hide"/skin to let them know that their body is in danger, or to feel good when they get a hose turned on them or to feel heat when they are in the sun so they know to go to the shade. So whipping a horse is like tapping a human on the shoulder. All because those leather boots are so thick and really take alot of abuse.
thats funny.
It kind of makes the part about waiting till the hiorse crosses the finish line, and then beat the horsem while assuming it saw and understands what a finish line is make sense in comparison
I am not crying over the whipping of horses. I have been a race fan knowing and seeing this happen every race. I am just saying that along with having superior physical abilities,.....and the jockey expertly guding and whipping them.....that is the recipe for the wins.....not the "will of the horse to win" not "the heart of a champion"
that is just humans giving horses magical human traits so we feel that the animal is getting satisfaction from the "win" as well. They get satisfaction from being a "champion"..they really really want to win....just like us humans. Yes they get whipped, but then they are a "champion" with a "champions heart and will to win"...so its a yes/yes deal for every party involved
Quote: LarryShas no idea what a finish line is or that it was crossed....its ready to keep running.Its going and going hoping it doesnt receive pain.
So hope is more than just a human emotion?
Quote: Sabretom2So hope is more than just a human emotion?
not only do they hope, but if you catch them late at night, you can see them on their knees praying to their horse god so they will have enough strength and emotional energy to win the next days race. After the race they usually give a shout out to their horse god as well....and thank their mom.
They are of course emotional wrecks because since early in life they have been seperated from their mom and dad, but they perservere to be "champions", the broken home drives them to have a "desire to win" manmade races. They desperately want to win and feel the pride and the glory.
Heck after the big race, and they are overheated and tired, getting that big blanket of flowers thrown over the neck is a real treat. They love that. And we humans proclaim "look at that horse trotting around showing off those flowers"....because we all know how horses love to show off blankets of flowers that they cant even see.
And then when the horse is alone after the win in its quarters, he reflects on the win, and calculates in his mind how he can do better next time....because after all....Lebron James does that.
they are so much like humans....its incredible.
If you put a top hat on some horses, you would swearthey were fred astaire,
It's unnatural for horses to gallop at high speeds over long distances.
Race horses spent 23 hours a day or more in a 12x12 stall. Also unnatural. Nervous energy builds and builds then released on race day. The horses are simply expressing themselves physically
after an extended period of restraint.
Whipping a horse keeps most horses going. Doesn't hurt them......the horse believes a wild dog or tiger is nipping at it's hindquarters . Horses move away from pressure. Herd animals.
They have no concept of winning or losing.
"The outside of a horse is good for the inside of man"
Quote: treetopbuddyHorses are not smart. They are animals.....animals are not smart. They can't think.
It's unnatural for horses to gallop at high speeds over long distances.
Race horses spent 23 horses a day or more in a 12x12 stall. Also unnatural. Nervous energy builds and builds then released on race day. The horses are simply expressing themselves physically
after an extended period of restraint.
Whipping a horse keeps most horses going. Doesn't hurt them......the horse believes a wild dog or tiger is nipping at it's hindquarters . Horses move away from pressure. Herd animals.
They have no concept of winning or losing.
"The outside of a horse is good for the inside of man"
I tend to agree for the most part with you.
race horses are built from the ground up by humans. Mating the 2 horses, feeding the newborn special food that wouldnt be normally available in the wild in order to maximize growth and muscle tissue. Working the horses out, exercising htem, building up their muscle mass and lung capacity. Just like a mechanic carefuly building a race car.
By the time they are ready to race they have been built up physically, trained to respond to the whip and raced in trials with and without a gate.
They are physically superior equine specimins.
And then they put a jockey on its back that will make decisions to get it to the finish line through the path of least resistance.....and you have a winner. The combination of physical ability of the horse, and riding ability and decision making by the jockey. Just like with a race car. The best car wins unless the driver makes an error or cant overcome lousey post position.Or sometimes there is an unforseen mechanical failure.
Same with a horse. A jockey can make a poor decision, a horse can stumble or jump his shadow, a horse can have a headache( if horses get them like humans)
But one thing that doesnt come into play is the horeses "will to win" his "drive to be a champion", his "determination"..those are all human feelings that we bestow on horses
Quote: LarrySAlong with giving horses the human intellegence and thought processes..now someone is giving them superhuman qualities of tolerating whipping better than humans because horses must have no nerve endings in their "hide"/skin to let them know that their body is in danger, or to feel good when they get a hose turned on them or to feel heat when they are in the sun so they know to go to the shade. So whipping a horse is like tapping a human on the shoulder. All because those leather boots are so thick and really take alot of abuse.
Horse's live out on the Nevada range making no tents and or shelter 24/7. I'd wager you wouldn't make it with your skin and nothing else. You might even have to survive coyote bites once in awhile.
Quote: rxwineHorse's live out on the Nevada range making no tents and or shelter 24/7. I'd wager you wouldn't make it with your skin and nothing else. You might even have to survive coyote bites once in awhile.
If a horse is out in a field in the blazing sun. and a tree is available...they will walk over to the tree for shade. Horses do it, cows do it....maybe your leather boots dont feel the need to shield themselves from the sun. but the same nerve endings that protect the horse from excessive sunlight by causing an uncomfortable feeling....are the same nerve endings that make them feel pain from whips or dogbite.
its funny how people bestow human cognative qualities to horses like they have a heart of a champion, a great will to win, an understanding of the concept of winning, a warrior, as if when they retire they can become great motivational speakers.
But when you whip these humanlike creatures that have all these great human yearnings and aspirations....they dont feel humiliated to be treated this way in public?...I know I would. If they feel all these other noble feelings attributed to great atheletes....why dont they feel humiliation when they are whipped in public. Why dont they feel defiance and hatred to their owners/riders for inflicting pain and forcing them to race, But these virtuous creatures who want to win, crave winning, need to be a chamnpion......are whipped...and all we can do to justifyit is to suppose that it really doesnt hurt them....its like a tiny little mosquito bite...and they will gladly go through this voluntarily because they have great heart and will to win.
Again, I am a horse racing fan knowing about the whipping all along and am not cringing over it. Its just for those that give these horses all the human attributes of a dedicated athelete, the reasoning abilities to win, the will to win, the champions heart...its a little disingenuos to overlook the other side of the issue. That these human like beings are being whipped, and hauled around long distances in hot trailers, kept on site at the track in cloed quarters, and whipped to go faster. Then when it comes to all those things...they are just animals...they dont mind it at all.
Horses may not be smart in that they can think, reason or rasionalize but they do have some ability to think. I have seen it on a hundreds of occasions that horses keep on running second in races some run 2nd for 10 or 11 runs in a row.......some doubt their ability to win because of a weak heart or their instincts to always want to follow another animal. then on one fine warm day, the horse wins a race. He then, after winning said race will continue on winning races, sometimes one or two more, sometimes a whole slew more including in graded company. This from the same animal that "liked" to run 2nd to another horse on multiple occasions. What made him change his mind? What made him decide that this particular race was going to be the turnaround in his racing style? Some say that horses on occasion lack "confidence". I'm not sure which part of the brain is your "confidence" part but perhaps the horse simply needed to learn that he didn't always have to follow another but that he could lead the others too? That has to prove that a harse has the ability to learn which in turn has to point to some kind of brain activity. I mean the jock doesn't string a carrot to a stick and hangs it in front of the horse to make it go "fetch", does he?
Also LarryS in one of your previous posts you said that a blinkered horse cannot see horses in front of him? By definition that is exactly what blinkers do. They force a horse to ONLY look in front of him and not to the sides. It is often a cure for a horse who doesn't concentrate while running or who veers off to one side or another because he sees other horses and he wants to run with them (heard mentality).
I certainly don't think horses are the most intelligent animals on the planet but I do think they have some ability to use their brains, limited as it may be.
Treetopbuddy, you are right about them being beautiful and kind though......in fact, for me, the MOST beautiful and kind animals on the planet!
Quote: ontariodealerhorse sense is what keeps them from betting on people.
LOL
Quote: TomspurI don't have any reports to back up my statements and they are simply an opinion so if you don't agree with them, I respect that but you should also respect mine.
Horses may not be smart in that they can think, reason or rasionalize but they do have some ability to think. I have seen it on a hundreds of occasions that horses keep on running second in races some run 2nd for 10 or 11 runs in a row.......some doubt their ability to win because of a weak heart or their instincts to always want to follow another animal. then on one fine warm day, the horse wins a race. He then, after winning said race will continue on winning races, sometimes one or two more, sometimes a whole slew more including in graded company. This from the same animal that "liked" to run 2nd to another horse on multiple occasions. What made him change his mind? What made him decide that this particular race was going to be the turnaround in his racing style? Some say that horses on occasion lack "confidence". I'm not sure which part of the brain is your "confidence" part but perhaps the horse simply needed to learn that he didn't always have to follow another but that he could lead the others too? That has to prove that a harse has the ability to learn which in turn has to point to some kind of brain activity. I mean the jock doesn't string a carrot to a stick and hangs it in front of the horse to make it go "fetch", does he?
Also LarryS in one of your previous posts you said that a blinkered horse cannot see horses in front of him? By definition that is exactly what blinkers do. They force a horse to ONLY look in front of him and not to the sides. It is often a cure for a horse who doesn't concentrate while running or who veers off to one side or another because he sees other horses and he wants to run with them (heard mentality).
I certainly don't think horses are the most intelligent animals on the planet but I do think they have some ability to use their brains, limited as it may be.
Treetopbuddy, you are right about them being beautiful and kind though......in fact, for me, the MOST beautiful and kind animals on the planet!
Why would a horse who came in second 10 times in a row, and then comes in first 10 times in a row.....is it "confidence" or could it be:
it changed barns and trainers
it changes tracks...horses racing at Santa Anita...that get shipped to golden gate fields usually beat equal class horses there.
it had its diet changed
it had its vitamin supliments changed
it had its workout schedule changed
it increased muscle mass and is physically more fit from some of the above
its at the same track and class but just happens to be racing against lesser horses that he ran against in the first 10 races..or the horse is no longer racing against its regular nemesis that is just so much better
Blinkers restrict peripheral vision. If a horse is ahead of the horse with blinkers,..directly in front..the horse will see it.....or if the horse is way ahead of the horse with blinkers to the left or right....it will be within vision
But in a tight race......horses to the left or right lightly ahead of them is not seen. for example races won by a head, or a half length....the horse with blinkers may not have seen the other horse "win"
it has better sleeping accomodations and is happier because of it
it used to have a undetected gastro-intestinal issue that was discovered and fixed.
