Uncashed payout tickets could bring millions to the state
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 | 17 votes (62.96%) | ||
| | 10 votes (37.03%) |
27 members have voted
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:31:55 AM
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There is an article in the LVRJ today about a bill to have the millions in uncashed slot tickets go to the state of Nevada: Uncashed payout tickets could bring millions to the state.
I favor this, enthusiastically. First, I think it is greedy to have only a 60-day expiration on the tickets, as most places do. They could easily make it a year, which is the kind of basis many tourists visit Vegas. Second, I view it like a dormant bank account. If the owner can't be found the money doesn't go back to the bank, it goes to the state. Third, while most casinos do quietly honor expired tickets, I can't get over that sometimes they don't, and the same for expired winning sports tickets. Talk about greedy, geez! The casinos don't deserve the money.
The question for the poll is do you favor money from uncashed slot tickets going to the state?
I favor this, enthusiastically. First, I think it is greedy to have only a 60-day expiration on the tickets, as most places do. They could easily make it a year, which is the kind of basis many tourists visit Vegas. Second, I view it like a dormant bank account. If the owner can't be found the money doesn't go back to the bank, it goes to the state. Third, while most casinos do quietly honor expired tickets, I can't get over that sometimes they don't, and the same for expired winning sports tickets. Talk about greedy, geez! The casinos don't deserve the money.
The question for the poll is do you favor money from uncashed slot tickets going to the state?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:51:22 AM
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I have to disagree here. NJ (I think) is trying to do the same thing with gift cards. To me the bottom line is the winning ticket is a contract between the player and the casino. The player at least should know the rules going it-you have "x" days to claim your winnings. If not it is forefitted. The state should have no claim on such monies. If the NGB wants to mandate a minimum time tickets are good, say a year and a day, I would be fine with that. But the last thing we need is any state finding more money to take from private enterprise.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:51:38 AM
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I'll go a little further. I don't believe tickets should have ANY expiration date. They're the same as cash to that particular casino, and as long as that casino is open it should be redeemable. I'm sure all these variables came up when the industry developed TITO's, and no one's innocent. The casinos in Nevada wield so much power over every aspect of State Gov't. that, even though I strongly favor the change, I can't see this passing.
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:55:40 AM
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If they must have an expiration date, I feel the money should go to the state, mostly as an incentive to have the casinos extend the period of validity. If they don't get to keep the money they're more likely to give you a more reasonable window to redeem it. Most state lotteries give you 180 days. I might get to Vegas once every 6 months, so that's doable.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:01:36 AM
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Here's the problem:
A bet of any kind represents a contract made between the casino and the player. What right does the state have to any of that money?
A bet of any kind represents a contract made between the casino and the player. What right does the state have to any of that money?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:03:20 AM
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I can't say I'm in full support. Not that I feel strongly the other way either. It's rather that I believe there is no valid reason to have an "expiration date" on these, it's just another excuse to grab some extra cash. These tickets were implemented as a replacement for money, so they should be valid for at least as long as the casino, the company that owns the casino, or any company that has overtaken their property exists.
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March 23rd, 2011 at 8:41:40 AM
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Quote: NareedHere's the problem:
A bet of any kind represents a contract made between the casino and the player. What right does the state have to any of that money?
Just like a bank savings account is a contract between the bank and the depositor. Left unclaimed, the state will get it in the end.
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:47:10 AM
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Quote: RobSingerJust like a bank savings account is a contract between the bank and the depositor. Left unclaimed, the state will get it in the end.
And what claim does the state have over that money?
The difference is the state can legally back its claim with force.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 23rd, 2011 at 8:55:19 AM
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Quote: RobSingerJust like a bank savings account is a contract between the bank and the depositor. Left unclaimed, the state will get it in the end.
I don't think the bank savings account is a valid comparrison. With the ticket you made a bet and have a claim for a finite period of time, stated from the get-go. With a bank savings or checking account you are opening a going concern with no time limit. You in effect loaned money to the bank.
That being said, I don't care for the state taking that cash, either. I would prefer it go into some kind of secrow fund to help insure bank deposits or somehting. Similar to how retainer interest goes to the state bar association and not the law firm holding the cash. Government is worse than the mafia when it comes to trying to get their hands on someone else's cash.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:20:11 AM
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It's not the same, not even similar, for another reason. When the state claims a bank account, it has to give it back if you show up. It can't send you off if you show up.*
In the case of casino ticket expiration, you do show up and get sent off.
*Well, not legally, at least. In practice, the state will often seize deposit box contents and accounts as soon as it can, and return a less than fair value if and when forced to. But that's lawful crime, not the way it's meant to work.
In the case of casino ticket expiration, you do show up and get sent off.
*Well, not legally, at least. In practice, the state will often seize deposit box contents and accounts as soon as it can, and return a less than fair value if and when forced to. But that's lawful crime, not the way it's meant to work.
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March 23rd, 2011 at 9:29:39 AM
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The casinos aren't content with holding onto your winnings for a year, interest-free. They're taking it after 60 days. So if they have to surrender it to the state, they have a better incentive to hold it for you longer.
It's not perfect by far, but it's a better deal for the patrons. I doubt it will happen, but if it forces them to rethink their policies it's a good thing in my book.
It's not perfect by far, but it's a better deal for the patrons. I doubt it will happen, but if it forces them to rethink their policies it's a good thing in my book.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:35:58 AM
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I DO think the bank thing is a valid analogy.
The 'contract' with the bank is not merely that they will hold, maintain and earn interest with the money deposited, but that the customer will continue to add to it, or at least use it at some point.
Each time the account gets a deposit or withdrawal, that contract gets renewed. Once the customer falls off the face of the earth, at some point, something's gotta be done.
Similarly, at some point, an uncashed slot ticket has to be handled.
Let the casino keep it? Maybe, maybe not.
Give it to the state? What right do they have to it? Unlike an abandoned bank account, would the state allow a claim if the customer shows up with an old slot ticket?
As I write this, I am looking at the 1¢ ticket from Mohegan Sun that I have on my wall. I kept it rather than cashing it, really, just for laughs.
What should the casino do with that 1¢, and countless other uncashed tickets? I fully realized that they would keep it. Just another part of my contribution to the casino's bottom line.
But, my answer to this thread is: If the casino has a wishing well, give the slot ticket money to the same charity that the wishing well money goes to. If the casino keeps the wishing well money, then, and only then, should it be entitled to keep the abandoned slot money.
And I agree that 60 days is stupidly short. The ticket on my wall is good for 180 days. I'd make it more like two years!
The 'contract' with the bank is not merely that they will hold, maintain and earn interest with the money deposited, but that the customer will continue to add to it, or at least use it at some point.
Each time the account gets a deposit or withdrawal, that contract gets renewed. Once the customer falls off the face of the earth, at some point, something's gotta be done.
Similarly, at some point, an uncashed slot ticket has to be handled.
Let the casino keep it? Maybe, maybe not.
Give it to the state? What right do they have to it? Unlike an abandoned bank account, would the state allow a claim if the customer shows up with an old slot ticket?
As I write this, I am looking at the 1¢ ticket from Mohegan Sun that I have on my wall. I kept it rather than cashing it, really, just for laughs.
What should the casino do with that 1¢, and countless other uncashed tickets? I fully realized that they would keep it. Just another part of my contribution to the casino's bottom line.
But, my answer to this thread is: If the casino has a wishing well, give the slot ticket money to the same charity that the wishing well money goes to. If the casino keeps the wishing well money, then, and only then, should it be entitled to keep the abandoned slot money.
And I agree that 60 days is stupidly short. The ticket on my wall is good for 180 days. I'd make it more like two years!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 23rd, 2011 at 9:43:11 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearThe 'contract' with the bank is not merely that they will hold, maintain and earn interest with the money deposited, but that the customer will continue to add to it, or at least use it at some point.
I can't say that is true. There are many account contracts that don't even let you add to them. You have to pay extra (get marginally less interest) for the right to add.
Reading the contracts I have, none of them places any obligation of the sort on the customer. They place the obligation to notify them in advance before withdrawing more than $100,000, and a few others, but nothing about continuing to add to it or using it at some point.
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March 23rd, 2011 at 9:50:45 AM
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So at what point do they turn it over to the state? That's the contract.Quote: P90...but nothing about ... using it at some point.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 23rd, 2011 at 10:07:58 AM
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There are many differences. The most important one is that banks agree to manage your money while it's deposited with them. Casinos don't. Banks are financial institutions, which means they deal with money. Casinos aren't (sorry Dan, but they aren't). So a bank has to hold on to the customers' money while casinos have no such obligation.
In any case, the money belongs to a customer, not to the bank or the casino, and certainly not to the state which isn't even a part of the transaction. If the customer dies or otherwise abandons the money, then it belongs to his heirs or estate, not to the other party. Only if there are no heirs or estate, or if there is no way to track down the owner, is there a problem. The money then should revert to the bank or casino as the other party in the transaction, subject to being given to the customer if she ever claims it.
I fail to see any legitimacy to the state's claim.
In any case, the money belongs to a customer, not to the bank or the casino, and certainly not to the state which isn't even a part of the transaction. If the customer dies or otherwise abandons the money, then it belongs to his heirs or estate, not to the other party. Only if there are no heirs or estate, or if there is no way to track down the owner, is there a problem. The money then should revert to the bank or casino as the other party in the transaction, subject to being given to the customer if she ever claims it.
I fail to see any legitimacy to the state's claim.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 23rd, 2011 at 10:11:32 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearSo at what point do they turn it over to the state? That's the contract.
IDK, the contracts I've checked don't say anything of the sort. They say the contract will be renewed in perpetuity at current interest rate if I don't withdraw. So at no point do they have a legal right to do so.
But the only real law is that might makes right, and the state definitely has the might.
I suspect many of the state-stolen deposits could be returned via lawsuits, as some already have. The state takes its odds with most people not resorting to legal means (and even when they do, most of the legal costs go back to the state anyway).
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March 23rd, 2011 at 11:39:01 AM
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I say the state SHOULD get it...
However, I always carry cashout tickets, as I have a certain money set aside for gambling, and I keep it in the form of a cashout ticket, I continually play on the same ticket (technically not, because it prints me a new ticket when I cash out)
On a side note, I was upset because a lot of machines wouldn't allow more than $400 put in them (they'd reject any more money) Which lead to me using just the TITO because it would take a $1000 ticket...
However, I always carry cashout tickets, as I have a certain money set aside for gambling, and I keep it in the form of a cashout ticket, I continually play on the same ticket (technically not, because it prints me a new ticket when I cash out)
On a side note, I was upset because a lot of machines wouldn't allow more than $400 put in them (they'd reject any more money) Which lead to me using just the TITO because it would take a $1000 ticket...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
March 23rd, 2011 at 12:49:31 PM
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Come to think of it, uncashed slot and sports bet tickets could bring a lot of money to me. I've debts I'm paying and I could use the money for all sorts of other things. Now, I don't suggest casinos simply give me that money, but what if they were to gather all uncashed, expired tickets and hold a raffle among all patrons present at the time? One lucky winner takes all uncashed money.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 23rd, 2011 at 1:41:42 PM
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Some unorganized arguments:
-When a slot ticket expires, I would prefer if the money went to charity or to fund public works rather than lining the casino's pockets.
-Maybe the state wouldn't be considering this measure if the casinos hadn't been so greedy by putting an expiry date on tickets and keeping this money that they did not earn rather than giving it to charity (or casino personnel as tips).
-I imagine the gaming commission has had some complaints from players regarding expired slot tickets and casinos refusing to honour them.
-When I reflect on this, the greed of these casinos really becomes apparent. Imagine you had access to a bank account and that money continuously accumulated in the account without any need for you to deposit, it just grows on its own. You could never withdraw any of this money, but you are allowed to keep any interest it earns. What a deal! But no, this free interest in perpetuity wasn't enough for the greedy casinos!
-If this were to actually become law, maybe casinos will change their policies, extend expiration dates, or maybe even eliminate them altogether. I certainly hope so.
-The player should bear some responsibility here. There is no legitimate reason to not cash your tickets in when you leave. Even in the case of an extreme emergency where you had to leave the casino immediately, couldn't you just mail in the ticket to the casino for reimbursement?
-I've been on cruise ships where slot tickets expire at the end of the cruise. That could mean the ticket expires in as little as 4 hours! So worse expiry dates exist than in Vegas.
-How much money are we talking about here? How much does this contribute to an average casino's bottom line?
-Would the state take the same stance on casino chips that are not redeemed (when a casino changes its chips or closes shop)?
-When a slot ticket expires, I would prefer if the money went to charity or to fund public works rather than lining the casino's pockets.
-Maybe the state wouldn't be considering this measure if the casinos hadn't been so greedy by putting an expiry date on tickets and keeping this money that they did not earn rather than giving it to charity (or casino personnel as tips).
-I imagine the gaming commission has had some complaints from players regarding expired slot tickets and casinos refusing to honour them.
-When I reflect on this, the greed of these casinos really becomes apparent. Imagine you had access to a bank account and that money continuously accumulated in the account without any need for you to deposit, it just grows on its own. You could never withdraw any of this money, but you are allowed to keep any interest it earns. What a deal! But no, this free interest in perpetuity wasn't enough for the greedy casinos!
-If this were to actually become law, maybe casinos will change their policies, extend expiration dates, or maybe even eliminate them altogether. I certainly hope so.
-The player should bear some responsibility here. There is no legitimate reason to not cash your tickets in when you leave. Even in the case of an extreme emergency where you had to leave the casino immediately, couldn't you just mail in the ticket to the casino for reimbursement?
-I've been on cruise ships where slot tickets expire at the end of the cruise. That could mean the ticket expires in as little as 4 hours! So worse expiry dates exist than in Vegas.
-How much money are we talking about here? How much does this contribute to an average casino's bottom line?
-Would the state take the same stance on casino chips that are not redeemed (when a casino changes its chips or closes shop)?
March 23rd, 2011 at 1:58:46 PM
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Should they? Absolutely not, it's bullshit. They can probably get away with it though and nobody in the general public is going to make a huge fuss (especially you locals).
Currently if you have an expired slot ticket are you completely screwed or do casinos work with you?
Currently if you have an expired slot ticket are you completely screwed or do casinos work with you?
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:03:01 PM
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Technically, the money doesn't need to go anywhere.
Fiat money doesn't have any intrinsic value that needs preserving. There isn't even the value of permanent scarcity that gold used to have [before it became an industrial metal]. New money is being printed all the time, creating inflation, and a smaller amount of old money is being removed from circulation. It's an artificial construct that only has value in relation to itself, serving to divide the resources.
As such, there is no need to seize unclaimed fiat money, as there would be with gold. Its removal from circulation will simply gradually distribute its value among the remaining supply. A large amount of unclaimed currency will not be potentially disruptive either, as without earning interest it will gradually dissolve among the permanently inflating supply.
The reason unclaimed money is being seized by companies or by states (note, not the feds) is that there is opportunity to the one who grabs it to carve out a larger piece of the global pie.
Fiat money doesn't have any intrinsic value that needs preserving. There isn't even the value of permanent scarcity that gold used to have [before it became an industrial metal]. New money is being printed all the time, creating inflation, and a smaller amount of old money is being removed from circulation. It's an artificial construct that only has value in relation to itself, serving to divide the resources.
As such, there is no need to seize unclaimed fiat money, as there would be with gold. Its removal from circulation will simply gradually distribute its value among the remaining supply. A large amount of unclaimed currency will not be potentially disruptive either, as without earning interest it will gradually dissolve among the permanently inflating supply.
The reason unclaimed money is being seized by companies or by states (note, not the feds) is that there is opportunity to the one who grabs it to carve out a larger piece of the global pie.
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March 23rd, 2011 at 2:16:31 PM
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I don't live in Nevada and I've come home with probably a hundred tickets over the years that expired by the next time I went to that particular casino again. I've always been able to cash them in, and maybe 20% of the time I had a little hassle. You don't go to some DMV-type cashier who's trained to just say no if they're expired. As a player of any status with a slot club card you go to the high-limit room and show it to the host on duty even if it's 3 bucks. Again, it's all a game and you have to play it right. No one who's in charge of anything and who isn't actively out looking for another job wants to be the reason for your continued complaining and/or your refusal to play in their casino again.
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:40:05 PM
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Wouldn't casinos have to show the unclaimed tickets as Accounts Payable? I can see them wanting to get those off the books at some point. 1 year seems reasonable to me.
I can also see the state wanting to grab the unclaimed $. If it is made available upon presentation of the ticket, sure that works. But how long does the state have to hold it before they get to just use it for other purposes?
I can also see the state wanting to grab the unclaimed $. If it is made available upon presentation of the ticket, sure that works. But how long does the state have to hold it before they get to just use it for other purposes?
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:52:20 PM
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Quote: P90
The reason unclaimed money is being seized by companies or by states (note, not the feds) is that there is opportunity to the one who grabs it to carve out a larger piece of the global pie.
Yes. We do realize that there is no fundamental change to the human condition.
Quote: slytherWouldn't casinos have to show the unclaimed tickets as Accounts Payable? I can see them wanting to get those off the books at some point. 1 year seems reasonable to me.
The Wizard's point was that there is no reason for it to be 60 days since many people only come once a year. One year is reasonable.
March 23rd, 2011 at 2:54:30 PM
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Question: Why would anyone let slot tickets expire?
When I'm done playing on one machine I'll either put the ticket in another one or, more likely, cash it out. I'd never thought to hang on to the ticket and redeem it another time.
I understand someone might place a sports bet that won't be resolved until long after they've left Vegas. But that's another matter entirely.
When I'm done playing on one machine I'll either put the ticket in another one or, more likely, cash it out. I'd never thought to hang on to the ticket and redeem it another time.
I understand someone might place a sports bet that won't be resolved until long after they've left Vegas. But that's another matter entirely.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 23rd, 2011 at 3:07:40 PM
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Quote: NareedQuestion: Why would anyone let slot tickets expire?
When I'm done playing on one machine I'll either put the ticket in another one or, more likely, cash it out. I'd never thought to hang on to the ticket and redeem it another time.
I understand someone might place a sports bet that won't be resolved until long after they've left Vegas. But that's another matter entirely.
Most people don't let them expire on purpose. For someone like me who's had quite a few of them as explained earlier, I cash out a lot and put them in a pack I carry. As time goes by it's easy to forget them regardless of value. I've had $3 tickets as well as $1700 tickets expire.
March 23rd, 2011 at 5:07:09 PM
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Quote: NareedQuestion: Why would anyone let slot tickets expire?
Me.
When I'm done I usually put the ticket in my wallet to cash later, and then forget about it. Here are the five tickets currently on my bulletin board. I admit I'm lazy about cashing tickets, and complacent because I know that casinos almost always honor them. I'm embarrassed to say one is from 2008 and one from 2009.
Click on image for larger version.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 23rd, 2011 at 5:29:29 PM
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It's "unclaimed property" as described. I don't think anyone made a contract for the casino to hold on to it if you forget it, and if they did, it's unwritten and disputable.
I don't know how it should be resolved, but estimated 50 million -- sure the casinos will be glad to keep it, they're not stupid.
I don't know how it should be resolved, but estimated 50 million -- sure the casinos will be glad to keep it, they're not stupid.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:01:49 PM
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Quote: rxwineIt's "unclaimed property" as described. I don't think anyone made a contract for the casino to hold on to it if you forget it, and if they did, it's unwritten and disputable.
I don't know how it should be resolved, but estimated 50 million -- sure the casinos will be glad to keep it, they're not stupid.
Well said. I do view the ticket as a contract for the casino to hold onto your money until you claim it. If the ticket expires there is indeed no contract that says the casino gets to keep the money. The general rule is unclaimed property goes to the state.
I do agree that the casinos will fight vehemently against this. Many believe, including me, that they have enormous sway in state politics, so I wouldn't expect this to go against them. One can hope though. It would be nice to see the expiration period on slot tickets and sports tickets increased beyond the current 30 day minimum, perhaps in the interest of compromise.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 23rd, 2011 at 7:21:04 PM
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Quote: WizardThird, while most casinos do quietly honor expired tickets, I can't get over that sometimes they don't, and the same for expired winning sports tickets. Talk about greedy, geez!
Nothing surprises me when it comes to casino greed. A few years ago I was playing Rapid Roulette at the Rio and it screwed up and didn't credit the players on a win. The suit didn't want to credit us because he said it was a bad spin. Some of us raised so much hell that he gave in. We're talking about $50 total here, you'd think it was $5000. He had to go thru so many people to get permission to credit us that it took almost 30min. For a lousy 50 bucks that we immediately gave back to them anyway. Casinos sweat every dime, greed is their middle name.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
March 24th, 2011 at 1:45:29 AM
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Here's my question about these tickets.
Technically, unlike a bet, you can put legal tender in a machine, hit the cashout button without making a bet.
When you cash it out, is it automatically assumed you agree to whatever is printed on that paper? Maybe it could say you agree to go wash dishes in the buffet?
If you're Joe Blow on his first legal birthday to gamble you can stick some cash in the machines and whenever you cash out, you agree to whatever the terms specify even before you know them? Seems like an unusual type of contract.
So, you give them money, and get it back with an expiration date, even if you did nothing but put it in the machine and decide not to play. Maybe that's all under caveat emptor, and the casino can do as it wishes once you put your money in. But again, I don't know.
Technically, unlike a bet, you can put legal tender in a machine, hit the cashout button without making a bet.
When you cash it out, is it automatically assumed you agree to whatever is printed on that paper? Maybe it could say you agree to go wash dishes in the buffet?
If you're Joe Blow on his first legal birthday to gamble you can stick some cash in the machines and whenever you cash out, you agree to whatever the terms specify even before you know them? Seems like an unusual type of contract.
So, you give them money, and get it back with an expiration date, even if you did nothing but put it in the machine and decide not to play. Maybe that's all under caveat emptor, and the casino can do as it wishes once you put your money in. But again, I don't know.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
March 24th, 2011 at 4:28:53 AM
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Good point, except the terms ARE posted. Somewhere. Or available if you ask.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 24th, 2011 at 6:13:22 AM
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Quote: WizardMe.
When I'm done I usually put the ticket in my wallet to cash later, and then forget about it. Here are the five tickets currently on my bulletin board. I admit I'm lazy about cashing tickets, and complacent because I know that casinos almost always honor them. I'm embarrassed to say one is from 2008 and one from 2009.
The $.41 you could better use to give to the next allegedly homeless person to get rid of them, maybe?
I once ran a VP machine down to $.05 and gave it to my buddy already in line to cash out. I wanted to see the look on his face when the cashier saw someone cash out for $.05. He saw the amount and threw the ticket away first. Would have been halarious.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
March 24th, 2011 at 6:32:36 AM
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Something to think about - the casino has to give a portion of their revenues to the state (at least in Arizona, they do) as well as different types of taxes. When they do audits to check on what the revenues are for the day, they go through each individual slot machine's record to see, for example (obviously just a fake example):
Coin in - $100,000
Paid Out - $90,000
Total Win - $10,000
So, judging by these numbers, there were $100,000 worth of cash or tickets put into the machine, with $90,000 in tickets paid out. However, that $10,000 total win is likely a little higher because of uncashed tickets. The casino must come up with a revenue number so that they can pay their x% to the state. I could see the casino take the stance that the tickets are still "in action" until cashed, to attempt to circumvent any extra tax they must pay. If they can find a way to make those expire, in theory, wouldn't they also save money on the tax as well? Couldn't they consider that a player "win", therefore lowering their unofficial profit, while not having to pay out for that ticket, saving them money?
The casinos out here no longer have change-dispensing ticket redemption machines, so anything that's not a whole dollar comes back in a ticket which must be redeemed at the cashier. Was that an attempt by the casino to skim all of those .34c tickets or was it simply more efficient to not have to refill change hoppers all over the place? Probably a bit of both, I'd wager.
Coin in - $100,000
Paid Out - $90,000
Total Win - $10,000
So, judging by these numbers, there were $100,000 worth of cash or tickets put into the machine, with $90,000 in tickets paid out. However, that $10,000 total win is likely a little higher because of uncashed tickets. The casino must come up with a revenue number so that they can pay their x% to the state. I could see the casino take the stance that the tickets are still "in action" until cashed, to attempt to circumvent any extra tax they must pay. If they can find a way to make those expire, in theory, wouldn't they also save money on the tax as well? Couldn't they consider that a player "win", therefore lowering their unofficial profit, while not having to pay out for that ticket, saving them money?
The casinos out here no longer have change-dispensing ticket redemption machines, so anything that's not a whole dollar comes back in a ticket which must be redeemed at the cashier. Was that an attempt by the casino to skim all of those .34c tickets or was it simply more efficient to not have to refill change hoppers all over the place? Probably a bit of both, I'd wager.
Founder and Editor-in-Chief, GamblersGrind.com and HoopsHabit.com.
March 24th, 2011 at 7:32:05 AM
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Quote: iambabydI could see the casino take the stance that the tickets are still "in action" until cashed, to attempt to circumvent any extra tax they must pay. If they can find a way to make those expire, in theory, wouldn't they also save money on the tax as well? Couldn't they consider that a player "win", therefore lowering their unofficial profit, while not having to pay out for that ticket, saving them money?
The casinos out here no longer have change-dispensing ticket redemption machines, so anything that's not a whole dollar comes back in a ticket which must be redeemed at the cashier. Was that an attempt by the casino to skim all of those .34c tickets or was it simply more efficient to not have to refill change hoppers all over the place? Probably a bit of both, I'd wager.
I don't think they could make the "in action" thing work. From the state's prespective the ticket should me (IMHO) a cash equivalent. If you pay in cash, tickets, or tokens no matter, the play is over and (coin in) - (coin out) = (hold.) Then in PA take . 55 * (hold) = (tax liability.) Your state will differ in % but not procedure.
There will then be an account for unclaimed ticlets. Form an accounting point of view (less taxes) the transactions would go:
Coin-in $100 then player plays and cashes out for $40
Credit SALES/SLOTS for $60
Debit CASH for $60
Credit UNCLIAMED TICKET LIABILITY for $40
Debit CASH for $40
So we have now accounted for revenue to the casino of $60 and also the $40 in cash waiting to be claimed
When the ticket is calimed (maybe minutes later)
Debit UNCLAIMED TICKET LIABILITY for $40
Credit CASH for $40
Now the books are clear. However, note that the "win" and "cashout" are totally distinct and seperate transactions, with the unclaimed ticket as a liability.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
March 24th, 2011 at 7:59:25 AM
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Quote: WizardMe.
I didn't ask who :P
Quote:When I'm done I usually put the ticket in my wallet to cash later, and then forget about it.
That's what I don't get. Why cash it later? These are the possibilities I see:
1) You'll remain at the casino and play another VP machine (I assume you don't play slots). If so, then use the ticket on the new machine.
2) You'll remain at the casino but play something other than VP. In that case, cash out the ticket before hitting the tables
3) You're leaving the casino. Well, if so why not cash the ticket then, rather than having to make a return trip later?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 24th, 2011 at 8:22:28 AM
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Quote: NareedI didn't ask who :P
That's what I don't get. Why cash it later? These are the possibilities I see:
1) You'll remain at the casino and play another VP machine (I assume you don't play slots). If so, then use the ticket on the new machine.
2) You'll remain at the casino but play something other than VP. In that case, cash out the ticket before hitting the tables
3) You're leaving the casino. Well, if so why not cash the ticket then, rather than having to make a return trip later?
Nareed, you're looking at this from a different point of view. There's two types of players who play the machines. One is those who are counting every penny because they really can't afford to lose anything, and they're just in the casino taking a chance at hitting it big. These people will make sure they cash every penny of every ticket because they really need to. The other has money to gamble with and money laying around that can be used for this or that. So if tickets are piled up in a wallet and forgotten it's no big deal--life will go on and they'll be cashed the next time if they're remembered.
March 24th, 2011 at 8:38:51 AM
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Quote: Nareed
That's what I don't get. Why cash it later? These are the possibilities I see:
1) You'll remain at the casino and play another VP machine (I assume you don't play slots). If so, then use the ticket on the new machine.
2) You'll remain at the casino but play something other than VP. In that case, cash out the ticket before hitting the tables
3) You're leaving the casino. Well, if so why not cash the ticket then, rather than having to make a return trip later?
Last time my sister and I were in AC, she put a twenty into a slot and hit a bonus, so she had $175 in credits. She cashed out so she wouldn't blow the whole $175 because that's what you end up doing, and put in another $20. We went to eat, then played some more that night, then the next morning we packed and got breakfast and went for one last session before checking out, then I was going to get the bags while she went to get the car, and I reminded her to cash out her voucher before leaving. She had totally forgotten about it! We had at least 2 playing sessions between the time she printed the ticket and the time she cashed it but she knew if she put it into a machine she'd spend it all.
I read somewhere they're photosensitive, so I get my money before they become unreadable. I'd hate to leave one on a table in the room in front of a window and come back to find a blackened slip with an illegible barcode.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
March 24th, 2011 at 8:40:17 AM
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Quote: RobSingerNareed, you're looking at this from a different point of view. There's two types of players who play the machines. One is those who are counting every penny because they really can't afford to lose anything, and they're just in the casino taking a chance at hitting it big.
Anyone who can't afford to lose anything shouldn't gamble to begin with.
Quote:The other has money to gamble with and money laying around that can be used for this or that. So if tickets are piled up in a wallet and forgotten it's no big deal--life will go on and they'll be cashed the next time if they're remembered.
There are two things wrong with your statement:
1) You're responsible for your money. If you don't care enough about it to secure it, then what difference does it make where it ends up?
2) Even if a slot ticket isn't a big deal, time is a big deal for most people. So why exchange lost time for money you don't care that much about by having to make a return trip to a casino?
I never gamble more than I can afford to lose, yet I keep track of all my slot tickets and cash them out. The only one I dind't cash out was a $0.01 ticket left over a slot machine at the Rio. i decided it was more valuable as a souvenir.
Here's a thought. Let's set up a hypothetical casino that has paired ticket machines. One is the regular kind that redeems your ticket. The other takes your ticket and transfers the money to the state's treasury. How many people would feed their tickets, on purpose, to the second machine?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 24th, 2011 at 8:50:25 AM
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Quote: Nareed
1) You're responsible for your money. If you don't care enough about it to secure it, then what difference does it make where it ends up?
The first time I ever went to Vegas, we flew in for a big trip to the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone and we brought along my niece so we needed a really big room, so we stayed at the Venetian. We had just gotten all the kids to bed when the phone rang, and it was security asking if we were using the safe. I said we weren't and it was closed anyway so we couldn't, and they came up and opened it and took out an envelope and looked inside and said, "I can't imagine forgetting about this much money!"
I wonder how much it was. As it says in The Great Gatsby, the very rich are different from you and me.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
March 24th, 2011 at 8:51:22 AM
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Quote: FarFromVegasLast time my sister and I were in AC, she put a twenty into a slot and hit a bonus, so she had $175 in credits. She cashed out so she wouldn't blow the whole $175 because that's what you end up doing, and put in another $20.
I did that while playing NSUD last March with teddys and the Wizard (though the Wizard had already left by then). Only I was playing $100 and the ticket was for about $165 or so. I lost only a little from the fresh $100 by the time we decided to leave. So I cashed out both tickets.
Quote:She had totally forgotten about it! We had at least 2 playing sessions between the time she printed the ticket and the time she cashed it but she knew if she put it into a machine she'd spend it all.
I can see that happening. Once or twice. I can't see it becoming a habit, especially for tourists.
Quote:I read somewhere they're photosensitive, so I get my money before they become unreadable. I'd hate to leave one on a table in the room in front of a window and come back to find a blackened slip with an illegible barcode.
I don't recall offhand, but I think they're ink printed on bond paper, not just marked thermal paper like that used in fax machines. Thermal paper isn't photosensitive, it's heat sensititve. Leave it out in the sun, though, and it will go dark and unreadable.
We keep going back to: cash your tickets when you're done playing.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 24th, 2011 at 8:58:37 AM
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Quote: NareedAnyone who can't afford to lose anything shouldn't gamble to begin with.
There are two things wrong with your statement:
1) You're responsible for your money. If you don't care enough about it to secure it, then what difference does it make where it ends up?
2) Even if a slot ticket isn't a big deal, time is a big deal for most people. So why exchange lost time for money you don't care that much about by having to make a return trip to a casino?
I never gamble more than I can afford to lose, yet I keep track of all my slot tickets and cash them out. The only one I dind't cash out was a $0.01 ticket left over a slot machine at the Rio. i decided it was more valuable as a souvenir.
Here's a thought. Let's set up a hypothetical casino that has paired ticket machines. One is the regular kind that redeems your ticket. The other takes your ticket and transfers the money to the state's treasury. How many people would feed their tickets, on purpose, to the second machine?
You seem confused--at least to the extent that you don't see how other people may react to their tickets.
Casinos are full of people who shouldn't gamble. Your statement is true, but as a rebuttal to the fact that these type of people will make sure every last ticket is cashed in, it misses the mark.
1) & 2): Believe it or not, some people don't have cashing in all their tickets before leaving as a prioroty when gambling. They may have to meet with someone for a meal, they may be short on time and have to go, and/or they may just not want to look for a redemption machine or wait in a cashier line. And players who go to casinos regularly will be back when there's a list of reasons for them to go back. Just because there's an uncashed ticket alone is usually not enough reason for regulars to go scrambling back in.
Your hypothetical situation doesn't really approach my reality. As I said, I've cashed in over a hundred expired tickets and have never had one rejected. I think the ones you're talking about that make it to the state treasury are the ones people throw away or truly lose/forget about them.
March 24th, 2011 at 9:34:27 AM
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I often go play for a bit, take out $20 from the machine and go for a beer, or hit the tables or wonder around or do one of the 137 things I like doing in Vegas that isn't being tied to a VP machine. Ticket into wallet. Often cos' I know I'm likely to be shoving that ticket back in later on in the same casino. Never went home with an uncashed ticket, but found a bunch on last day I'd forgotten about and then cashed them out on way to Taxi.
And I am sure I'm more organised than other people.
I'd have a hard time not cashing a several hundred dollar ticket out instantly (though depending if my buddies were around I might want to show the evidence first... ;))
And I am sure I'm more organised than other people.
I'd have a hard time not cashing a several hundred dollar ticket out instantly (though depending if my buddies were around I might want to show the evidence first... ;))
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
March 24th, 2011 at 9:52:33 AM
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Quote: RobSingerYou seem confused--at least to the extent that you don't see how other people may react to their tickets.
And you just can't wait to get hostile, can you? People can have a difference of opinion. Don't mistake that for confussion.
Quote:Casinos are full of people who shouldn't gamble. Your statement is true, but as a rebuttal to the fact that these type of people will make sure every last ticket is cashed in, it misses the mark.
My point is who cares what such people do. They start with one of the worse decisions one can make, to risk money they can't afford on a frivolous pursuit. Do you expect any rational decisions then?
Quote:1) & 2): Believe it or not, some people don't have cashing in all their tickets before leaving as a prioroty when gambling.
So? If they don't care or are not willing to take responsibility for their money, then why would thay care where it ends up? If they want to donate it to the state government, they can do so directly.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 24th, 2011 at 9:58:13 AM
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Quote: thecesspitAnd I am sure I'm more organised than other people.
I'm not organized at all, and I have the messy desk to prove it. But when it comes to money, mine or someone else's, I'm very careful. I always cash out before leaving the casino, if there is something to cash out, and I always look in the room safe before checking out.
I've lost money gambling, I've wasted money on stupid purchases, I've even been robbed at gun point, but I've never lost or forgotten any money in my care.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 24th, 2011 at 10:15:45 AM
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That could be part of the reason the casinos put a short expiration date on it - to encourage it to be cashed while it's still readable!Quote: FarFromVegasI read somewhere they're photosensitive, so I get my money before they become unreadable. I'd hate to leave one on a table in the room in front of a window and come back to find a blackened slip with an illegible barcode.
Note that even if the machines have trouble reading the bar code, there is a code that correspond to the bar code. So even if the papter turns brown, as long as a clerk can see the code to type it in, the ticket is cashable.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 24th, 2011 at 10:40:01 AM
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Quote: NareedWe keep going back to: cash your tickets when you're done playing.
The line was too long. I'll cash them in the morning.
March 24th, 2011 at 1:02:52 PM
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Maybe if the tickets expired in 120 minutes, people wouldn't be so casual about cashing them.
So there :P
The linked article mentioned mostly smaller tickets people don't bother to cash out. That's their choice. But if you choose not to cash out a ticket for $2.20 or $5, or whatever, then don't complain the casino keeps the money. Likewise if you're carelss or forgetful with a ticket that is, in effect, the equivalent of cash money, don't complain if you lose it and the casino keeps the money.
And in all cases, I fail to see why the state has any valid claim to uncashed tickets.
So there :P
The linked article mentioned mostly smaller tickets people don't bother to cash out. That's their choice. But if you choose not to cash out a ticket for $2.20 or $5, or whatever, then don't complain the casino keeps the money. Likewise if you're carelss or forgetful with a ticket that is, in effect, the equivalent of cash money, don't complain if you lose it and the casino keeps the money.
And in all cases, I fail to see why the state has any valid claim to uncashed tickets.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 24th, 2011 at 1:23:23 PM
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Quote: NareedAnd you just can't wait to get hostile, can you? People can have a difference of opinion. Don't mistake that for confussion.
Wow how sensitive. My opinion was you were confused because you're only seeing the issue from your point of view and so far have shown an inability to see it (or maybe explain it) from any other. In other words, I do not see a difference of opinion yet.
March 24th, 2011 at 1:29:01 PM
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Quote: NareedAnd in all cases, I fail to see why the state has any valid claim to uncashed tickets.
The casino won't give it back(or at least they don't have to currently with Exp dates), the state will if you claim it.
I don't know why you favor the casino keeping money they didn't earn.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
