thegreatrambino
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Mission146
September 22nd, 2023 at 3:35:53 PM permalink
Hi all!

I am just starting to get into slot AP play, and I had a question regarding players cards. There are certain machines (must-hit-bys, games with explicit spin cycles, etc.) where you could play with your card up to the spin before the bonus or whatever was due to hit, remove the card, then play that spin. Seemingly, this would reduce the amount of winnings shown on your player card, and could potentially lead to better comps/extra longevity, no? Are there any potential pitfalls to this idea that I am missing? Is it not even worth the extra effort?
heatmap
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September 22nd, 2023 at 3:56:19 PM permalink
ChumpChange
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September 22nd, 2023 at 4:01:57 PM permalink
If you're trying to fudge your win/loss statement, yeah just find a really bad bad luck streak and have your card in for that but as soon as you're ready for the good luck, take your card out. You'll be a loss leader and get the comps, but if you kept your card in longer you could have gotten a burger for your trouble. So it's either the lousy win/loss statement or the good burger. You can't have both.
darkoz
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September 22nd, 2023 at 4:04:59 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap


link to original post



I was thinking the same thing.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
thegreatrambino
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September 22nd, 2023 at 4:14:58 PM permalink
I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
Zcore13
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September 22nd, 2023 at 4:34:55 PM permalink
Quote: thegreatrambino

I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
link to original post



Possibly, but probably not. Almost all slots know how much you will win the second you push the spin button. This includes bonus wins and spins. It may credit you for that full amount immediately and the rest is just show. There are some exceptions where your choices in a bonus round make a difference, but those type of machines are very rare these days.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
darkoz
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AxelWolfMission146
September 22nd, 2023 at 5:34:10 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: thegreatrambino

I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
link to original post



Possibly, but probably not. Almost all slots know how much you will win the second you push the spin button. This includes bonus wins and spins. It may credit you for that full amount immediately and the rest is just show. There are some exceptions where your choices in a bonus round make a difference, but those type of machines are very rare these days.


ZCore13
link to original post



Life is wonderful!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Dieter
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September 22nd, 2023 at 5:52:38 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: thegreatrambino

I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
link to original post



Possibly, but probably not. Almost all slots know how much you will win the second you push the spin button. This includes bonus wins and spins. It may credit you for that full amount immediately and the rest is just show. There are some exceptions where your choices in a bonus round make a difference, but those type of machines are very rare these days.


ZCore13
link to original post



My understanding is that modern player tracking systems are able to remember which card was inserted and active when the game was initiated at the game's conclusion - whether the game takes a few seconds or an hour to conclude.

If you "know" that the next game will be a sizeable win, it should be possible to remove a player card before initiating the game.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
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Mission146onenickelmiracle
September 22nd, 2023 at 6:05:38 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: thegreatrambino

I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
link to original post



Possibly, but probably not. Almost all slots know how much you will win the second you push the spin button. This includes bonus wins and spins. It may credit you for that full amount immediately and the rest is just show. There are some exceptions where your choices in a bonus round make a difference, but those type of machines are very rare these days.


ZCore13
link to original post

This is why casino employees work for casinos and Advantage Players work for themselves making money from the casinos.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FinsRule
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September 22nd, 2023 at 6:50:43 PM permalink
I don’t know why no one will answer your question.

Do casinos even track slot APs?
Zcore13
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September 22nd, 2023 at 7:50:49 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: thegreatrambino

I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
link to original post



Possibly, but probably not. Almost all slots know how much you will win the second you push the spin button. This includes bonus wins and spins. It may credit you for that full amount immediately and the rest is just show. There are some exceptions where your choices in a bonus round make a difference, but those type of machines are very rare these days.


ZCore13
link to original post

This is why casino employees work for casinos and Advantage Players work for themselves making money from the casinos.
link to original post



I dont work in slots, which is why I said "may". Funny how AP's or those that think they are, always have to make a point of insinuating how smart they are compared to the other side. 99% of casino employees couldn't care less about AP. Just like most other professions, it's just their job to pay jackpots, service machines, clean up, serve people, watch games, deal games, make players cards, etc, etc, etc. There might be 5-10 people on the casino floor at any time that care what or how someone play or does, as long as it's legal.

I've said dozens of times, I don't care about table games AP's one way or another. It's my/our job to create rules and procedures that keep the game played fair. If an AP finds a way to gain an advantage, (other than breaking the play rules or a law) that's the fault of Table Games. If a card counter beats us and we don't catch it, great job card counter. If someone sees the whole card on a dealer, bad job dealer.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
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September 22nd, 2023 at 8:02:47 PM permalink
I've heard hearsay stories of advantage slot players being kicked out of casinos, but I have to wonder if something else is going on there. I wonder if those people are particularly obnoxious about it, like sitting at a machine all day long staring at a bank of machines behind them waiting for people to get off (and thereby taking up the seat of the slot machine they aren't even playing) and possibly getting aggressive with the people playing by asking them to get off, or being aggressive with other people who are also camping and risk taking "their" machine once the ploppy quits. I find it hard to believe that a casino would just kick out a normal person who checks machines for good plays in a non-intrusive way. I mean sheesh slot manufacturers are making machines these days that literally display what the current collection number is for each bet on the bet screen to entice people to play it! How can a casino kick out someone for doing what the slot machines are designed to do?
AxelWolf
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September 22nd, 2023 at 8:19:12 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: thegreatrambino

I seem to have stumbled upon a sensitive subject here, huh?
link to original post



Possibly, but probably not. Almost all slots know how much you will win the second you push the spin button. This includes bonus wins and spins. It may credit you for that full amount immediately and the rest is just show. There are some exceptions where your choices in a bonus round make a difference, but those type of machines are very rare these days.


ZCore13
link to original post

This is why casino employees work for casinos and Advantage Players work for themselves making money from the casinos.
link to original post



I dont work in slots, which is why I said "may". Funny how AP's or those that think they are, always have to make a point of insinuating how smart they are compared to the other side. 99% of casino employees couldn't care less about AP. Just like most other professions, it's just their job to pay jackpots, service machines, clean up, serve people, watch games, deal games, make players cards, etc, etc, etc. There might be 5-10 people on the casino floor at any time that care what or how someone play or does, as long as it's legal.

I've said dozens of times, I don't care about table games AP's one way or another. It's my/our job to create rules and procedures that keep the game played fair. If an AP finds a way to gain an advantage, (other than breaking the play rules or a law) that's the fault of Table Games. If a card counter beats us and we don't catch it, great job card counter. If someone sees the whole card on a dealer, bad job dealer.


ZCore13
link to original post

I think you read too much into that. As far as the being or not being smart part. Obviously, there are very smart and dumb individuals working in Casinos and as Advantage players (Some actually do both). Advantage players just think differently with a desire and interest in beating the casinos.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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September 22nd, 2023 at 8:29:04 PM permalink
Quote: McSweeney

I've heard hearsay stories of advantage slot players being kicked out of casinos, but I have to wonder if something else is going on there. I wonder if those people are particularly obnoxious about it, like sitting at a machine all day long staring at a bank of machines behind them waiting for people to get off (and thereby taking up the seat of the slot machine they aren't even playing) and possibly getting aggressive with the people playing by asking them to get off, or being aggressive with other people who are also camping and risk taking "their" machine once the ploppy quits. I find it hard to believe that a casino would just kick out a normal person who checks machines for good plays in a non-intrusive way. I mean sheesh slot manufacturers are making machines these days that literally display what the current collection number is for each bet on the bet screen to entice people to play it! How can a casino kick out someone for doing what the slot machines are designed to do?
link to original post

I don't really vulture much, however, legitimate normal people who check machines for good plays in a non-intrusive way do get kicked out. But that's probably mostly because of those people who are particularly obnoxious about it in the first place. There are too many factors going on, e.g. a jealous miserable security guard overstepping.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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thegreatrambino
September 23rd, 2023 at 8:24:49 AM permalink
(This post has been edited as it has been read by the intended recipient; the information is a bit too sensitive to leave up for too long, even though I didn't spell anything out.)
Last edited by: Mission146 on Sep 23, 2023
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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September 23rd, 2023 at 8:26:50 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I don’t know why no one will answer your question.

Do casinos even track slot APs?
link to original post



Well, we certainly try to avoid them knowing what we are doing, or that we are AP's.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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September 23rd, 2023 at 8:37:22 AM permalink
Quote: McSweeney

I've heard hearsay stories of advantage slot players being kicked out of casinos, but I have to wonder if something else is going on there. I wonder if those people are particularly obnoxious about it, like sitting at a machine all day long staring at a bank of machines behind them waiting for people to get off (and thereby taking up the seat of the slot machine they aren't even playing) and possibly getting aggressive with the people playing by asking them to get off, or being aggressive with other people who are also camping and risk taking "their" machine once the ploppy quits. I find it hard to believe that a casino would just kick out a normal person who checks machines for good plays in a non-intrusive way. I mean sheesh slot manufacturers are making machines these days that literally display what the current collection number is for each bet on the bet screen to entice people to play it! How can a casino kick out someone for doing what the slot machines are designed to do?
link to original post



I've been kicked out of several casinos and I'm not as active in this realm as most other people are. Of course, I knew I was coming in with some potentially hot cards on two different occasions. On one of those occasions, it was really more a question of when than it was a question of if.

The funny thing about that play was someone came out to a non-LV casino all the way from LV (after everyone else on the play had gotten popped already---except for the people who had to leave to do other things anyway) and he got popped on his first or second card. Can you imagine that? That's fine. I got popped on two cards in Atlantic City once---and one of them was mine!!! It's all in good fun. I like driving and blasting music anyway.

Of course, if you're talking about vulturing, I have never been kicked out ONLY for vulturing. There have been credible stories about people getting kicked out for vulturing at a few of the major corporation properties in Las Vegas, most frequently in high-limit rooms. I will say that if people are doing the sort of things in the examples of questionable acts that you offer, then they didn't get kicked out for vulturing, they got kicked out for vulturing AND being buttholes.

In my opinion, doing things with an eye towards running people off of machines is straight up dirty pool; that's to say nothing for actual creators. If there is action taken against vultures, just on general principle, then I would say people like that are the reason why such actions are taken. In my opinion, it's just bad policy to make the recreational players at all uncomfortable, hover over them, etc... If the Regal pops for them, then it pops for them. Good for them. I hope it's a top-tier result and that they don't end up giving it all back.

I've known a couple of people (though rare) that actively get angry when recreational players hit decent wins. Why? If we're advantage players for a living, or for part of our living, then neither the recreational players nor casinos owe anything to us. I suppose that casinos should, in theory, owe it to us to deal with us fairly as long as we are playing by the rules, but that's about it.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Sep 23, 2023
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
OKAY
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November 12th, 2023 at 8:21:38 PM permalink
Some player card systems at a few midsize tribals a message will popup indicating theirs an active gameplay still in progress if removed the second a bonus starts and could only reinsert after bonus completion. some games I was able to remove before bonus initiates. Maybe it's lag between the OS and card system? It is Windows after all. Game freezes, button failure and ticket redemption problems get worse without frequent reboots.

The message wouldn't popup during base game wins, as far as what I've experienced.
darkoz
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November 12th, 2023 at 9:23:35 PM permalink
I can understand getting kicked out for vulturing in high limits rooms if the vulture isn't also high limits card holders.

Usually those rooms are reserved for higher tier card patrons and having a bunch of entry level card patrons sitting watching top tier players for them to get off machines isn't something a casino would want.

If the vulture is higher tier I don't think he would get kicked out for hanging in the high limits room especially if he has the high level of points earned for entry.

Most vultures however won't be top tier. They are literally taking a few spins and hour compared to the average player.
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DRich
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November 13th, 2023 at 4:24:21 AM permalink
Quote: OKAY

Some player card systems at a few midsize tribals a message will popup indicating theirs an active gameplay still in progress if removed the second a bonus starts and could only reinsert after bonus completion. some games I was able to remove before bonus initiates. Maybe it's lag between the OS and card system? It is Windows after all. Game freezes, button failure and ticket redemption problems get worse without frequent reboots.

The message wouldn't popup during base game wins, as far as what I've experienced.
link to original post



On the base game the results were probably already stored to your card before the removal. The G2S message for the "Game Over" is often sent with the results before the game outcome is displayed to the player.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
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November 13th, 2023 at 8:17:59 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: OKAY

Some player card systems at a few midsize tribals a message will popup indicating theirs an active gameplay still in progress if removed the second a bonus starts and could only reinsert after bonus completion. some games I was able to remove before bonus initiates. Maybe it's lag between the OS and card system? It is Windows after all. Game freezes, button failure and ticket redemption problems get worse without frequent reboots.

The message wouldn't popup during base game wins, as far as what I've experienced.
link to original post



On the base game the results were probably already stored to your card before the removal. The G2S message for the "Game Over" is often sent with the results before the game outcome is displayed to the player.
link to original post

At least one online casino will close the game and replace it with a pop-up screen with a W-2G acknowledgment form as soon as you hit the play button on slots and the result is predetermined to be a jackpot. You have to reopen the game to see what the winning combination was. Interestingly, it will always do this in base games. However, the behavior is different in bonus games. If you earn a bonus round, then this form will pop up the instant the last spin of the bonus round is initiated. I find it annoying that I never get to see the outcome of the last spin. When I reopen the game, the base game result is displayed, not the last result of the bonus round. Imagine how annoying it would be if I never got to see any of the spins in the bonus round because then game shut down immediately when I was predetermined to be a bonus round jackpot winner.

I was playing a slot game for a leaderboard recently. The leaderboard scoring is partially based on the number of winning spins. The leaderboard will increment within a second of the instant that I hit the play button. In this case, I know the result will be a winner, but I don't know how much I won. I then wait for three more seconds for the first reel to stop spinning and even longer for the other four reels to stop.

The point is that almost every slot will log the result of you game as soon as possible. That is usually milliseconds after the game is initiated unless there is user interaction required that affects the possible outcome of the game.
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Wizard
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November 13th, 2023 at 7:44:24 PM permalink
This is a good question.

First, let me make it clear that I don't program player card readers, so can't answer with much authority. I can say that flaws with pulling cards after being dealt a strong hand in video poker have been fixed and players who do it likely set off red flags.

However, here the question is pulling the card before a bet is made. Perhaps when a bonus feature is likely or guaranteed to hit in variable-state games. If your motive is to show losses at a particular casino, whether for comps or win-loss statement, this would seem like a good idea. As far as I know, the system would read it as one player leaving and a non-carded player jumping in. I've heard it done where a player uses two cards -- one to show a loss and another to pick up the points when the game is ready to hit a bonus.

In conclusion, I think card pulling is a good idea if (1) you want to show losses and (2) the bonus is ready to hit.

Personally, I play without a card when vulturing, except on Hexbreaker 3 and the middle stack is high, meaning I could be playing for 2+ hours and earning lots of points.
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November 17th, 2023 at 11:55:55 PM permalink
Imagine getting on a machine at 49xx and knowing you can pull at 49xx showing a loss back in 2017-2018 and winning all kinds of drawings and cars and suff.
DRich
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November 18th, 2023 at 5:25:50 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

This is a good question.

First, let me make it clear that I don't program player card readers, so can't answer with much authority. I can say that flaws with pulling cards after being dealt a strong hand in video poker have been fixed and players who do it likely set off red flags.

However, here the question is pulling the card before a bet is made. Perhaps when a bonus feature is likely or guaranteed to hit in variable-state games. If your motive is to show losses at a particular casino, whether for comps or win-loss statement, this would seem like a good idea. As far as I know, the system would read it as one player leaving and a non-carded player jumping in. I've heard it done where a player uses two cards -- one to show a loss and another to pick up the points when the game is ready to hit a bonus.

In conclusion, I think card pulling is a good idea if (1) you want to show losses and (2) the bonus is ready to hit.

Personally, I play without a card when vulturing, except on Hexbreaker 3 and the middle stack is high, meaning I could be playing for 2+ hours and earning lots of points.
link to original post



As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
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November 18th, 2023 at 10:44:12 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

I was swapping seats with another player at Casino Royale four years ago. We were playing UX. We were only swapping cards about once every five minutes. One of us had a card in the game for every hand and each player was playing his own card. We got a visit from a suit around the time we maxed out the rebate on one card. We were told we were flagged for frequent card pulling.

Nothing bad came of it, but I was surprised they had a program to flag this.
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DRich
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November 18th, 2023 at 12:44:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

I was swapping seats with another player at Casino Royale four years ago. We were playing UX. We were only swapping cards about once every five minutes. One of us had a card in the game for every hand and each player was playing his own card. We got a visit from a suit around the time we maxed out the rebate on one card. We were told we were flagged for frequent card pulling.

Nothing bad came of it, but I was surprised they had a program to flag this.
link to original post



They may have an automated system but I still doubt it. My guess is that it is more likely security witnessed it and reported it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
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November 18th, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

I was swapping seats with another player at Casino Royale four years ago. We were playing UX. We were only swapping cards about once every five minutes. One of us had a card in the game for every hand and each player was playing his own card. We got a visit from a suit around the time we maxed out the rebate on one card. We were told we were flagged for frequent card pulling.

Nothing bad came of it, but I was surprised they had a program to flag this.
link to original post



They may have an automated system but I still doubt it. My guess is that it is more likely security witnessed it and reported it.
link to original post



Pulling your own players card (Pulling in general) is not against any rules and certainly not any gambling statutes.

I'm surprised they mentioned it to you as an issue.

It's difficult to enforce as well. Plenty of people pull their cards and reinsert to Guage point balances (especially in older system casinos where points don't update as you play). Usually people have to earn points for some gift or promotion and people need to verify their points.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
heatmap
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November 18th, 2023 at 3:05:14 PM permalink
I provide zero value for my local casino and when wind creek bought out the sands they began to give out freeplay to me about every week or so

It was like 5 dollars or so

I somehow managed to usually get very lucky for about a month i would go in and just check my amount and if i had nothing i would leave but when i had that 5 dollars about 3 out of 4 times i would just slam a mac bet on any random slot and it hit big and sometimes it would just hit enough to where i could go to game with leas of a house edge such as stadium blackjack or vp

The next month i got nothing and continued to get nothing
darkoz
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November 18th, 2023 at 3:24:12 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I provide zero value for my local casino and when wind creek bought out the sands they began to give out freeplay to me about every week or so

It was like 5 dollars or so

I somehow managed to usually get very lucky for about a month i would go in and just check my amount and if i had nothing i would leave but when i had that 5 dollars about 3 out of 4 times i would just slam a mac bet on any random slot and it hit big and sometimes it would just hit enough to where i could go to game with leas of a house edge such as stadium blackjack or vp

The next month i got nothing and continued to get nothing
link to original post



Wind Creek is using a different system than normal casinos for freeplay.

What you described sounds accurate.

Certain AP's on here will quake in their boots if they understood what Wind Creek is doing.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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November 18th, 2023 at 6:14:00 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Wizard

This is a good question.

First, let me make it clear that I don't program player card readers, so can't answer with much authority. I can say that flaws with pulling cards after being dealt a strong hand in video poker have been fixed and players who do it likely set off red flags.

However, here the question is pulling the card before a bet is made. Perhaps when a bonus feature is likely or guaranteed to hit in variable-state games. If your motive is to show losses at a particular casino, whether for comps or win-loss statement, this would seem like a good idea. As far as I know, the system would read it as one player leaving and a non-carded player jumping in. I've heard it done where a player uses two cards -- one to show a loss and another to pick up the points when the game is ready to hit a bonus.

In conclusion, I think card pulling is a good idea if (1) you want to show losses and (2) the bonus is ready to hit.

Personally, I play without a card when vulturing, except on Hexbreaker 3 and the middle stack is high, meaning I could be playing for 2+ hours and earning lots of points.
link to original post



As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Casino Royal flags excessive card pulls, actually it's not even excessive, it's a very short leash. It notifies slot attendants, and they come out looking for you and give you the 3rd degree, It's not even the same machines in and out there's a formula they use, and even moving machines won't help unless you know the system well.

UX and other such games have been noticed by many casino systems and they could cause potential 86ing, no mail, etc. You won't know until it's too late... I.E. play at your own risk. That's part of what good advantage players do, they figure out how much, when, where, and why.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Nov 18, 2023
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
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November 18th, 2023 at 6:43:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: Wizard

This is a good question.

First, let me make it clear that I don't program player card readers, so can't answer with much authority. I can say that flaws with pulling cards after being dealt a strong hand in video poker have been fixed and players who do it likely set off red flags.

However, here the question is pulling the card before a bet is made. Perhaps when a bonus feature is likely or guaranteed to hit in variable-state games. If your motive is to show losses at a particular casino, whether for comps or win-loss statement, this would seem like a good idea. As far as I know, the system would read it as one player leaving and a non-carded player jumping in. I've heard it done where a player uses two cards -- one to show a loss and another to pick up the points when the game is ready to hit a bonus.

In conclusion, I think card pulling is a good idea if (1) you want to show losses and (2) the bonus is ready to hit.

Personally, I play without a card when vulturing, except on Hexbreaker 3 and the middle stack is high, meaning I could be playing for 2+ hours and earning lots of points.
link to original post



As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Casino Royal flags excessive card pulls actually it's not even excessive, it's a very short leash. It notifies a slot attendants, and they come out looking for you and give you the 3rd degree, Its not even the same machines in and out there's a formula they use, and even moving machines won't help unless you know the system well.

UX and other such games have been noticed by many casino systems and they could cause potential 86ing, no mail, etc. You won't know until it's too late... I.E. play at your own risk. That's part of what good advantage players do, they figure out how much, when, where, and why.
link to original post



Is that specifically to eliminate vultures? So if they just play off one or a few spins and then finish?

Or are they actually aware of loss manipulation?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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November 18th, 2023 at 11:29:46 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: Wizard

This is a good question.

First, let me make it clear that I don't program player card readers, so can't answer with much authority. I can say that flaws with pulling cards after being dealt a strong hand in video poker have been fixed and players who do it likely set off red flags.

However, here the question is pulling the card before a bet is made. Perhaps when a bonus feature is likely or guaranteed to hit in variable-state games. If your motive is to show losses at a particular casino, whether for comps or win-loss statement, this would seem like a good idea. As far as I know, the system would read it as one player leaving and a non-carded player jumping in. I've heard it done where a player uses two cards -- one to show a loss and another to pick up the points when the game is ready to hit a bonus.

In conclusion, I think card pulling is a good idea if (1) you want to show losses and (2) the bonus is ready to hit.

Personally, I play without a card when vulturing, except on Hexbreaker 3 and the middle stack is high, meaning I could be playing for 2+ hours and earning lots of points.
link to original post



As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Casino Royal flags excessive card pulls actually it's not even excessive, it's a very short leash. It notifies a slot attendants, and they come out looking for you and give you the 3rd degree, Its not even the same machines in and out there's a formula they use, and even moving machines won't help unless you know the system well.

UX and other such games have been noticed by many casino systems and they could cause potential 86ing, no mail, etc. You won't know until it's too late... I.E. play at your own risk. That's part of what good advantage players do, they figure out how much, when, where, and why.
link to original post



Is that specifically to eliminate vultures? So if they just play off one or a few spins and then finish?

Or are they actually aware of loss manipulation?
link to original post

I'm not really understanding what your question was, my post had nothing to do with vultures or eliminating them. Casino Royale has been doing this for over 10 years. I don't know exactly when they started their permanent 20% lost rebate, but it was sometime shortly after that their system started flagging and alerting staff members. Without a doubt, their loss rebate was the sole reason for implementing that measure.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
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November 18th, 2023 at 11:55:48 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: Wizard

This is a good question.

First, let me make it clear that I don't program player card readers, so can't answer with much authority. I can say that flaws with pulling cards after being dealt a strong hand in video poker have been fixed and players who do it likely set off red flags.

However, here the question is pulling the card before a bet is made. Perhaps when a bonus feature is likely or guaranteed to hit in variable-state games. If your motive is to show losses at a particular casino, whether for comps or win-loss statement, this would seem like a good idea. As far as I know, the system would read it as one player leaving and a non-carded player jumping in. I've heard it done where a player uses two cards -- one to show a loss and another to pick up the points when the game is ready to hit a bonus.

In conclusion, I think card pulling is a good idea if (1) you want to show losses and (2) the bonus is ready to hit.

Personally, I play without a card when vulturing, except on Hexbreaker 3 and the middle stack is high, meaning I could be playing for 2+ hours and earning lots of points.
link to original post



As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Casino Royal flags excessive card pulls actually it's not even excessive, it's a very short leash. It notifies a slot attendants, and they come out looking for you and give you the 3rd degree, Its not even the same machines in and out there's a formula they use, and even moving machines won't help unless you know the system well.

UX and other such games have been noticed by many casino systems and they could cause potential 86ing, no mail, etc. You won't know until it's too late... I.E. play at your own risk. That's part of what good advantage players do, they figure out how much, when, where, and why.
link to original post



Is that specifically to eliminate vultures? So if they just play off one or a few spins and then finish?

Or are they actually aware of loss manipulation?
link to original post

I'm not really understanding what your question was, my post had nothing to do with vultures or eliminating them. Casino Royale has been doing this for over 10 years. I don't know exactly when they started their permanent 20% lost rebate, but it was sometime shortly after that their system started flagging and alerting staff members. Without a doubt, their loss rebate was the sole reason for implementing that measure.
link to original post



Ahh, I see.

I was unaware of the history of this. With a 20% loss rebate I can understand how they detected and decided to countermeasure
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
100xOdds
100xOdds
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November 19th, 2023 at 12:08:20 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Wait.. you can still do card pulling in Ult X in the middle of a hand?
ie: $5 tdb, a 12x, and you're dealt AAA2x
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
billryan
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November 19th, 2023 at 1:53:30 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: heatmap

I provide zero value for my local casino and when wind creek bought out the sands they began to give out freeplay to me about every week or so

It was like 5 dollars or so

I somehow managed to usually get very lucky for about a month i would go in and just check my amount and if i had nothing i would leave but when i had that 5 dollars about 3 out of 4 times i would just slam a mac bet on any random slot and it hit big and sometimes it would just hit enough to where i could go to game with leas of a house edge such as stadium blackjack or vp

The next month i got nothing and continued to get nothing
link to original post



Wind Creek is using a different system than normal casinos for freeplay.

What you described sounds accurate.

Certain AP's on here will quake in their boots if they understood what Wind Creek is doing.
link to original post



Have they disrupted the patterns of the roulette wheel? I know an APwho would be very upset .
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
rsactuary
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November 19th, 2023 at 3:05:23 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: DRich

As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Wait.. you can still do card pulling in Ult X in the middle of a hand?
ie: $5 tdb, a 12x, and you're dealt AAA2x
link to original post



I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying that if you have a full screen of 12x multipliers for your next hand, you might want to consider pulling your card before playing as that hand has a higher likelihood of triggering a W2-G.
DRich
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November 19th, 2023 at 4:57:57 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: DRich

As one who has programmed many player tracking systems I think I would consider myself a near expert on the subject. There are still a few old systems out there where card pulling still works but most casinos have upgraded. I do not know of any system that flags excessive card pulls. Card pulling is still a good method for loss rebates on certain games such as Ultimate X.
link to original post

Wait.. you can still do card pulling in Ult X in the middle of a hand?
ie: $5 tdb, a 12x, and you're dealt AAA2x
link to original post



No, Ultimate X gives you the advantage on the next hand. If you have a lot of multipliers pull your card before you start the hand.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
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November 19th, 2023 at 7:03:28 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: heatmap

I provide zero value for my local casino and when wind creek bought out the sands they began to give out freeplay to me about every week or so

It was like 5 dollars or so

I somehow managed to usually get very lucky for about a month i would go in and just check my amount and if i had nothing i would leave but when i had that 5 dollars about 3 out of 4 times i would just slam a mac bet on any random slot and it hit big and sometimes it would just hit enough to where i could go to game with leas of a house edge such as stadium blackjack or vp

The next month i got nothing and continued to get nothing
link to original post



Wind Creek is using a different system than normal casinos for freeplay.

What you described sounds accurate.

Certain AP's on here will quake in their boots if they understood what Wind Creek is doing.
link to original post



Have they disrupted the patterns of the roulette wheel? I know an APwho would be very upset .
link to original post



I said the system has to do with freeplay. Nothing to do with roulette
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Sandybestdog
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ChumpChange
November 25th, 2023 at 8:03:56 AM permalink
I had a voucher I was betting sports off of. Once while the balance was on a kiosk I swiped my players card. Of course swiping your card for sports doesn’t do much, just a mediocre amount of tier points and it will presumably track your bets in case you lose a ticket. Once I swiped I could tell I was “logged in” and it was tracking. I went back a few days later and used the same voucher without swiping my card and I could tell it still logs me in. The voucher and all subsequent ones are all linked to my account regardless if I use my card.

I believe the newer slots do the same thing. You can pull your card out and play but it still knows that voucher is connected to your account. I don’t know if it goes so far as to still track your win/loss if your card is not in but it can know it’s you.
darkoz
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November 25th, 2023 at 8:50:15 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I had a voucher I was betting sports off of. Once while the balance was on a kiosk I swiped my players card. Of course swiping your card for sports doesn’t do much, just a mediocre amount of tier points and it will presumably track your bets in case you lose a ticket. Once I swiped I could tell I was “logged in” and it was tracking. I went back a few days later and used the same voucher without swiping my card and I could tell it still logs me in. The voucher and all subsequent ones are all linked to my account regardless if I use my card.

I believe the newer slots do the same thing. You can pull your card out and play but it still knows that voucher is connected to your account. I don’t know if it goes so far as to still track your win/loss if your card is not in but it can know it’s you.
link to original post



Anyone doing the card pulling trick properly would also cash out the voucher and use a different one or cash.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
ChumpChange
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November 25th, 2023 at 9:21:53 AM permalink
I saw Mr. Handpay playing on YouTube last night and he had to tie up a couple of machines because he was waiting for a handpay on one so he'd play another. I'm thinking I'll play slots in Canada and never get a handpay. It's just bringing the casino check or cash back across the border in excess of $10K that may be a problem. I don't even think American banks or casinos will cash a Canadian casino check made out with Canadian dollars. I'll just have to bring the check with me for my next trip into Canada for front money.
Sandybestdog
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November 25th, 2023 at 9:37:59 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Sandybestdog

I had a voucher I was betting sports off of. Once while the balance was on a kiosk I swiped my players card. Of course swiping your card for sports doesn’t do much, just a mediocre amount of tier points and it will presumably track your bets in case you lose a ticket. Once I swiped I could tell I was “logged in” and it was tracking. I went back a few days later and used the same voucher without swiping my card and I could tell it still logs me in. The voucher and all subsequent ones are all linked to my account regardless if I use my card.

I believe the newer slots do the same thing. You can pull your card out and play but it still knows that voucher is connected to your account. I don’t know if it goes so far as to still track your win/loss if your card is not in but it can know it’s you.
link to original post



Anyone doing the card pulling trick properly would also cash out the voucher and use a different one or cash.
link to original post

Uh well duh. I didn’t feel the need to give the entire step by step process. But as the east coast’s most feared ap I assumed you already knew that.
vegas
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November 25th, 2023 at 2:05:48 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I saw Mr. Handpay playing on YouTube last night and he had to tie up a couple of machines because he was waiting for a handpay on one so he'd play another. I'm thinking I'll play slots in Canada and never get a handpay. It's just bringing the casino check or cash back across the border in excess of $10K that may be a problem. I don't even think American banks or casinos will cash a Canadian casino check made out with Canadian dollars. I'll just have to bring the check with me for my next trip into Canada for front money.
link to original post

d


You can take more than 10,000 across the border, you just have to declare it to customs.
50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
BTLWI
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Dieter
November 25th, 2023 at 3:13:27 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I had a voucher I was betting sports off of. Once while the balance was on a kiosk I swiped my players card. Of course swiping your card for sports doesn’t do much, just a mediocre amount of tier points and it will presumably track your bets in case you lose a ticket. Once I swiped I could tell I was “logged in” and it was tracking. I went back a few days later and used the same voucher without swiping my card and I could tell it still logs me in. The voucher and all subsequent ones are all linked to my account regardless if I use my card.

I believe the newer slots do the same thing. You can pull your card out and play but it still knows that voucher is connected to your account. I don’t know if it goes so far as to still track your win/loss if your card is not in but it can know it’s you.
link to original post



Imagine we're on a play as a team. Player A, B, C, D. Player A inserts $3000 ticket, plays with card. Turn is over. Player B inserts card and plays. Player C inserts card and plays. Player D inserts card and plays.

Which player card is the ticket linked to?
BTLWI
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November 25th, 2023 at 3:17:05 PM permalink
Imagine we're on a 2 person play. We each stick $100 in. You start and it hits. Final ticket cashout is $400. I buy the ticket off you (hand you $200). I go play the ticket without my card, the ticket is still linked to person 1? No way.
darkoz
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Dieter
November 25th, 2023 at 3:24:32 PM permalink
At the now closed Taj mahal in AC if you downloaded your freeplay to the slot, pulled your card out and inserted another person's card BOTH cards then immediately pin locked.

You could go to rewards desk where they would unlock and warn you not to do it again.

Most AC casinos(maybe not all I don't test for this obviously) the tito even just cash is linked to the first card you insert however there isn't any penalty for inserting another person's card. People sometimes get up and sit at another machine not realizing someone else's card is still in.

However if you have over $3000 tito you will have to go to the cashier (or.play until you drop below) and at cashier they will refuse to cash if the linked player doesn't show up with ID.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
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