lavifighter
lavifighter
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December 10th, 2016 at 5:48:05 AM permalink
I don't plan to every play this machine and I think its very stupid to do so(unless you are a billionaire and even than, play other games...)... But I am wondering about few issues:
1. Does anyone know if such machines(or any other machine at this demon) requires hand pay and taxes for every single win? Sound very annoying...
2. The players need to insert the bills "1 by one"? How does it work? It will take lot of time to insert 50 "100 dollar' bills...
3. What is the house edge for such machines? Anything over 0.5% is too high, 1% is a theft for such fast, high variance and high limit game...
Mission146
Mission146
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December 10th, 2016 at 6:17:25 AM permalink
1.) Usually how that would work is a slot attendant would stand next to (or near) the person playing and just make a log of wins issuing the proper forms at the end of the session and unlocking the machine as needed. Technically, yes, there is a W-2G for every win.

2.) I believe you could purchase tickets at the cage, the type of tickets that would usually only be released by the machine. Don't hold me to that, though, I've certainly never done it to know firsthand.

3.) I actually disagree with you on this point, granted, it would be nice for the machine to have a house edge that is less than 0.5%, but what about table games? There are some casinos out there at which the Max bet on a table game can be $5,000 (or more) and most Table Games have a House Edge greater than 1%.

I would also encourage you not to forget that the variance of a slot machine like that works both ways. Having such a slot machine, in my view, is largely an, 'Ooohhsss and Aaahhhhsss,' thing for the casino. They don't necessarily get a ton of play, so it is quite conceivable that the casino could end up having a net losing machine on their hands if they get tagged for a jackpot or two. What makes your average slot machine so profitable is not just the high house edge, but the fact that most machines are going to get so much play that the actual results eventually come close to approaching the theoretical return of the machine. Perhaps some of these high dollar machines get to that point, but I imagine not all of them do.

Of course, that could work to the benefit of the casino, as well. If the machine, 'Runs bad,' during its lifetime of play, the casino may even come out ahead over and above the long-term Expected Return of the game.

Commonly, games in which you can win many times over your bet tend to have a greater House Edge against the player. It is for that reason that side bets on Table Games tend to have a greater House Edge than the base game, Roulette has a greater House Edge than the Pass Line bet at Craps, that sort of thing. I really don't see why the casino should be inclined to offer a House Edge of under one percent on such a slot machine, were I the casino, I'd probably set it to return 96-97%, but that's just me.
Vultures can't be choosers.
mamat
mamat
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December 12th, 2016 at 7:33:51 PM permalink
Some casinos allow wins under $50K to be directly fed into machines. Aria started this in their HL area in 2010 (only if you asked to be included).

Some casinos will make tickets for you (e.g. $50K/ticket).
MrV
MrV
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December 12th, 2016 at 8:41:29 PM permalink
High limit slots must have been hell in the days before TITO and currency receptors.

Helluva lot of silver dollars for a high denomination spin.

Or maybe they didn't have high limit slots back in the day?
"What, me worry?"
RogerKint
RogerKint
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onenickelmiracle
December 12th, 2016 at 9:10:31 PM permalink
If I'm not mistaken they had casino coins that represented higher dollar amounts.
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RS
RS
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December 12th, 2016 at 10:59:22 PM permalink
1) Yes, anything at $1200 or more requires a W2G. Some casinos have a "fast play" program, or something of the sorts. I never used it, but, it was explained to me that basically whenever you hit a jackpot, the machine locks up like normal, you enter your PIN number and perhaps something else, then the machine gets unlocked and your credits remain on the machine. At the end of your session, ask a slot attendant and they'll print up your finalized W2G (the sum of all jackpots onto 1 tax form).

Casinos without that system, have slot attendants nearby to key the machine and print up the tax forms very quickly. I was once at Caesars Palace HL room in LV when a lady next to me was going ham on the $25 10-play ($1,250/spin) VP. At least 5 slot attendants were in constant motion between HLR and wherever they go to print up a W2G.

2) If they want to they can. Or they can bring cash to the cage and ask for it to be converted into tickets. Or, the most likely scenario, the player already has a line of credit or front money account at the casino -- he asks for a $50k marker or however much he wants, and they print up 5 $10k tickets (or 1 $50k ticket or 10 $5k tickets or however the player wants it).


3) I don't know the house edge. But remember, the casino can also lose quite a bit on these machines. The top payout on a RWB is 400 credits I believe -- that's $2M. So at the same time, the casino also needs enough of an edge on these games to make the volatility worth it for them. A 0.5% HE on a $5k wager is $25 in EV for the casino -- IMO, way too little an amount for such a high variance game, for the casino. I would guess between 2-4% HE on the game.

Remember, the HE is low on other games like VP or BJ -- but that's if you use the proper strategy. Most players probably give up 3% when playing a 0.5% HE game, because they play so poorly. So realistically, the BJ and VP games they offer do not have a 0.5% HE, because most aren't playing properly -- they essentially have a 2-3% HE due to how poorly people play.
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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December 13th, 2016 at 3:53:57 AM permalink
Fwiw, I saw $5, $10, and $25 tokens back in the coin drop days. I would guess that if they were doing those, they also had $100 tokens and maybe higher denoms as well. Saw them at Caesar's and MGM Grand.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
MrV
MrV
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December 13th, 2016 at 9:30:06 AM permalink
I wonder whether people tried to cheat using slugs made to look and feel like those high denomination chips?

If so, the scam probably wouldn't have worked for long.
"What, me worry?"
Romes
Romes
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RogerKint
December 13th, 2016 at 9:33:57 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I wonder whether people tried to cheat using slugs made to look and feel like those high denomination chips?

If so, the scam probably wouldn't have worked for long.

...Like the first time they simply got a "push" and had to fill out a W2...

Maybe it's because I'm not a billionaire, but what's the draw of playing a high enough denom slot/vp where you're just getting a W2 nearly every single hand? It's like... $1250 for the pull on VP... Got a pair of jacks... Push... Oh wait, now I have to fill out a W2 and lose 30% of my own money when I didn't win anything.

Couldn't this all 'legally' be fixed by the VP machine not TAKING your winning bet but simply pushing it? On slots/VP when you hit deal your money is gone then anything that "comes back" in a "win." While in table games your bet/money stay put and no money is exchanged until a real win or loss occurs.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
ahiromu
ahiromu
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December 13th, 2016 at 9:46:35 AM permalink
When I need a thrill, I spend $100 on a slot spin. People that bet more than me per hand need to get a thrill too. I could totally see someone who can lose 50k in a weekend spinning this at the end of his trip to try and get even. There are more than a few of these guys at the big casinos each weekend.

Not saying it's economical or enough people play it, definitely some shock value.

Also #3: I completely disagree with these guys, no way the casino sets it below 5%. I'd be surprised if they don't turn it down to 85%, lots of variance to cope with on their end.
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