Class II versus Class III Gaming
Quote: rdw4potusI think the biggest difference comes in the user-determined features. Like a bonus where you select 1 of 3 symbols to determine your prize. On a class III machine, you really can get any one of the three prizes. On a class II machine, you WILL get the pre-determined prize.
I've often wondered about that...
My freeplay comes in the form of a "match two amounts" and is always between $175-$1000...in the many years I've been getting it, I've NEVER got more than $175...(and I get it twice a month)
Quote: rdw4potusI think the biggest difference comes in the user-determined features. Like a bonus where you select 1 of 3 symbols to determine your prize. On a class III machine, you really can get any one of the three prizes. On a class II machine, you WILL get the pre-determined prize.
That would be both interesting and, alas, thoroughly irrelevant. Sorry. See, in both cases the machines ultimately will pay back a certain percentage on average, regardless of the specifics peculiar to each class. Also, you can't tell the difference.
Where it makes a difference is in VP. In a mahcine where you really play, the payback is a function of the pay table and the player's skill (memorizing a strategy table is a skill). ON one of the rpedetermined machines, how you play doesn't matter.
Quote: hook3670So on regular slot machines it is irrelevant of they are Class II or III, but it does matter in VP?
Yes, on class II machines VP strategy is worthless. You can hold on to garbage, and either a "genie" will convert your hand to what you were supposed to win or a "match card" will award what you were supposed to win. When playing these machines in Alabama (a class II jurisdiction) for tiny amounts of money, I would intentionally hold garbage to make the "genie" appear...lol
Also the only slot jackpot I've won is on a class II machine (Texas Tea for $200). I hit some random bingo pattern where I needed ~22 hits in like 48 calls or something. The result appeared as 5 Texas Tea symbols like it would on a class III machine. If one had the math skills/inclination, he or she would be able to calculate the payback of the machine as it listed all the bingo patterns it would pay out.
Quote: NareedThat would be both interesting and, alas, thoroughly irrelevant. Sorry. See, in both cases the machines ultimately will pay back a certain percentage on average, regardless of the specifics peculiar to each class. Also, you can't tell the difference.
Many of the bingo-based games actually have a little digital bingo board displayed. You really can watch it play a little 1-second-long bingo game to determine if any winning combinations are present. It's pretty snarky, really:-)
Quote: rdw4potusMany of the bingo-based games actually have a little digital bingo board displayed. You really can watch it play a little 1-second-long bingo game to determine if any winning combinations are present. It's pretty snarky, really:-)
Yeah, and at the casino I was at, you also were allowed to change your bingo card between spins. I always picked one with 69 in the corner...lol
Quote: hook3670I understand that a Class II machine differs from a Class III machine in that the Class II acts like a bingo game and when you push the button the outcome is determined and the the reels and outcome is just for show. A Class III machine has a RNG instead. However, isn't the outcome of the Class III also determined the minute you push the button and whatever comes up is the outcome from whatever numbers came from the RNG when it was pushed? I just don't see much of a difference unless I am totally missing something(which is entirely possible!) Also, are all electronic table games classified as Class III machines?
Not necessarily. Here's the relevant law:
http://www.nigc.gov/Laws_Regulations/Indian_Gaming_Regulatory_Act.aspx
There have been many cases decided on what games are/are not class II. The NIGC has a whole list of them. Read those for a clearer picture.
Quote: hook3670I understand that a Class II machine differs from a Class III machine in that the Class II acts like a bingo game and when you push the button the outcome is determined and the the reels and outcome is just for show. A Class III machine has a RNG instead. However, isn't the outcome of the Class III also determined the minute you push the button and whatever comes up is the outcome from whatever numbers came from the RNG when it was pushed? I just don't see much of a difference unless I am totally missing something(which is entirely possible!) Also, are all electronic table games classified as Class III machines?
The answer is simple -- if you play a class II video poker device, and you threw away a dealt quad (or RF), you will STILL end up winning on that specific hand, and based on posts on this website, your winnings is comparable or the same via a bonus card or a genie as the original dealt hand. That is to say if your bingo card (or pull tab) was destined to win, you will WIN no matter what you do on the flop.
Try that on a Class III machine. If you threw away a dealt quad, you just urinated away a huge winning hand!
Think of a Class II machine game like a pull tab. The outcome on the pull tab is immutable. Image everytime you hit the spin button on a Class II device, it is akin to buying a pull-tab with replacement as if the pool of pull-tab is a constant. (With physical pull-tabs, it is done without replacement.) The randomness aspect is picking a winning combination out of the fixed pool of pull tabs.
Quote: PlayHunterDoes exist Class I video slots or video poker games? Or Class I games are considered only social games like backgammon, poker etc?
(6) The term "class I gaming" means social games solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in by individuals as a part of, or in connection with, tribal ceremonies or celebrations.
So any gaming defined as Class I is not electronic.
Quote: onenickelmiracleWhat I find funny about Class II compared to class III is Class II is bound to fractions, but class III is not.
You mean in terms of odds? I suppose Class III games could have irrational numbers for its probabilities/returns. For example, making the probability of triggering a slot bonus game be the square root of 1/15,000. But in practice, I would think most Class III games can be expressed as fractions.
The return of "Not So Ugly Ducks" video poker with flawless strategy for example is 19,878,973,715,712/19,933,230,517,200 = 99.7278...%
Quote: tringlomaneYou mean in terms of odds? I suppose Class III games could have irrational numbers for its probabilities/returns. For example, making the probability of triggering a slot bonus game be the square root of 1/15,000. But in practice, I would think most Class III games can be expressed as fractions.
The return of "Not So Ugly Ducks" video poker with flawless strategy for example is 19,878,973,715,712/19,933,230,517,200 = 99.7278...%
Yup exactly what I meant. My friend used to make a lot of money on the stock market just due to the old school people only dealing in translated fractions to decimal points and he made money on their bad habits. Again, just find it funny Class II are bound by the 80 balls and as bad as they want to do the math, they cannot differ from the reality of the game which is based on 80 balls.
Quote: onenickelmiracleYup exactly what I meant. My friend used to make a lot of money on the stock market just due to the old school people only dealing in translated fractions to decimal points and he made money on their bad habits. Again, just find it funny Class II are bound by the 80 balls and as bad as they want to do the math, they cannot differ from the reality of the game which is based on 80 balls.
Bingo is typically 75 balls; keno is 80 balls, fwiw. And have you ever played a Class II slot? Mathematical manipulation can make them behave very, very similar to Class III machines because they are allowed to assign numerous prizes of varying sizes to random bingo combinations. Basically the electronic bingo game functions are very similar to a Class III RNG. They just choose bingo balls instead of slot symbols.
I obviously have a soft spot for Class II games because the only slot jackpot I have ever won was because of some random pattern of bingo balls (most of the card covered) that I got in less than 48ish calls. But the main video screen showed me 5 "Texas Tea" symbols lined up instead just like you'd expect if you hit the jackpot in Vegas. The animation was identical to a Class III machine.
Quote: tringlomaneBingo is typically 75 balls; keno is 80 balls, fwiw. And have you ever played a Class II slot? Mathematical manipulation can make them behave very, very similar to Class III machines because they are allowed to assign numerous prizes of varying sizes to random bingo combinations. Basically the electronic bingo game functions are very similar to a Class III RNG. They just choose bingo balls instead of slot symbols.
I obviously have a soft spot for Class II games because the only slot jackpot I have ever won was because of some random pattern of bingo balls (most of the card covered) that I got in less than 48ish calls. But the main video screen showed me 5 "Texas Tea" symbols lined up instead just like you'd expect if you hit the jackpot in Vegas. The animation was identical to a Class III machine.
Yes, under the influence of Heineken tonight. I meant 75. I have played class II slots in tiny proportions, but have played VLTs a lot where I have plenty of wins.
Quote: tringlomane(6) The term "class I gaming" means social games .. So any gaming defined as Class I is not electronic.
- So, by analogy, that means that any game which is not electronic must be categorized as Class I gaming ? - For example, blackjack tables with real people as dealers, are Class I gaming, while electronic blackjack tables must be categorized as Class III gaming ?
Therefore all online RNG blackjack games must be Class III while Live Dealer Online Games (BJ, baccarat, roullete) must be Class I ?
And the only Class I Slot games have to be the old mechanic ones with real mechanic reels rotating when you pull the lever down ?
Quote: PlayHunter- So, by analogy, that means ...
That is not at all an analogy. It is a completely false reversal of an if/then relationship.
Quote: PlayHunterQuote: tringlomane(6) The term "class I gaming" means social games .. So any gaming defined as Class I is not electronic.
- So, by analogy, that means that any game which is not electronic must be categorized as Class I gaming ? - For example, blackjack tables with real people as dealers, are Class I gaming, while electronic blackjack tables must be categorized as Class III gaming ?
Therefore all online RNG blackjack games must be Class III while Live Dealer Online Games (BJ, baccarat, roullete) must be Class I ?
And the only Class I Slot games have to be the old mechanic ones with real mechanic reels rotating when you pull the lever down ?
Blackjack and mechanical slots are both class III. Read the IGRA:
http://www.nigc.gov/Laws_Regulations/Indian_Gaming_Regulatory_Act.aspx
Quote: PlayHunterThen, this means that there is no such thing as Class I Slot game ?
Yes, slots are never defined as class I. No standard casino games are Class I, Class I is generally reserved for traditional tribal games.
Quote: Ardent1The answer is simple -- if you play a class II video poker device, and you threw away a dealt quad (or RF), you will STILL end up winning on that specific hand, and based on posts on this website, your winnings is comparable or the same via a bonus card or a genie as the original dealt hand. That is to say if your bingo card (or pull tab) was destined to win, you will WIN no matter what you do on the flop.
Yup. Tried this outside of Seattle once and tis sad but true. Originally thought I'd stumbled onto something good, 9/6JOB paytable plus something called "bonus pay" included along with the 5 coin bet. I played a few hands, won a piddling amount and then left to play in the live poker tournament. Later that night I researched what the effect of this bonus pay could be and discovered that it should be called "bogus pay" instead. Turns out Wash State outlawed VP years before ("too addictive" they said - lol) but some Indians have these machines that are made to completely look like VP but are in fact deceptively disguised class II bingo slots. I dont think anyone playing has a clue.
