odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 14th, 2023 at 12:24:55 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

As to poker, deception is an essential part of the game, like the net is in tennis.
link to original post



From a different thread, see link above

I agree with this completely, still some things are unethical. Generally the check-raise move gets a protest in friendly poker games; usually someone will say "that's sandbagging!"

For some reason I was not aware of String Bets, at least not how they are used to gain advantage, and are banned officially most places. I’m now considering doing a String Bet thing! in these home poker games, that is ... and am pretty sure I can get away with it, no one has said it’s banned in any game I play in. Well, OK, if somebody is clumsy with it, somebody might protest and say “no, you first said the lower bet, you can’t change it”, so the trick must be to pick up the tell quickly and then act quickly... perhaps saying nothing at all to bet.

Would this be acceptable ‘deception’ or is this crossing over into ‘unethical’ ??

https://www.mypokercoaching.com/string-bet-poker/

the check-raise is legal in casinos I think, but that's the one I have had to give up in friendly games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check-raise
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AZDuffman
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April 14th, 2023 at 2:04:39 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: Wizard

As to poker, deception is an essential part of the game, like the net is in tennis.
link to original post



From a different thread, see link above

I agree with this completely, still some things are unethical. Generally the check-raise move gets a protest in friendly poker games; usually someone will say "that's sandbagging!"

For some reason I was not aware of String Bets, at least not how they are used to gain advantage, and are banned officially most places. I’m now considering doing a String Bet thing! in these home poker games, that is ... and am pretty sure I can get away with it, no one has said it’s banned in any game I play in. Well, OK, if somebody is clumsy with it, somebody might protest and say “no, you first said the lower bet, you can’t change it”, so the trick must be to pick up the tell quickly and then act quickly... perhaps saying nothing at all to bet.

Would this be acceptable ‘deception’ or is this crossing over into ‘unethical’ ??

https://www.mypokercoaching.com/string-bet-poker/

the check-raise is legal in casinos I think, but that's the one I have had to give up in friendly games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check-raise
link to original post



I would not say "unethical" I would just say not to do it as you know it is bad practice. When I run home tournaments we do not allow it.. Usually the players just know not to do it but we have had a couple and just a couple who did not know. One was holding more cheques than needed to call and my dealer called him out on it. Innocent mistake as he did not know it was the wrong thing to do. In home games often someone ends up as "sheriff" and politely but firmly tells the offender not to do it.

When I teach how to play at parties I say, "that is only done in movie, not at a casino" and that is that.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 14th, 2023 at 2:30:06 PM permalink
AZ didn’t specify, but he’s talking about string bets. They are never allowed in casinos.

Check-raise on the other hand will riffle some feathers, but is a perfectly legal thing to do.


Quote: AZDuffman

When I teach how to play at parties I say, "that is only done in movie, not at a casino" and that is that.
link to original post

Ditto. As a poker dealer, I often point out to newbies that in movies and TV shows that have a poker scene, there’s guaranteed to be someone who says “I call your bet, and…” There’s no ‘and.’ That’s a string bet. Once you call, you’re done.

FYI: The movie Rounders is very realistic, but includes one string bet in a pivotal scene. The villain says, “I see your bet and, how much is in there? I bet the pot”. Sure, Mike could have made a stink about it, but what’s the point? There was more action to come on the next street, where surely the villain would have bet, so Mike just folded.

Then the villain shows his bluff. “Look at that. I bluffed the big ringer! I ain’t got shit.”
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
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April 14th, 2023 at 2:44:30 PM permalink
I’m an idiot. Instead of typing all that I typed, I should have copied from the poker intro that I wrote.

Quote: String Bet

Bets and raises must be made in one motion or one declaration. If you specify “Raise”, it is then acceptable to put out the chips for the call, then stop and think about the raise, and then put the raise out. But that raise must go out in one motion. You can’t put chips out and bring your hand back to put more out. If you want to raise so much that you can’t handle the number of chips, just announce the amount and then take as many steps as necessary.

A statement such as “I call your bet and raise you $x” is illegal. Yes, this is typical of home games, and is seen in movies and non-poker TV shows all the time, but once you say “call”, you’re done. Ditto for “I see your bet, and...” Sorry. There’s no ‘and...’

You can find a pdf of my intro here:
http://www.davemillergaming.com/poker.html


For the record, I will sometimes fake a string bet. It very effectively tells people that I have a strong hand without me having to risk extra chips on a bluff.

Deceptive? Sure. But deception is a big part of poker. So is analyzing the story the opponent is telling.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
AZDuffman
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April 14th, 2023 at 3:14:23 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

AZ didn’t specify, but he’s talking about string bets. They are never allowed in casinos.



Sorry if I confused. Didn't realize was more than one topic I was replying to.

Quote:

Bets and raises must be made in one motion or one declaration. If you specify “Raise”, it is then acceptable to put out the chips for the call, then stop and think about the raise, and then put the raise out. But that raise must go out in one motion. You can’t put chips out and bring your hand back to put more out. If you want to raise so much that you can’t handle the number of chips, just announce the amount and then take as many steps as necessary.

A statement such as “I call your bet and raise you $x” is illegal. Yes, this is typical of home games, and is seen in movies and non-poker TV shows all the time, but once you say “call”, you’re done. Ditto for “I see your bet, and...” Sorry. There’s no



Couple or three things. One is some players do not know throwing one chip of a higher value out in silence is a call. I have given up getting my weekly game to obey this as it starts a war when someone tells the older folks to say "raise" if they are raising. Other is do not assume your shorthand means what you mean it to mean. Was in the early stages of a tournament once and the guy says "six" then throws two chips. Next player calls. Guys says "I raised to six thousand, not six hundred!" Floorman ruled against him.

Care must be taken at home games. On one hand they are less formal. OTOH some of mine have had bigger prize pools than some casino tournaments I have played in so it is no joke.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 15th, 2023 at 5:18:03 AM permalink
Deception is important enough that you can make a case that it is the most important factor, something that's proven when you get lousy cards all night ... very common!... but squeak out a win for the evening anyway, or at least avoid disaster

for the home games I participate in, all dealer's choice, if the called game doesn't have wild cards, it's usually a high/low split pot. This matter of deception becomes paramount in these games as half the pot may be yours in a stud game just by appearances and your betting... especially for low, it seems like

if there are, say, six or seven players, there is high likelihood you can't be sure which way at least one guy is going. He's probably worried about you too, so this is the time you need to pay attention to Tells

and you guys have given me some ideas LOL!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
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