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AxelWolf
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October 15th, 2019 at 11:56:47 AM permalink
To be fair, Mike Postle did say he would show Mike the Mouth his hat. 🤣
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 15th, 2019 at 5:17:50 PM permalink
There's a hand they showed the other day it's in the first few minutes of this stream.

To sum it up, Mike postle reacts unfavorably/pissed to a river card that should really have nothing to do with the hand(assuming you can't see your opponent's hand).
Mike P: AH, QC
Opponent: 7C, 10C
BOARD: KD 4C 8D 8S 7S.
His opponent basically has no chance to win unless his 10 or 7 hits. Mike P has nothing but A Q High. Assuming you can't see your opponent's cards, a seven in this situation on the river should never be of any concern, as a matter of fact, you should love that card in this situation. I guess in someones wild imagination the could assume the 7 just made your opponent a gut-shot straight . If that's why you're upset you probably wouldn't raise with a bluff because almost certainly you are getting called.
I can see why Mike P would be annoyed knowing the guy just hit his pair on the river, because now he's behind and has to Bluff his opponent off his hand, especially since the guy in the hand with him seems capable of calling off a pair considering the fact that he's called with basically nothing all the way down to the river. Mike P is probably pissed because he knows a bluff might not even work since this guy has a pair now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiNtM37rrk
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Rigondeaux
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October 15th, 2019 at 5:32:01 PM permalink
There was a similar hand where he said "uh oh," when his opponent turned a straight draw on what should have been the most meaningless card in the deck. Then he said, "you scared me", after the draw missed.
PokerGrinder
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October 15th, 2019 at 6:06:58 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

There was a similar hand where he said "uh oh," when his opponent turned a straight draw on what should have been the most meaningless card in the deck. Then he said, "you scared me", after the draw missed.


Before the cards were exposed you forgot to add!
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
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October 16th, 2019 at 5:58:39 AM permalink
im soo jelly of the people who called out the rigging in the youtube chats, got made fun of, and now are laughing at the people who are just taking this seriously now.

please believe me about shuffle master guys! ;-)
AceCrAAckers
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October 16th, 2019 at 7:08:26 AM permalink
The thing no one has mentioned is when he has his hat backwards, his play is normal(.i.e. he makes bad calls and loses)
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AxelWolf
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October 16th, 2019 at 8:41:38 AM permalink
Quote: AceCrAAckers

The thing no one has mentioned is when he has his hat backwards, his play is normal(.i.e. he makes bad calls and loses)

Actually that has been mentioned before a few times perhaps not on this thread but I thought it was. Anyone that wants hard proof would just laugh at that aspect.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 16th, 2019 at 8:54:20 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

im soo jelly of the people who called out the rigging in the youtube chats, got made fun of, and now are laughing at the people who are just taking this seriously now.

please believe me about shuffle master guys! ;-)

What the hell are you talking about? There is no connection between this and Shuffle master.

For me, it only took watching about 10 or less key hands and the way he played to realize he was cheating.
I'm sure there's a lot of people that actually thought he was cheating, but they weren't willing to come out and say it in public until they had much more proof. There's people that know damn well he's cheating and still won't commit to saying that.

If Shuffle Masters can be rigged to cheat then I would agree that somewhere it's happening, I just don't think rampid like some people are suggesting.

p.s. If you're certain shufflemaster is ringing their machines... stop talking about it and try to figure out a way to take advantage of it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gordonm888
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October 16th, 2019 at 10:50:22 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I think you've found your new signature.



What do you believe the context is of gordon's signature?



My signature, which has been the same for about six months, was indeed what BBB objected to. The message of my signature was that what happens in this forum is not life and death and people should stop getting so agitated about it.

I voluntarily honor this forum with my presence and my content, which is the most meaningful statement regarding what I think of this forum. The phrase "##### little forum in the sun-less backwaters of the on-line world" was meant to be poetry and was not intended to be disparaging.

But, whatever. I have deleted that message from my signature block. "Move on! Nothing to look at here! "

Edit: Also changed my avatar to a Poincare' Hyperbolic Disk.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Rigondeaux
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October 16th, 2019 at 3:59:46 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What the
I'm sure there's a lot of people that actually thought he was cheating, but they weren't willing to come out and say it in public until they had much more proof. There's people that know damn well he's cheating and still won't commit to saying that.

.



One is Rob Farha. Well known 2+2 poster and 5/10 +
player, who has been on the stones stream.

He and his friends determined Postle was cheating some time ago and decided not to play against him.

He said he regrets not going public and commended Veronica on having the balls to do so.
MaxPen
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October 16th, 2019 at 4:14:20 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

One is Rob Farha. Well known 2+2 poster and 5/10 +
player, who has been on the stones stream.

He and his friends determined Postle was cheating some time ago and decided not to play against him.

He said he regrets not going public and commended Veronica on having the balls to do so.



Any relation to Sammy Farha?

If I had a favorite poker played to watch in a game. It would be Sammy.
Rigondeaux
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October 17th, 2019 at 8:00:43 AM permalink
You know, somehow that never occurred to me.

I have never seen mention of it so I'd guess either it's a coincidence or his screen name is an allusion.
heatmap
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October 17th, 2019 at 3:19:42 PM permalink
*crickets*
Gandler
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October 20th, 2019 at 9:56:17 AM permalink
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2019/10/the-postle-lawsuit-is-not-as-clear-cut-as-it-may-seem-35686.htm


It is looking like it will be a challenging civil claim if no evidence is found.

So far no evidence has been released from the Stones investigation.
Rigondeaux
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October 21st, 2019 at 4:49:17 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2019/10/the-postle-lawsuit-is-not-as-clear-cut-as-it-may-seem-35686.htm


It is looking like it will be a challenging civil claim if no evidence is found.

So far no evidence has been released from the Stones investigation.




JFC. Mountains of evidence have been found.

The legal issues are another matter. I think he'll get away with it. Even suing him in civil court could just be a waste of time because he could either have blown all the money, or hidden it.

Suing Stones is complicated for a number of reasons.

That doesn't mean much as far as reality. You can't sue sports betting touts, even though most are obviously con artists. Many other examples.

Saying there is "no evidence" against Postle is like saying there was "no evidence" against OJ.
AxelWolf
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October 21st, 2019 at 5:34:15 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

JFC. Mountains of evidence have been found.

The legal issues are another matter. I think he'll get away with it. Even suing him in civil court could just be a waste of time because he could either have blown all the money, or hidden it.

Suing Stones is complicated for a number of reasons.

That doesn't mean much as far as reality. You can't sue sports betting touts, even though most are obviously con artists. Many other examples.

Saying there is "no evidence" against Postle is like saying there was "no evidence" against OJ.

There was significantly less evidence against OJ.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Gandler
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October 22nd, 2019 at 3:03:58 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

There was significantly less evidence against OJ.



OJ was also found not guilt of criminal wrongdoing.

He did face civil penalties.

Which I suspect may happen here. But, civil penalties may he hard because of how strange of a case this would be to many jurors.

But, a criminal conviction is very unlikely.

My personal prediction is no criminal charges. And, some kind of civil remedy (most likley a settlement from one party just to get it over with).

Rigondeaux
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October 22nd, 2019 at 4:28:15 PM permalink
https://twitter.com/Joeingram1/status/1186769750891716608

"Working on the rest of this weeks episodes and I finally found a hand where Postle folds to a 3bet after a deep look in his crotch and a hearty laugh.

His fold to 3bet after raising pre-flop is probably around 5% or less lol nh

Look at the hands he is against lmao"

He had AJ against JJ and AA.
gordonm888
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October 22nd, 2019 at 4:50:22 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

He had AJ against JJ and AA.



Nice Crotch-Theory-Optimal fold by Postle.

The notorious NY lawyer, Roy Cohn, reportedly once told one of his clients: "we're going to punish him by making him pay lawyers."

Postle and Kuraitis and Stones Poker Hall are all paying lawyers right now. At least we can find some immediate comfort in that.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Gandler
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October 22nd, 2019 at 4:51:44 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

https://twitter.com/Joeingram1/status/1186769750891716608

"Working on the rest of this weeks episodes and I finally found a hand where Postle folds to a 3bet after a deep look in his crotch and a hearty laugh.

His fold to 3bet after raising pre-flop is probably around 5% or less lol nh

Look at the hands he is against lmao"

He had AJ against JJ and AA.




Honestly I would probably fold an AJ out of position to a 3-bet.
Rigondeaux
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October 23rd, 2019 at 10:26:35 AM permalink
I would too. But the previous hand he made an identical call with 85off.

This was the first time anyone found him folding to a 3bet when in god mode. It just so happens that he had almost no way to win the hand if he called. He couldn't outflop his opponents, nor would he be able to bluff them. So he has a big laugh at the situation and folds.

But when he has 95off against AQ, he'll take a flop. Or, when he has 54 against AK and AK he'll call all in pre with a deep stack.

There is no explanation for these inconsistencies.

Honestly, if God came down from heaven and told me Postle was innocent and OJ actually was framed by the LAPD, I would be surprised in this order.

Least Surprising: OJ was framed. It's hypothetically possible. Wouldn't be the first time.

Middle surprising: God exists, and has come down from heaven to discuss these things with me.

Most surprising: Postle was somehow innocent. I just can't imagine any scenario or explination where this is true.
AxelWolf
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October 23rd, 2019 at 10:44:04 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

I would too. But the previous hand he made an identical call with 85off.

This was the first time anyone found him folding to a 3bet when in god mode. It just so happens that he had almost no way to win the hand if he called. He couldn't outflop his opponents, nor would he be able to bluff them. So he has a big laugh at the situation and folds.

But when he has 95off against AQ, he'll take a flop. Or, when he has 54 against AK and AK he'll call all in pre with a deep stack.

There is no explanation for these inconsistencies.

Honestly, if God came down from heaven and told me Postle was innocent and OJ actually was framed by the LAPD, I would be surprised in this order.

Least Surprising: OJ was framed. It's hypothetically possible. Wouldn't be the first time.

Middle surprising: God exists, and has come down from heaven to discuss these things with me.

Most surprising: Postle was somehow innocent. I just can't imagine any scenario or explination where this is true.

Anybody that actually knows anything about poker and took just a little time watching these hands and very suspicious circumstances and still isn't convinced he was cheating... I'm just going to assume they're trolling.

p.s. Rig's, you spelled explanation wrong(noob).
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Rigondeaux
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October 27th, 2019 at 9:43:44 PM permalink


This guy is a body language expert and goes through things from that perspective, as well as that of an outsider to poker and the situation.

Obviously, this sort of analysis is far from fool proof. Just an interesting look at the situation. Pretty entertaining too.
darkoz
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October 27th, 2019 at 10:08:09 PM permalink
from now on anyone who cheats at poker using a cell phone will be said to be "going postle"
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AxelWolf
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October 28th, 2019 at 3:42:56 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

from now on anyone who cheats at poker using a cell phone will be said to be "going postle"

Given your history you probably think it's circumstanceual and he's just a really skilled per player.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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October 28th, 2019 at 4:00:50 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Given your history you probably think it's circumstanceual and he's just a really skilled per player.



I am not very good at poker so dont have an opinion.

the AP poker players are saying all the "circumstantial" evidence is hard proof collectively. If I understood the complexities of the game I could better weigh in.

I am the type of person that will make up any jury. I have an open mind so convince me.

the main problem for you is the complexity of the game from a non-players perspective. Saying no pro would do x move if y circumstance happened unless he knew the other players hand requires my faith in YOUR abilities cause I dont understand the game and its moves.

So your job is to convince laymen without confusing schematics of the games complexities.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE WRONG. I am saying that to the average person you can't just say "its complicated so trust me, I see it even if you dont. the circumstances add up to solid proof." That type of prosecution will end up with a losing case

Figure out how to dumb it down as a prosecutor!
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October 28th, 2019 at 2:15:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I am not very good at poker so dont have an opinion.

the AP poker players are saying all the "circumstantial" evidence is hard proof collectively. If I understood the complexities of the game I could better weigh in.

I am the type of person that will make up any jury. I have an open mind so convince me.

the main problem for you is the complexity of the game from a non-players perspective. Saying no pro would do x move if y circumstance happened unless he knew the other players hand requires my faith in YOUR abilities cause I dont understand the game and its moves.

So your job is to convince laymen without confusing schematics of the games complexities.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE WRONG. I am saying that to the average person you can't just say "its complicated so trust me, I see it even if you dont. the circumstances add up to solid proof." That type of prosecution will end up with a losing case

Figure out how to dumb it down as a prosecutor!



150 years ago, out west, when a poker player was caught cheating, he was shot. There was no jury trial, no 'splaining how he cheated to a courtroom.

70 years ago, when someone was caught cheating in a mob-run Vegas casino, there was no trial by jury. He was hit in the knees with a baseball bat so that he would never walk again. Or driven out into the desert and pushed out of the car.

It is 2019. If the governmental justice system is still incapable of delivering justice when someone cheats - because its "too complicated", or "too hard to prove" or whatever - then vengeance may very well be exacted anyway. Just like child molesters tend to be killed in prison by other prisoners, I predict some fringe person in the poker community will enact some vengeance on Postle. Maybe he'll just be beat up in a parking lot or maybe it will be something worse. There's so much community anger that some idiot may very well do something stupid. If Postle was a member of my family, I would be concerned for his life. IMO, he'd be better off confessing, cooperating with the authorities and going through the court system.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Gandler
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October 28th, 2019 at 3:58:40 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

150 years ago, out west, when a poker player was caught cheating, he was shot. There was no jury trial, no 'splaining how he cheated to a courtroom.

70 years ago, when someone was caught cheating in a mob-run Vegas casino, there was no trial by jury. He was hit in the knees with a baseball bat so that he would never walk again. Or driven out into the desert and pushed out of the car.

It is 2019. If the governmental justice system is still incapable of delivering justice when someone cheats - because its "too complicated", or "too hard to prove" or whatever - then vengeance may very well be exacted anyway. Just like child molesters tend to be killed in prison by other prisoners, I predict some fringe person in the poker community will enact some vengeance on Postle. Maybe he'll just be beat up in a parking lot or maybe it will be something worse. There's so much community anger that some idiot may very well do something stupid. If Postle was a member of my family, I would be concerned for his life. IMO, he'd be better off confessing, cooperating with the authorities and going through the court system.




Terrible analogy.

150 years ago (heck 50 years ago), no RFID, no smartphones, no internet streaming poker games...

If you cheated back then you have to either physically mark the cards, or use some physical device or another person to transmit information to you. These would be clear and obvious transgressions. Clear cut if somebody was cheating.

Also comparing somebody who maybe cheated to a child molester? It's a poker game, it's not like he hacked the pentagon.....

People are acting like this is the crime of the century.....

Saying he deserves violence (even if guilty) is beyond absurd and perfusley barbaric.

There is a reason we do not live the same way as we did 150 years ago....
andysif
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October 28th, 2019 at 11:32:01 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

I don't know enough about tech to understand. It involves something like RFF cards. Basically, he would have someone who is watching the stream in real time and relaying information to him. It could be someone working on the show, or someone who knows how to do the hacking.

He could have some kind of buzzer on his body to tell him what to do.

Nobody has raised the possibility that he is marking cards. Why not go old school? If you were doing the thing with the UV contacts and invisible ink, you could mark them more elaborately and have a pretty good idea of what opponents have.



deleted
RS
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October 29th, 2019 at 3:12:04 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

...
People are acting like this is the crime of the century.....
....


Because it is.
AxelWolf
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October 29th, 2019 at 5:26:36 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

150 years ago, out west, when a poker player was caught cheating, he was shot. There was no jury trial, no 'splaining how he cheated to a courtroom.

70 years ago, when someone was caught cheating in a mob-run Vegas casino, there was no trial by jury. He was hit in the knees with a baseball bat so that he would never walk again. Or driven out into the desert and pushed out of the car.

It is 2019. If the governmental justice system is still incapable of delivering justice when someone cheats - because its "too complicated", or "too hard to prove" or whatever - then vengeance may very well be exacted anyway. Just like child molesters tend to be killed in prison by other prisoners, I predict some fringe person in the poker community will enact some vengeance on Postle. Maybe he'll just be beat up in a parking lot or maybe it will be something worse. There's so much community anger that some idiot may very well do something stupid. If Postle was a member of my family, I would be concerned for his life. IMO, he'd be better off confessing, cooperating with the authorities and going through the court system.

Where is Russ Hamilton nowadays? Obviously a little easer to protect yourself with 20 million or whatever. If Postal doesn't get any criminal charges my guess is NOTHING will happen.

He will probably figure out a way to cheat at poker online.

Remember, there's people out who actually love what he was doing. I have no doubt eventually he will be approached with some offer to do something else shady.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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October 29th, 2019 at 6:42:39 AM permalink
1. Postle's cheating was extensively videotaped and posted publicly - we have seldom if ever had proof that is as clear and publicly accessible as that. I fully expect computer forensics to further prove his cheating if the server has not been wiped by the tech staff.

2. Postle has been videotaped smirking and laughing as he cheated. He has been publicly touted as a poker god, he has been compared to Jesus Christ on the podcasts and has repeatedly claimed that he is one of the best poker players in the world. This is the kind of thing that infuriates people. Enrages people.

3. There are mentally ill poker players who are sleeping in their cars or on couches because they have lost their bankroll and perhaps some of them have played in a game with Postle.

4. I am definitely not endorsing violence against Postle. However, I do think there is a clear and present danger that it could happen. I think it is in Postle's best interest to confess and cooperate with the authorities.

5. In any case, Postle's life will be altered. His reputation is ruined. He will be shunned by the poker community and unable to play in any organized poker games. He will pay lawyers. He will always look over his shoulder to see if someone is coming for him. He is chaff, he is dross, he is less than nought.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
darkoz
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October 29th, 2019 at 8:02:54 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

1. Postle's cheating was extensively videotaped and posted publicly - we have seldom if ever had proof that is as clear and publicly accessible as that. I fully expect computer forensics to further prove his cheating if the server has not been wiped by the tech staff.

2. Postle has been videotaped smirking and laughing as he cheated. He has been publicly touted as a poker god, he has been compared to Jesus Christ on the podcasts and has repeatedly claimed that he is one of the best poker players in the world. This is the kind of thing that infuriates people. Enrages people.

3. There are mentally ill poker players who are sleeping in their cars or on couches because they have lost their bankroll and perhaps some of them have played in a game with Postle.

4. I am definitely not endorsing violence against Postle. However, I do think there is a clear and present danger that it could happen. I think it is in Postle's best interest to confess and cooperate with the authorities.

5. In any case, Postle's life will be altered. His reputation is ruined. He will be shunned by the poker community and unable to play in any organized poker games. He will pay lawyers. He will always look over his shoulder to see if someone is coming for him. He is chaff, he is dross, he is less than nought.



And yet under the law of the U.S. he is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

you seem to have left that one out
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gordonm888
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gordonm888
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October 29th, 2019 at 8:28:11 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

And yet under the law of the U.S. he is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

you seem to have left that one out



Yes, under the law the government is required to treat him as innocent until proven guilty. But Gandler and you insist that the legal system is inadequate to prosecute a case like this. And some people have been defrauded of very significant amounts of money by Postle and his accomplices, they have been injured. And, about 10-40% of the U.S. population routinely act outside of the law when it suits them to do so.

And shaming and shunning people is completely legal and does not require proof of guilt. And making them pay lawyers is completely legal. And vilifying them and destroying their reputation (with cause) is completely legal, because then the onus of proof is on the libeled person. And beating people up in parking lots occurs all the time, even though it is illegal. These things will happen, DarkOz. They are like the tide that inexorably rolls onto the beach and we cannot stop it . It is how society takes out its trash.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Rigondeaux
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October 29th, 2019 at 10:31:05 AM permalink
Gordo, anything is possible, but poker players are massive wimps. Chris Ferguson can walk into the WSOP, having stolen money from at least half the people in the room and be perfectly fine. You'd think someone would at least like, "accidentally" spill a drink on his head. Or maybe the WSOP would bar him. Or at least take down the giant pictures of him. Nope.

Probably the biggest issue here is that, after Postle skates, more people will realize that cheating at poker is a freeroll. Even if he doesn't, they'll realize that you can openly cheat on every hand on video and it will take a year to get caught.

I think I mentioned this here but maybe not. If I were a cheater, I would go to Texas. The card rooms are all new, and the staff is inexperienced. IDK if they even have meaningful surveillance or game protection. It barely exists even where poker has been around a while because casinos don't really care if you cheat other players. I can say, having worked in CA card rooms, that minor cheating is a routine occurrence. Some dealers attempt to pay losing hands and so forth every day. And big cheating scams are quite common.

Anyway, since gambling is illegal in Texas, I'd wager that there is no gaming commission and no laws on the books pertaining to cheating at gambling. LEO and DAs probably have little interest in the issue. They might even want the card clubs to have problems because they have used loopholes to get around the law.

If you went down there and marked cards and colluded the chances of being caught and punished are almost non-existent.

As I said, this has always been true. But now, everybody will know it.
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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October 29th, 2019 at 1:06:59 PM permalink
Rigondeaux, I know you are a poker player and I accept what you say. I have indeed wondered why I'm starting to hear about Chris Ferguson playing in tournaments during the past 3 years - I thought he would be shamed out of the community.

However, the Postle situation is different than the on-line Full Tilt poker scandal - I think the lawyer's defense of Ferguson and Lederer was a claim that they mismanaged their company. Postle is recorded on video as actively cheating at live poker over almost a year. Also, his demeanor and statements have been so objectionable.. In addition, it has been the poker community itself that has worked to collectively analyze the video evidence and evaluate the situation with the result that community awareness and ownership of this issue is sky-high. If I were in a cash game and Postle sat down, I would immediately leave. Not sure what I would do in a tournament; I would at least ask the floor manager to explain what he was doing to assure that Postle wasn't cheating. I question whether Tournament directors would allow Mike Postle to enter their tournament right now.

I do think the possibility of some poker player being a 'Tonya Harding' and Postle getting assaulted is real. But time will tell. LOL, it would make a good plot for a murder mystery. Was it Chris Moneymaker? Victoria Brill?

Cheating: yes, I agree that everyone is now suddenly aware that technical staff on streamed events can have real-time access to the hole cards. That is a problem.

Dealers paying off losing hands? Dealer collusion with players? Yucch.

Marking cards: I wasn't aware that marking cards was a common as you say -though I have heard about some players being escorted out of a (major) casino for that offense.

Player/player collusion has always been there, but collusion in betting/raising should be pretty obvious right? And sharing knowledge of hole cards doesn't amount to much of an advantage, I think.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Rigondeaux
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October 29th, 2019 at 1:48:13 PM permalink
A Postle murder would be a great Law n order episode. The lawyers trying to get justice for him would have to argue that he was cheating to establish motive. The defense could argue that he wasn't cheating, using Postle's own statements and those of his current lawyers. If the defense succeeds in proving Postle was a cheater, the jury becomes unsympathetic to the victim and more sympathetic to the murderer and now they have to deal with that.


We don't really have much idea how common collusion and card marking are. For the most part, they shouldn't give you an insurmountable, postle like advantage. Just a large edge.

Simply knowing whether your opponent has an ace or not would give you quite an edge on every ace high flop. Of course, you might wind up losing more than you normally would have by trying to bluff when he has flopped a set, but overall you'd do pretty well. Not only could you bluff opponents who don't have aces, you could go for max value when they have an ace and you beat it. When you have an ace and they don't, you could bet small, hoping to get called by a weaker pair or check, inducing a bluff.

I don't know a lot about collusion techniques but I think oftentimes, you'd just be picking up extra money here and there. You could manipulate things to inflate the pot when one guy has the nuts. Not every time, but say once or twice a session.

You could also do some simple signaling in hands where folded cards were important. Every time I say "baby" or say "where is the waitress" it means I would have had a big hand. e.g. if there are 3 diamonds, I folded 2. If there are 4 diamonds, I folded Ad. If there are 2 7s on the flop, I folded a 7.

I don't think it's the best technique, but I once played with these 3 friends who would constantly try to push everyone else out of the pot so they could flip for the money. One might have a mediocre top pair, the other has any kind of draw, even bottom pair, and they would go nuts trying to force a fold from anyone else in the pot. It worked for a while, but once I saw what they were doing and adjusted they gave me a bunch of money.
Rigondeaux
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October 29th, 2019 at 2:06:30 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888



Dealers paying off losing hands? Dealer collusion with players? Yucch.



I should clarify that I am mainly referring to the California games, meaning blackjack variants, PGP, etc. I worked as a banker.

In California, the casino has no direct stake in these games so cheating and dealer errors are mostly ignored. It is up to the individual players, or the employees of the corp banking the games to catch cheating, AP and dealer errors.

But it is an example of how casinos completely lose interest in these things once their money is not at risk.
DRich
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October 29th, 2019 at 2:26:44 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux


I don't know a lot about collusion techniques but I think oftentimes, you'd just be picking up extra money here and there. You could manipulate things to inflate the pot when one guy has the nuts. Not every time, but say once or twice a session.



I have been waiting for years for someone to publish a book on collusion techniques and strategies for online poker.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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October 29th, 2019 at 7:17:28 PM permalink
I imagine that the major collusion technique is to drive out a player with the best hand. Victim opens the betting, then colluder #1 raises and colluder #2 reraises. Victim folds and colluder#1 folds. No one sees the crap cards that the colluders held.

Very differently, the two colluders can signal their hole cards values to each other (or, online can communicate with each other.) For example, if they have the same high card rank, they may choose to fold. The knowledge of the hole cards of colluder #1 (who folds) might benefit colluder #2 post-flop if colluder #1 had a key card for making a straight or pairing the board. Overall, this would infrequently benefit the colluders and only by a small amount. Basically, knowledge of two cards should be worth about 4%, on average.

Of course, 3 or more colluders in an online 6-person game would be scary.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Gandler
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October 31st, 2019 at 5:59:45 PM permalink
Gold seems to have the right idea:

'

“I think no players should have cell phones or electronic devices when at the table (when playing in a live-streamed game),” he suggests. “And the players should be vetted so we can see what they’re bringing to the game.”

I asked Gold if he’d have a problem with security patting him down prior to playing in a live-stream game to ensure for precautionary reasons.

'

https://www.cardschat.com/news/jamie-gold-mike-postle-poker-cheating-85235



Instead of obsessing about one player we need to push for more proactive security techniques including vetting and pat downs. And, actually enforcing electronic bans.
AxelWolf
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November 1st, 2019 at 12:50:39 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Gold seems to have the right idea:

'

“I think no players should have cell phones or electronic devices when at the table (when playing in a live-streamed game),” he suggests. “And the players should be vetted so we can see what they’re bringing to the game.”

I asked Gold if he’d have a problem with security patting him down prior to playing in a live-stream game to ensure for precautionary reasons.

'

https://www.cardschat.com/news/jamie-gold-mike-postle-poker-cheating-85235



Instead of obsessing about one player we need to push for more proactive security techniques including vetting and pat downs. And, actually enforcing electronic bans.

This isn't some new great idea I'm sure most of us actually thought of disallowing cell phones and whatnot. However, disallow phones and start patting people down and watch how quickly the number of players playing poker plummet.

Of course they should focus on a solution and that should be the number one priority, however, they should also keep a significant amount of focus on "The God" as well. One good reason for that is to make sure people know if they get caught cheating at poker that they won't get away with it. He should be used as an example.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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November 1st, 2019 at 3:24:40 AM permalink
What's the latest on Postle? Has he been playing? Are they still running the stream? If he is still playing, I'm sure he's running like God, right? RIGHT??
Gandler
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November 1st, 2019 at 4:19:51 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

This isn't some new great idea I'm sure most of us actually thought of disallowing cell phones and whatnot. However, disallow phones and start patting people down and watch how quickly the number of players playing poker plummet.

Of course they should focus on a solution and that should be the number one priority, however, they should also keep a significant amount of focus on "The God" as well. One good reason for that is to make sure people know if they get caught cheating at poker that they won't get away with it. He should be used as an example.



Cell phones were already not allowed. The problem is it was never enforced.

This is sadly the case with many poker rooms.

Floor and security are afraid of aggressive enforcement because it may scare off players.... So instead they deal with scandals like this....
AxelWolf
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November 1st, 2019 at 7:28:20 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Cell phones were already not allowed. The problem is it was never enforced.

This is sadly the case with many poker rooms.

Floor and security are afraid of aggressive enforcement because it may scare off players.... So instead they deal with scandals like this....

And that's why Stones is also liable IMO. Remember when it was no cell phones in the casino, then no cell phones in view of the sports book? Next thing you know, you could have a cell phone hooked up to a laptop inside the sports book.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Puckerbutt
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January 9th, 2020 at 8:18:33 PM permalink
Update
If'n I'd a knowed you wanted to have went with me - I'd a seen that you got to get to go.
AxelWolf
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January 9th, 2020 at 9:18:25 PM permalink
Quote: Puckerbutt

Update

Thanks. I was actually wondering whatever happened with all this a few days ago. I did a little half-hearted searching but didn't find anything other than the fact that he wasn't being criminally charged. I still don't understand why that is.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
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January 10th, 2020 at 6:55:07 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Puckerbutt

Update

Thanks. I was actually wondering whatever happened with all this a few days ago. I did a little half-hearted searching but didn't find anything other than the fact that he wasn't being criminally charged. I still don't understand why that is.



Is there any estimate of how much money he scammed during his cheating times?
beachbumbabs
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January 10th, 2020 at 7:53:25 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Puckerbutt

Update

Thanks. I was actually wondering whatever happened with all this a few days ago. I did a little half-hearted searching but didn't find anything other than the fact that he wasn't being criminally charged. I still don't understand why that is.



Is there any estimate of how much money he scammed during his cheating times?



I havent read this article, so maybe this is in it, but 49 or 50 people are claiming to have been scammed for approx. $250,000 overall. (From an article I saw a couple days ago, didn't mark it). So FWIW.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Gandler
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January 16th, 2020 at 12:12:10 AM permalink
Quote: Puckerbutt

Update



There is no way that is good service....

He did not even the see defendant, just "movement of curtains and lights"...
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