WSOP: Most Influential Four Players
May 28th, 2019 at 1:11:19 PM
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The 50th World Series of Poker started this week. As part of the celebration, they are polling fans for their votes on the four most influential players in the tournament's history.
What say you?
Ace of Spades:
Ace of Hearts:
Ace of Diamonds:
Ace of Clubs:
What say you?
Ace of Spades:
Ace of Hearts:
Ace of Diamonds:
Ace of Clubs:
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 28th, 2019 at 1:55:39 PM
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I don’t know about most influential but the most important and there is no argument here is Chris Moneymaker. He changed poker by winning as a nobody, now all the “nobodies” think they have a chance.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
May 28th, 2019 at 2:01:38 PM
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Agreed. Moneymaker makes the list because he was the first "nobody" to win the big game.Quote: PokerGrinderI don’t know about most influential but the most important and there is no argument here is Chris Moneymaker. He changed poker by winning as a nobody, now all the “nobodies” think they have a chance.
Was there a person or player responsible for today's domination by Hold 'Em over draw or stud poker variants?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 28th, 2019 at 2:02:38 PM
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Doyle Brunson
Johnny Chan
Daniel Negreaneu
Chris Moneymaker
Johnny Chan
Daniel Negreaneu
Chris Moneymaker
May 28th, 2019 at 2:07:26 PM
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They missed Biggest D@#k category, and I don’t mean literally.
I nominate Jaime Gold.
Hopefully not a member here, lol.
And possibly the best of all time
Stu Unger.....RIP
I nominate Jaime Gold.
Hopefully not a member here, lol.
And possibly the best of all time
Stu Unger.....RIP
May 28th, 2019 at 2:11:04 PM
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Doyle Brunson
Chris Moneymaker
Jack Binion (is this cheating?)
Johnny Moss (a stretch on my part, but such a legend)
Chris Moneymaker
Jack Binion (is this cheating?)
Johnny Moss (a stretch on my part, but such a legend)
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
May 28th, 2019 at 2:13:29 PM
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Tend to agree with PG. It also coincided with the use of hole card cams and stuff, IIRC. I believe Robert Verconi won it previously as a recreational player. However, it was less fun to watch and not heavily marketed.
It was kind of a perfect storm of ESPN going with televised poker and a recreational player, who had a bit of charisma and a name headline writers dream of.
I don't know that any other player really matters. Substitute Greg Raymer with any other average family guy, and it's the same. Nobody even knows who the winners are now.
During the poker boom, the famous players helped promote the game. But really, they were mostly interchangeable. I guess Helmuth, but he's really just famous for being a POS. And, the fact that they let him go almost to the point of cheating, probably detracts from the game.
I remember during the boom, a lot of guys thought it was cool to act like Phil. That sucked, but I guess it was an influence.
If a woman ever wins it (lol), she'll immediately become number 2 behind Moneymaker.
It was kind of a perfect storm of ESPN going with televised poker and a recreational player, who had a bit of charisma and a name headline writers dream of.
I don't know that any other player really matters. Substitute Greg Raymer with any other average family guy, and it's the same. Nobody even knows who the winners are now.
During the poker boom, the famous players helped promote the game. But really, they were mostly interchangeable. I guess Helmuth, but he's really just famous for being a POS. And, the fact that they let him go almost to the point of cheating, probably detracts from the game.
I remember during the boom, a lot of guys thought it was cool to act like Phil. That sucked, but I guess it was an influence.
If a woman ever wins it (lol), she'll immediately become number 2 behind Moneymaker.
May 28th, 2019 at 2:18:52 PM
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By the way, WSOP is a much larger and diverse event than than just the WSOP No-Limit Texas Hold'em Main Event.
Doyle Brunson
Phil Helmuth (most WSOP bracelets)
Daniel Negreaneu (never won the main event)
Chris Moneymaker*
*Honestly, the person who deserves mention is the technical guy that came up with the way for the TV audience to peek at everybody's hole cards. That opened up poker to a TV audience and made it dramatic and comprehensible . The first year that was done was 2005 - the year that Chris Moneymaker won, and IMO this innovation was far more responsible than Moneymaker for the explosion of interest in poker.
Doyle Brunson
Phil Helmuth (most WSOP bracelets)
Daniel Negreaneu (never won the main event)
Chris Moneymaker*
*Honestly, the person who deserves mention is the technical guy that came up with the way for the TV audience to peek at everybody's hole cards. That opened up poker to a TV audience and made it dramatic and comprehensible . The first year that was done was 2005 - the year that Chris Moneymaker won, and IMO this innovation was far more responsible than Moneymaker for the explosion of interest in poker.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 28th, 2019 at 2:29:46 PM
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Quote: MaxPenDoyle Brunson
Johnny Chan
Daniel Negreaneu
Chris Moneymaker
Moneymaker was previously mentioned, Brunson wrote the book and Negreanu is a great player and better communicator. I could understand how they could be "influential". Chan, despite winning the big game back to back, hasn't really been in the media as the others. I'm not sure about him as top four. What about Johnny Moss, Phil Hellmuth, Mike Sexton or Vince Van Patten?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 28th, 2019 at 2:41:32 PM
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I think Moneymaker and Brunson are shoo ins. I think Chan with winning it twice helped popularize the game too with his role or influence in Rounders. I have a hard time with Negreanu if basing it solely on the WSOP. Perhaps Hellmuth
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
May 28th, 2019 at 2:49:11 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaMoneymaker was previously mentioned, Brunson wrote the book and Negreanu is a great player and better communicator. I could understand how they could be "influential". Chan, despite winning the big game back to back, hasn't really been in the media as the others. I'm not sure about him as top four. What about Johnny Moss, Phil Hellmuth, Mike Sexton or Vince Van Patten?
Chan with the back to back wins and portrayal of his character in movies brought the foundation of growth to the game. There are many arguments for his place. Brunson and Moneymaker are indusputable. Negreaneu cannot be ignored. He is and was the ultimate ambassador to the game and helped fuel the growth more than any other.
May 28th, 2019 at 3:04:36 PM
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Quote: MaxPen. Negreaneu cannot be ignored. He is and was the ultimate ambassador to the game and helped fuel the growth more than any other.
Not withstanding the disaster his attempt to sell pieces of his WSOP was this weekend.
Good gamble on his part as it takes more luck than skill to win anymore in the Main Event.
That said it was a PR mess.
May 28th, 2019 at 3:14:56 PM
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Moneymaker
Hellmuth
Unger
Negranau (or Brunson)
Hellmuth
Unger
Negranau (or Brunson)
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 28th, 2019 at 3:27:00 PM
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Moneymaker (most important)
Unger
Brunson is too simple, I think you have to include all the old guys with Brunson.
Dwan
The reason I included Dwan is he became big when tv poker became big. Everyone loved the craziness of Dwan.
Unger
Brunson is too simple, I think you have to include all the old guys with Brunson.
Dwan
The reason I included Dwan is he became big when tv poker became big. Everyone loved the craziness of Dwan.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
May 28th, 2019 at 3:33:28 PM
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Strange that nobody mentions Phil Ivey. Not sure he belongs there, but worth a mention.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
May 28th, 2019 at 3:36:04 PM
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Quote: FCBLComishStrange that nobody mentions Phil Ivey. Not sure he belongs there, but worth a mention.
Tends to keep to himself, he doesn’t show much personality.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
May 28th, 2019 at 3:58:26 PM
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Doyle Brunson
Phil Hulmuth
Chris Moneymaker
Johnny Chan
Honorable mentions:
Daniel Negreano
Phil Ivy
Gus Hansen
Antonio Esfandiari
Scotty Nguyen
ZCore13
Phil Hulmuth
Chris Moneymaker
Johnny Chan
Honorable mentions:
Daniel Negreano
Phil Ivy
Gus Hansen
Antonio Esfandiari
Scotty Nguyen
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
May 28th, 2019 at 4:07:40 PM
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Quote: BozNot withstanding the disaster his attempt to sell pieces of his WSOP was this weekend.
Good gamble on his part as it takes more luck than skill to win anymore in the Main Event.
That said it was a PR mess.
Maybe he used the same sales consultants as Burning Man??
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
May 28th, 2019 at 4:17:36 PM
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Quote: BozNot withstanding the disaster his attempt to sell pieces of his WSOP was this weekend.
Good gamble on his part as it takes more luck than skill to win anymore in the Main Event.
That said it was a PR mess.
Almost every full time player sells some of their action. Many are in debt to permanent stakeholders that fund all of their play. Very few use all their own money and keep it all when they win.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
May 28th, 2019 at 4:31:12 PM
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Not looking it up, I have no idea who DWAN is.
Brunson
Moneymaker
Negreanu
Chan
Hard to limit it to just 4.
Brunson
Moneymaker
Negreanu
Chan
Hard to limit it to just 4.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
May 28th, 2019 at 4:47:11 PM
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Quote: MaxPenDoyle Brunson
Johnny Chan
Daniel Negreaneu
Chris Moneymaker
I haven't seen anyone yet mention Amarillo Slim. If I remember correctly, he won the FIRST WSOP. Very colorful, a spokesman. Does that count for anything?
How soon we forget.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 4:49:56 PM
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Jennifer Tilly probably influences people in a way that can not be described on a PG forum.
May 28th, 2019 at 4:52:49 PM
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You are confusing Slim and Moss.Quote: bobbartopI haven't seen anyone yet mention Amarillo Slim. If I remember correctly, he won the FIRST WSOP. Very colorful, a spokesman. Does that count for anything?
How soon we forget.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
May 28th, 2019 at 4:53:01 PM
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Quote: bobbartopI haven't seen anyone yet mention Amarillo Slim. If I remember correctly, he won the FIRST WSOP. Very colorful, a spokesman. Does that count for anything?
How soon we forget.
Tends to happen after being indicted for child molestation.
May 28th, 2019 at 4:56:54 PM
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Quote: Rigondeaux
If a woman ever wins it (lol), she'll immediately become number 2 behind Moneymaker.
"If a woman ever wins the WSOP I'll cut my throat.”
-- Amarillo Slim Preston
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 5:00:13 PM
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Quote: unJonYou are confusing Slim and Moss.
I'm not confusing them, I was just wrong. First time for everything.
Thanks for catching that, Unjon. :-)
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 5:08:08 PM
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Quote: MaxPenTends to happen after being indicted for child molestation.
Yes, but as for promoting the game of poker, at the time, I don't think anyone can beat Slim. He was huge, back in the day. (1972)
And I never wanted to believe the charges, there had to be some explanation. Maybe, maybe not. It destroyed him, though. Of course, I don't know what it did to the little girl. Bad all the way around. What a shame.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 5:11:20 PM
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Quote: BozThey missed Biggest D@#k category, and I don’t mean literally.
I nominate Jaime Gold.
Is that redacted for "donk"?
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 5:17:18 PM
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Quote: unJonYou are confusing Slim and Moss.
Speaking of Moss, when I was in my young 20s, long time ago, I think I saw Moss at the Riviera (?), and sheepishly walked up to him to ask him for an autograph. He told me, go away, don't bother me. Kinda crushed me, for all of maybe 15 minutes. I composed myself, and thought "fk that old mthrfkr, I don't want his autograph".
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 6:45:59 PM
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Quote: bobbartopI haven't seen anyone yet mention Amarillo Slim. If I remember correctly, he won the FIRST WSOP. Very colorful, a spokesman. Does that count for anything?
How soon we forget.
I don't think you want him mentioned if you are the WSOP. Wasn't he accused of pedophilia or something?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 28th, 2019 at 6:54:25 PM
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I would like to nominate Chris Ferguson. He has earned his dues.
Eric Seidel
Stu Unger
Eric Seidel
Stu Unger
May 28th, 2019 at 7:03:29 PM
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I was recently offered what was purported to be a very limited edition photo from the 1970 World Series. It's a nice photo, about 16x24 in a frame with all the people identified. Actually, two unknowns photo bomb the picture and are identified as such. It doesn't look like there's anyone under fifty in the photo. Doyle Brunson is the babyface
Sadly, I think it is a laser printed knockoff worth a fraction of the asking price.
Sadly, I think it is a laser printed knockoff worth a fraction of the asking price.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
May 28th, 2019 at 7:58:53 PM
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Negreanu was, until recently, the all time money winner in poker. He has won many WSOP bracelets and has been the mediagenic face of poker.
Brunson is a 2-time main event winner and (unlike Jackie Chan) became a great ambassador for the game.
Hellmouth -more bracelets than anyone
Moneymaker - we all know his story
Chris Ferguson is a pariah in poker because he, along with Howard Lederer, helped found and manage FullTiltPoker, the on-line poker service which was allowing players to cheat and which did not return some players' money when the government cracked down on online poker. Ferguson has zero chance of being named.
Brunson is a 2-time main event winner and (unlike Jackie Chan) became a great ambassador for the game.
Hellmouth -more bracelets than anyone
Moneymaker - we all know his story
Chris Ferguson is a pariah in poker because he, along with Howard Lederer, helped found and manage FullTiltPoker, the on-line poker service which was allowing players to cheat and which did not return some players' money when the government cracked down on online poker. Ferguson has zero chance of being named.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
May 28th, 2019 at 8:56:55 PM
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Quote: BozThey missed Biggest D@#k category, and I don’t mean literally.
I nominate Jaime Gold.
He's still pretty active. I've seen him a few times. Everyone says he's very cool and insanely generous.
May 28th, 2019 at 8:58:17 PM
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Quote: DRichI don't think you want him mentioned if you are the WSOP. Wasn't he accused of pedophilia or something?
I know. Max Pen already brought it up and it has been discussed. But besides that mess, Slim really was the biggest thing for poker back in the day. I think, in fact I am sure, a lot of people on this group are just too young to remember. Over 40 years ago, Slim was the nuts.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 28th, 2019 at 9:07:17 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Negreanu was, until recently, the all time money winner in poker. He has won many WSOP bracelets and has been the mediagenic face of poker.
Brunson is a 2-time main event winner and (unlike Jackie Chan) became a great ambassador for the game.
Hellmouth -more bracelets than anyone
Moneymaker - we all know his story
Chris Ferguson is a pariah in poker because he, along with Howard Lederer, helped found and manage FullTiltPoker, the on-line poker service which was allowing players to cheat and which did not return some players' money when the government cracked down on online poker. Ferguson has zero chance of being named.
Jackie Chan?
Uh, anyway, can someone else confirm this cheating allegation with Ferguson and Full Tilt? I don't remember that. Now Russ Hamilton, the big fat crook, and Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker, et.al., is a different story, I remember THAT very well.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 29th, 2019 at 4:56:36 AM
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Same list as.Gordon for.me.
Brunson
Hellmuth
Negreanu
Moneymaker
Voting as an outsider - I think the poker community would legitimately disagree with one or more of those.
My opinion could well be a product of widespread publicity more than true poker gods. They might well have good arguments for Amarillo Slim, Jackie Chan, Stu Unger, Antonio Esfandiari, Barry Greenwood, couple others that are huge cash game winners but not known for tournament bracelets.
Brunson
Hellmuth
Negreanu
Moneymaker
Voting as an outsider - I think the poker community would legitimately disagree with one or more of those.
My opinion could well be a product of widespread publicity more than true poker gods. They might well have good arguments for Amarillo Slim, Jackie Chan, Stu Unger, Antonio Esfandiari, Barry Greenwood, couple others that are huge cash game winners but not known for tournament bracelets.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 29th, 2019 at 4:56:36 AM
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Same list as.Gordon for.me.
Brunson
Hellmuth
Negreanu
Moneymaker
Voting as an outsider - I think the poker community would legitimately disagree with one or more of those.
My opinion could well be a product of widespread publicity more than true poker gods. They might well have good arguments for Amarillo Slim, Jackie Chan, Stu Unger, Antonio Esfandiari, Barry Greenwood, couple others that are huge cash game winners but not known for tournament bracelets.
Brunson
Hellmuth
Negreanu
Moneymaker
Voting as an outsider - I think the poker community would legitimately disagree with one or more of those.
My opinion could well be a product of widespread publicity more than true poker gods. They might well have good arguments for Amarillo Slim, Jackie Chan, Stu Unger, Antonio Esfandiari, Barry Greenwood, couple others that are huge cash game winners but not known for tournament bracelets.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 29th, 2019 at 5:17:31 AM
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I like Gordon's list, too. Although, I might replace Phil Helmuth with Mike McDermott! ;)
I think what makes Brunson stand out among all the "old-school" guys as being the most influential is his book, Super/System.
I think what makes Brunson stand out among all the "old-school" guys as being the most influential is his book, Super/System.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
May 29th, 2019 at 6:24:08 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabs
Jackie Chan
Can we stop this before it gets out of hand?
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 29th, 2019 at 7:26:50 AM
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Quote: bobbartopCan we stop this before it gets out of hand?
Lol, sorry.
Johnny Chan.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 29th, 2019 at 7:46:06 AM
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One could only wonder what Stu Unger could have done if he didn’t get so messed up on drugs during his prime years. And he had the leak of his sports gambling addiction. Still his 97 win showed he still had something left, even with the obvious mess he became.
May 29th, 2019 at 7:55:36 AM
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I've had Nolan Dalla's book sitting on a shelf in my hallway, sitting there for years, I pass it every time I go through the hallway. I just can't bring myself to crack open that book. Just can't do it.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
May 29th, 2019 at 8:40:35 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsSame list as.Gordon for.me.
Brunson
Hellmuth
Negreanu
Moneymaker
Voting as an outsider - I think the poker community would legitimately disagree with one or more of those.
My opinion could well be a product of widespread publicity more than true poker gods. They might well have good arguments for Amarillo Slim, Jackie Chan, Stu Unger, Antonio Esfandiari, Barry Greenwood, couple others that are huge cash game winners but not known for tournament bracelets.
Johnny Chan and I’m assuming you mean Barry Greenstein?
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
May 29th, 2019 at 8:41:29 AM
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I honestly don’t understand why people say Hellmuth. Lots of bracelets but what did he do to make poker what it is?
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
May 29th, 2019 at 9:26:16 AM
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Quote: PokerGrinderI honestly don’t understand why people say Hellmuth. Lots of bracelets but what did he do to make poker what it is?
He is the classic bad guy character. Makes a great story line with all of his success.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 29th, 2019 at 9:33:14 AM
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He certainly made it interesting. let's not forget how young he was when he beat Jonny chan. And there is much more. I think he definitely helped make poker what it is today.Quote: PokerGrinderI honestly don’t understand why people say Hellmuth. Lots of bracelets but what did he do to make poker what it is?
This is not a suggestion, however, I always liked watching Sammy Farha play.
I don't think Furgison knew what was going on.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
May 29th, 2019 at 1:05:05 PM
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Quote: BozOne could only wonder what Stu Unger could have done if he didn’t get so messed up on drugs during his prime years. And he had the leak of his sports gambling addiction. Still his 97 win showed he still had something left, even with the obvious mess he became.
One could argue that it was drugs that made and so good. Sometimes that extra adrenaline, or extra focus, or numb I don't care feeling can alter the way you play.. and many times work to your advantage. I wrote a piece here entiltle PEDS In Poker. It seems like everyone is on some med in the poker rooms. It gives them and added Edge mentally.. therefore I would consider that a performance-enhancing drug. I'm not discriminating against it. I'm just calling it like it is.
Getting back to influential players in poker. I first learned of the name Johnny Chan and poker from the movie Rounders. He became the icon of the poker world. Everyone knew his name. I met him several years later and did some work together. He is a great guy!
Following him, I would say Chris Moneymaker for the reasons everyone else mentioned.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
May 29th, 2019 at 1:46:55 PM
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Here is the link..
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/28288-peds-in-poker/#post578071
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/28288-peds-in-poker/#post578071
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
May 29th, 2019 at 2:21:20 PM
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Quote: bobbartopCan we stop this before it gets out of hand?
Yep, sorry, Johnny Chan, d'oh. <headslap>
Chan is not a great communicator, which is why I wouldn't put him on my list of Top 4 influential poker players.
Someone else who has been influential has been Dan Harrington, who wrote a series of books on playing Texas Hold'em (after the Moneymaker win) that were superbly well-written and that almost everyone read. He helped to popularize and universalize some of the terms in Texas hold-em. He has finished as high as 2nd or 3rd, I think, in the main event but has never been famous as a player. But, come to think of it, he's a better player than Moneymaker.
Phil Ivey does have 10 WSOP bracelets, but he has spent the last 5 years or so playing high-stakes cash games in Asia (like Macau). He's too smart and too focused on making money to have been influential.
Someone who I predict will not be on the list: Norman Chad!
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
