Minimum Hole Cards When Three Handed

What are the lowest hole cards you can have and reasonably expect to be in the lead pre-flop when playing Texas Hold Em three handed? Is it different than when you are at a full table?

Quote: Ayecarumba

What are the lowest hole cards you can have and reasonably expect to be in the lead pre-flop when playing Texas Hold Em three handed? Is it different than when you are at a full table?

I'm not an expert, but I've done some reading, and one common thing for the experts seems to be that the fewer people on the table, the larger your range should be. I would think the math would back that up.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm not an expert, but I've done some reading, and one common thing for the experts seems to be that the fewer people on the table, the larger your range should be. I would think the math would back that up.

Seems like an odd question to me, even though I'm sure Ayecaruma is serious. Just to be clear, I assume he means before ANY action. I wouldn't "reasonably expect" to be in the lead with less than Ace-anything.

Quote: bobbartop

Seems like an odd question to me, even though I'm sure Ayecaruma is serious. Just to be clear, I assume he means before ANY action. I wouldn't "reasonably expect" to be in the lead with less than Ace-anything.

It makes some sense to me, because I think the more people in the hand, the better the best hand would be on average. I'm discounting any reads you have on people or position in saying that - just that the more cards dealt, the more likely it is that someone has an ace, king, or pocket pair, since those are finite odds.

If only 6 cards are out, there's less than a 50% chance one of them is an ace. A full table of 9, 18 hole cards, it's close to a sure thing there will be at least 1 ace out. Like that.

Quote: beachbumbabs

It makes some sense to me, because I think the more people in the hand, the better the best hand would be on average. I'm discounting any reads you have on people or position in saying that - just that the more cards dealt, the more likely it is that someone has an ace, king, or pocket pair, since those are finite odds.

If only 6 cards are out, there's less than a 50% chance one of them is an ace. A full table of 9, 18 hole cards, it's close to a sure thing there will be at least 1 ace out. Like that.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, that's not what I meant. Of course there's a big difference in a ring game, goes without saying, that's what's odd about the post. I only meant the three-handed part, and the phrase "reasonably expect". I don't think I could "reasonably expect" to be in the lead with King-anything, three-handed.

The Wizard did simulations for n-player Texas hold'em. Here are his three-player results: https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-hold-em/3-player-game/.

Sorry if the OP wasn’t clear, but BBB understood what I was looking for. I know the fewer players, the wider the range of starting hands, but what hand is 50/50 pre-flop with only three players?

Quote: ChesterDog

The Wizard did simulations for n-player Texas hold'em. Here are his three-player results: https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-hold-em/3-player-game/.

Thanks for the link ChesterDog. I think this table answers my question in its’ “additive probability” column, which is defined as the probability of getting this hand or stronger. I was surprised that the first hand rarer than 50% is:

Quote: Ayecarumba

Sorry if the OP wasn’t clear, but BBB understood what I was looking for. I know the fewer players, the wider the range of starting hands, but what hand is 50/50 pre-flop with only three players?

Quote: ChesterDog

The Wizard did simulations for n-player Texas hold'em. Here are his three-player results: https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-hold-em/3-player-game/.

Thanks for the link ChesterDog. I think this table answers my question in its’ “additive probability” column, which is defined as the probability of getting this hand or stronger. I was surprised that the first hand rarer than 50% is:

Show Spoiler

6/9 suited

Hi Ayecarumba. With all due respect, it was your question, your post, so who better to understand what you were asking, than you? As a slightly confused reader I can't see that the median (?) hand in distribution translates to a reasonable expectation to be in the lead. But that wasn't what you were asking anyway, apparently. Don't mind me, I get confused easily, and it's usually the fault of my own doing. I'm glad the others helped you. Best luck to you. - BB

Quote: Ayecarumba

Sorry if the OP wasn’t clear, but BBB understood what I was looking for. I know the fewer players, the wider the range of starting hands, but what hand is 50/50 pre-flop with only three players?

Quote: ChesterDog

The Wizard did simulations for n-player Texas hold'em. Here are his three-player results: https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-hold-em/3-player-game/.

Thanks for the link ChesterDog. I think this table answers my question in its’ “additive probability” column, which is defined as the probability of getting this hand or stronger. I was surprised that the first hand rarer than 50% is:

Show Spoiler

6/9 suited

Well it’s a weird ordering in that link with 96s right above K3o. *shrug*

I think you’ll be better served playing around with a hold em calculator. They let you play against random hands and show EV.

It completely depends upon whether the other two players raised + called, raised+ reraised, or limped (called and called) to get into the hand.

1. Most people are guided by: the more people in the hand than the bigger the return if you do get a favorable flop. Therefore, the 4th and 5th pre-flop callers/limpers can usually do so with average to poor hands -because the size of the pot they can win justifies making a small bet even with mediocre-to-bad hands.

So, if you are on the button and you open the betting by calling, and the small blind calls and the big blind checks, then no one has shown any pre-flop strength. You might reasonably expect to have the best pre-flop hand with J-9 off or K3 suited.

However, if you have raised in early position, and someone goes all in behind you, and then a third player goes all-in with a larger stack and you call - well, I expect the 3rd player to have QQ, KK or AA. And if you have AQ-suited I expect that you are almost certainly beat.
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Remember - people's decisions to raise, fold or call are information, and the information has different meanings dependent upon the situation, the position of the players, the relevant stack sizes, etc. If you ignore that information than you have no hope of winning in the long run. That information is far more important that some analysis of how high the highest hand will be of 3 random hands.

Quote: gordonm888

It completely depends upon whether the other two players raised + called, raised+ reraised, or limped (called and called) to get into the hand.

1. Most people are guided by: the more people in the hand than the bigger the return if you do get a favorable flop. Therefore, the 4th and 5th pre-flop callers/limpers can usually do so with average to poor hands -because the size of the pot they can win justifies making a small bet even with mediocre-to-bad hands.

So, if you are on the button and you open the betting by calling, and the small blind calls and the big blind checks, then no one has shown any pre-flop strength. You might reasonably expect to have the best pre-flop hand with J-9 off or K3 suited.

However, if you have raised in early position, and someone goes all in behind you, and then a third player goes all-in with a larger stack and you call - well, I expect the 3rd player to have QQ, KK or AA. And if you have AQ-suited I expect that you are almost certainly beat.
*************************
Remember - people's decisions to raise, fold or call are information, and the information has different meanings dependent upon the situation, the position of the players, the relevant stack sizes, etc. If you ignore that information than you have no hope of winning in the long run. That information is far more important that some analysis of how high the highest hand will be of 3 random hands.

I don't think anyone is suggesting differently. Aye was isolating one factor, that of 3 at the table, without considering your position, if anyone was already indicating action, stack sizes, or any reads you have on other players. For sure all those other factors have to be a part of your consideration.

delete

Quote: bobbartop

Sorry, I wasn't clear, that's not what I meant. Of course there's a big difference in a ring game, goes without saying, that's what's odd about the post. I only meant the three-handed part, and the phrase "reasonably expect". I don't think I could "reasonably expect" to be in the lead with King-anything, three-handed.

Thanks Bobbartop. At the end of the day, knowing your hand is probably better than half the other possible starting hands is not enough information alone, and any action will depend on a number of factors that you and others have pointed out.

I suppose a follow up question for the tournament poker players is “Forgetting the data in the tables, what starting hand would you need in order to say, ‘I’ve probably got the best hand between the three of us.’”

AQ? Any pair? Suited connectors?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Thanks Bobbartop. At the end of the day, knowing your hand is probably better than half the other possible starting hands is not enough information alone, and any action will depend on a number of factors that you and others have pointed out.

I suppose a follow up question for the tournament poker players is “Forgetting the data in the tables, what starting hand would you need in order to say, ‘I’ve probably got the best hand between the three of us.’”

AQ? Any pair? Suited connectors?

Can I ask you a personal question? I don't want to offend you. But are you just starting out in poker? Are you a young person, or an old man like me?

Some players prefer video poker to live poker, a lot less subjective. Do you enjoy the interaction of live poker? Some people love it. It can be stressful.