Pai Gow Poker Wheel Question

I'm trying to get this game down pat (it's on my casino game bucket list) and have one question. An unsuited "A, 2, 3, 4, 5" is called "The Wheel" and (in most casinos) is the second highest straight. So then is a suited "A, 2, 3, 4, 5" (called something clever) the second highest straight flush?

A suited wheel is called a steel wheel. No idea if it's ranked as the 2nd highest straight flush though.

Quote: Gialmere

I'm trying to get this game down pat (it's on my casino game bucket list) and have one question. An unsuited "A, 2, 3, 4, 5" is called "The Wheel" and (in most casinos) is the second highest straight. So then is a suited "A, 2, 3, 4, 5" (called something clever) the second highest straight flush?

I have a pretty good feeling that will never need to be answered for you at a casino.

Quote: FinsRule

I have a pretty good feeling that will never need to be answered for you at a casino.

Heh, I suppose it wouldn't even if I spent a lifetime dealing Pai Gow in a casino. But I'm a rules junkie, the type of person who reads game rules as a form of relaxation (and hit a mother load at the Wizard sites). I got dealt a wheel while practicing on the play-for-free game here. Not surprisingly it simply won outright as a straight in back, but it got me wondering. Has the wheel ever been used as a sweetener in a side bet (with/without joker, steel etc)? I don't see it in the ones listed at Woo so I suppose not. But if a game's going to have such a quirky rule then why not squeeze all the juice you can out of it?

Quote: Gialmere

Heh, I suppose it wouldn't even if I spent a lifetime dealing Pai Gow in a casino. But I'm a rules junkie, the type of person who reads game rules as a form of relaxation (and hit a mother load at the Wizard sites). I got dealt a wheel while practicing on the play-for-free game here. Not surprisingly it simply won outright as a straight in back, but it got me wondering. Has the wheel ever been used as a sweetener in a side bet (with/without joker, steel etc)? I don't see it in the ones listed at Woo so I suppose not. But if a game's going to have such a quirky rule then why not squeeze all the juice you can out of it?

Yes. In EZ PaiGow, Dan Lubin (the inventor, and a greatly missed member here -RIP) called the Steel Wheel the Lubin wheel and put it on the bonus paytable. Think it was 100-1? Should be listed on the Woo site under that game.

Last place I played EZ PGP, they had changed the name to something sort of Chinese, but I don't remember the word. Not sure why that happened. But it still pays.

I did a quick search and found at least three states that specifically mention A-2-3-4-5 as the highest ranking straight flush in their gaming regs. PA, MA, and MD

The highest? Whoa. Curiouser and curiouser.

Not curious at all, just a matter of semantics. Traditional poker rankings list suited AKQJT as a royal flush, not straight flush. A-2-3-4-5 is the second highest straight and if it's suited, it's the highest straight flush (still obv ranked lower than a royal flush.)

But if you have 5 aces and a pair of kings, should you play the full house with aces up or the 4 aces with the kings up?

In general opt to play unbeatable hands over hands that can be beaten

Quote: sabre

In general opt to play unbeatable hands over hands that can be beaten

There is no unbeatable hand.

Edit - oops. Royal flush with AA. You can’t lose, only push.

Quote: FinsRule

There is no unbeatable hand.

Edit - oops. Royal flush with AA. You can’t lose, only push.

In tiles you can get an unbeatable, untieable hand.

I specifically asked about A-5 straight flush and was told it was highest non Royal straight flush.

Quote: Wiggins

I did a quick search and found at least three states that specifically mention A-2-3-4-5 as the highest ranking straight flush in their gaming regs. PA, MA, and MD

I've always assumed this to be the case. The probability of a straight flush stand off, where one is the wheel, is 1 in 14.4 million.

The wheel being the second highest straight/straight flush in pai gow poker I think is perhaps the stupidest rule in all of casino gambling. Can anyone top it? A rule that adds senseless complexity to a game, is counter to standard rules, and has absolutely no upside to either player nor dealer.

Quote: Wizard

The probability of a straight flush stand off, where one is the wheel, is 1 in 14.4 million.

Are you factoring the large number of times you would not even play the straight flush? (A,2,3,4,5,4,5) (A,2,3,4,5,Q, K all suited, etc.....)

Quote: FinsRule

There is no unbeatable hand.

Edit - oops. Royal flush with AA. You can’t lose, only push.

Any time the Player has 4 or more Aces/Joker and he puts AA in front, he cannot be beaten or tied in front, so he's guaranteed not to lose, though he may push.

Dog Hand

Quote: FinsRule

But if you have 5 aces and a pair of kings, should you play the full house with aces up or the 4 aces with the kings up?

If you are Banking, play KK in front, since your front will beat (or tie, which is the same thing when you're the Bank) any front the Players can produce, and 5 A's is better than a Full House, since it'll beat a player's quads.

Dog Hand

P.S. As long as we're on Fantasy Island, make sure you bet the table max on both the PGP and the Fortune sidebets before you get this hand ;-)

Quote: DogHand

Any time the Player has 4 or more Aces/Joker and he puts AA in front, he cannot be beaten or tied in front, so he's guaranteed not to lose, though he may push.

Dog Hand

Ok, let me try again. There is no guaranteed winning hand in pai gow poker, only in pai gow tiles - gee joon and a teen pair.

Quote: SOOPOO

Are you factoring the large number of times you would not even play the straight flush? (A,2,3,4,5,4,5) (A,2,3,4,5,Q, K all suited, etc.....)

Yes. I'm going off of how often a dealer plays a straight flush in the high from my Pai Gow Poker Power Ratings.

Quote: Wiggins

Not curious at all, just a matter of semantics. Traditional poker rankings list suited AKQJT as a royal flush, not straight flush. A-2-3-4-5 is the second highest straight and if it's suited, it's the highest straight flush (still obv ranked lower than a royal flush.)

Ah, I see. So your mileage may vary from state to state and casino to casino but in general: An unsuited Wheel is the second highest ranked straight and a suited Wheel is the highest ranked straight flush with a Royal Flush above it in its own separate category. Oddly the EZ Poker side bets I saw at Woo actually rank a Wheel (paired with a natural A/Q) as higher in status and envy payoffs (the main pay is the same). Ditto at the 5-card level. And why is it called "The Wheel" anyway? Is there a Pai Gow Tiles equivalent? I'm slowly working my way up to that game and have only scratched its surface, but I don't recall a "wheel" pairing. Why not call it a "Wong" or a "Gong" or a "Gwong"?

Forgive me if I seem obsessed with minutiae. I'm a hobbyist gamer who enjoys board games, card games, RPGs, VGs; you name it. (If you've ever heard of Reiner Knizia, Richard Garfield, Gary Gygax or Sid Myers you know the drill.) So in the category of casino games I'm merely a general practitioner as opposed to you specialists. (Casino games are certainly a unique category due to the associated glitz, glamour and MONEY!) I have, however, done some amateur game design (not casino games but a few friends did once build a craps table where you rolled 8-sided dice) and acted as a play tester for professional releases, so I'm used to making sure a game has all its T's crossed, its I's dotted, and some (hopefully) airtight rules. I've just never come across a caveat like "The Wheel" which seems to fly straight into the face of established (in this case) poker dogma.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Yes. In EZ PaiGow, Dan Lubin (the inventor, and a greatly missed member here -RIP) called the Steel Wheel the Lubin wheel and put it on the bonus paytable. Think it was 100-1? Should be listed on the Woo site under that game.

Last place I played EZ PGP, they had changed the name to something sort of Chinese, but I don't remember the word. Not sure why that happened. But it still pays.

Babs, I'm very sorry to hear about Dan Lubin. My condolences to you and his friends here. One of the pleasant surprises about finding this board is that several pro designers (such as yourself) are frequent posters. I saw elsewhere that he was one of them and had hoped to meet him on a thread since I'm moving into his area of expertise. Sadly, I'll never have that pleasure.

I have another question for you PGP players this time concerning the joker...

If you use the joker to make a flush, would it be considered an ace so that your joker-high flush would beat an opponent's king-high flush? If so, and your flush already contained an ace, would you then have a two ace-high flush and thus beat an opponant's ace-high flush?

Since a five ace hand is possible, I'm guessing the answer is yes but it's a quirky game and I could use some confirmation.

Quote: Gialmere

I have another question for you PGP players this time concerning the joker...

If you use the joker to make a flush, would it be considered an ace so that your joker-high flush would beat an opponent's king-high flush?

Yes, the joker is an ace if you use it to complete a flush. If the flush already has an ace, then it’s a king. If it already has an ace and a king, the joker is a queen. Etc, etc.

Quote: Gialmere

Ah, I see. So your mileage may vary from state to state and casino to casino but in general: An unsuited Wheel is the second highest ranked straight and a suited Wheel is the highest ranked straight flush with a Royal Flush above it in its own separate category. Oddly the EZ Poker side bets I saw at Woo actually rank a Wheel (paired with a natural A/Q) as higher in status and envy payoffs (the main pay is the same). Ditto at the 5-card level. And why is it called "The Wheel" anyway? Is there a Pai Gow Tiles equivalent? I'm slowly working my way up to that game and have only scratched its surface, but I don't recall a "wheel" pairing. Why not call it a "Wong" or a "Gong" or a "Gwong"?

Forgive me if I seem obsessed with minutiae. I'm a hobbyist gamer who enjoys board games, card games, RPGs, VGs; you name it. (If you've ever heard of Reiner Knizia, Richard Garfield, Gary Gygax or Sid Myers you know the drill.) So in the category of casino games I'm merely a general practitioner as opposed to you specialists. (Casino games are certainly a unique category due to the associated glitz, glamour and MONEY!) I have, however, done some amateur game design (not casino games but a few friends did once build a craps table where you rolled 8-sided dice) and acted as a play tester for professional releases, so I'm used to making sure a game has all its T's crossed, its I's dotted, and some (hopefully) airtight rules. I've just never come across a caveat like "The Wheel" which seems to fly straight into the face of established (in this case) poker dogma.


Babs, I'm very sorry to hear about Dan Lubin. My condolences to you and his friends here. One of the pleasant surprises about finding this board is that several pro designers (such as yourself) are frequent posters. I saw elsewhere that he was one of them and had hoped to meet him on a thread since I'm moving into his area of expertise. Sadly, I'll never have that pleasure.

Thank you, but you should not confuse me and my single game sold so far, with successful game designers, of which there are several here. I have a new game in development (which it may never leave) and a couple rough math for sidebets in progress.

You just happened to ask about 1 card draw poker, which is the heart of OFTM. So I directed you to it. I haven't been to space, either. (TBBT joke - US show, not sure you would get the reference. )

As to calling it a wheel, i have no better answer than to say it's poker slang that goea back decades or longer. In case you hadn't heard, AKQJT is called Broadway. Three of a kind is usually called a set, not trips, and quads are sometimes called a case, especially when looking for the 4th card. ("His only out is the case 9")

As to joker rank, in nearly all casinos, the Joker is the highest missing card in rank that fills a flush. But we have had people say they had played places where it was treated as a second suited Ace, so that's not universal. There are also a few houses that play A-5 as the lowest straight, perhaps to lessen dealer errors between games, or player confusion. I know I've played at least one place that had it that way, but I don't recall where.

You're too modest babs.

Quote:

The story of the quick rise of OM, from development, through licensing by SHFL (Shuffle Master), to success on the casino floor, is necessary reading if you have even a passing interest in creating and marketing your own casino table game...

...The game of OM is simple to learn and fast to play. It is also strategically interesting and volatile. The player has the possibility of two strategic decisions per hand and the possibility of winning or losing from 1 to 3 units in a hand. Given this combination of attributes, its rare success story is not a total surprise.

-Eliot Jacobson Ph.D.

"One for the Money" will never eclipse "Three Card Poker" at the top of the novelty game pyramid, but it IS a good game that IS played in casinos and that DOES make YOU a PROFESSIONAL game designer. I'm looking forward to your next release.

Quote: Gialmere

I have another question for you PGP players this time concerning the joker...

If you use the joker to make a flush, would it be considered an ace so that your joker-high flush would beat an opponent's king-high flush? If so, and your flush already contained an ace, would you then have a two ace-high flush and thus beat an opponant's ace-high flush?

Quote: ams288

Yes, the joker is an ace if you use it to complete a flush. If the flush already has an ace, then it’s a king. If it already has an ace and a king, the joker is a queen. Etc, etc.

Another clarification if possible...

What about cards in a banker's hand that form a flush in the same suit as your own?

For example, you have a K, 10, 6 and 4 in hearts along with the joker acting as the A. The banker has an A, Q, 9, 8 and 2 in hearts. Who wins? Does your king break the tie? Or is your joker downgraded to a jack since the true ace of hearts is already involved in the flush vs flush showdown?

Quote: Gialmere

Another clarification if possible...

What about cards in a banker's hand that form a flush in the same suit as your own? By

For example, you have a K, 10, 6 and 4 in hearts along with the joker acting as the A. The banker has an A, Q, 9, 8 and 2 in hearts. Who wins? Does your king break the tie? Or is your joker downgraded to a jack since the true ace of hearts is already involved in the flush vs flush showdown?

Your joker is the ace, and your flush is higher because you have the king. It doesn't matter that the ace of hearts is in play.

Quote: FinsRule

Ok, let me try again. There is no guaranteed winning hand in pai gow poker, only in pai gow tiles - gee joon and a teen pair.

gee joon and day pair is just as good.

Quote: Wizard

The wheel being the second highest straight/straight flush in pai gow poker I think is perhaps the stupidest rule in all of casino gambling. Can anyone top it? A rule that adds senseless complexity to a game, is counter to standard rules, and has absolutely no upside to either player nor dealer.

One possibility: a 0/0 tie in PGT goes to the banker automatically, unlike all other ties that go to high tile. This may not qualify because the rule does have an upside to the banker, but if player and house take turns banking then the benefit is evenly distributed so no net benefit to either. Just a weird caveat to the usual tie breaking rules.