Zer0
Zer0
Joined: Jan 30, 2014
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May 17th, 2016 at 12:49:40 AM permalink
Okay so I was about 5 spots out of the money, 10 BB left, soon to be 8 (40k chips, blinds 2k-4k, 500 antes, 3 minutes or so left at the level). I get 2-8 OS on my BB, 3 people limp, I check. Flop comes up K-7-8, with 2 diamonds on board, I figure "hmmmmm, I got a pair, maybe I can steal", so I bet 10k, 2 people fold, I go heads up. Turn comes up a 6, I think "if I shove maybe he'll think I have a straight". I push all in, and after seriously hesitating he calls with K-10 and busts me. My question is, was that a good time to aggresively bluff or should I have just let it go and waited for something I could shove preflop?
Romes
Romes
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May 17th, 2016 at 6:52:32 AM permalink
Aggression is usually a better mistake than being passive, but you have to pick and choose your spots. You didn't exactly play your hand super aggressive in my opinion. A check raise is much more information about the others hands and it's a much more powerful move. The other guy calling you down could have put you on King-Rag since you're in the blind, because after all if you had A-K, K-Q, K-J, you would have probably raised pre-flop, especially after 3 limpers.

Also, when you're representing on the flop, then you try to represent the straight on the turn, what is that saying... That you led out in front of the others with a straight draw on the flop? Again, I'd expect someone on the short stack to check raise with 10-9 here as a semi-bluff in order to pick the pot up but have "outs" if they happen to get called. The fact that you bet the flop with your chip stack would lead me to believe you had a weak king or an 8.

This isn't the best situation to "steal" in my opinion. You can't just decide when the flop comes K-7-8 "okay I'm gonna steal the pot" because you have no information yet. You don't know the strength of the other players hands at all really. Another reason why I'd favor checking here, and possibly check raising all in if you're going to try to steal. After all, if everyone checks the flop your 8 is probably best here on the turn anyways.

5 out of the money, for your tournament life, I would just personally choose a better spot to get my money in. If you're going to be aggressive, leave yourself some outs with an open ender or flush draw. You also had the option of a lot of hands after your blinds to attempt to just shove and steal the blinds, especially because most people tighten up when the blinds get big and you're around the money.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
MrGoldenSun
MrGoldenSun
Joined: Apr 1, 2016
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May 17th, 2016 at 7:26:23 AM permalink
How big was the average stack? How big were the limpers' stacks? Were they likely to call a shove? It might have been reasonable to just move in preflop.

I'd have probably check-folded the flop though, and bet the turn if the flop checked through. I don't see anything that calls the flop folding the turn but the pot is so big compared to your stack that once you bet the flop and get called, you're kind of doomed no matter what you do.

Also, when you bet the flop, you say you "had a pair" but also "could steal." I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. I think you are in a tricky spot on the flop.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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May 17th, 2016 at 7:59:33 AM permalink
Quote: MrGoldenSun

How big was the average stack? How big were the limpers' stacks? Were they likely to call a shove? It might have been reasonable to just move in preflop.

I'd have probably check-folded the flop though, and bet the turn if the flop checked through. I don't see anything that calls the flop folding the turn but the pot is so big compared to your stack that once you bet the flop and get called, you're kind of doomed no matter what you do.

Also, when you bet the flop, you say you "had a pair" but also "could steal." I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. I think you are in a tricky spot on the flop.

I think I like what you write, no disturbance in the grand scheme of things. You got a twin brother you could sign up? The more the merrier.

Well, except Islandman writes a bit like Kentry,,who was someone else before/after, maybe/or not...
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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May 17th, 2016 at 9:00:10 AM permalink
Quote: Zer0

Okay so I was about 5 spots out of the money, 10 BB left, soon to be 8 (40k chips, blinds 2k-4k, 500 antes, 3 minutes or so left at the level). I get 2-8 OS on my BB, 3 people limp, I check. Flop comes up K-7-8, with 2 diamonds on board, I figure "hmmmmm, I got a pair, maybe I can steal", so I bet 10k, 2 people fold, I go heads up. Turn comes up a 6, I think "if I shove maybe he'll think I have a straight". I push all in, and after seriously hesitating he calls with K-10 and busts me. My question is, was that a good time to aggresively bluff or should I have just let it go and waited for something I could shove preflop?



I like the move, but probably would have shoved when it was checked to me after the flop instead of betting 10k. How big was the stack of the guy who called?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Romes
Romes
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May 17th, 2016 at 9:46:09 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I like the move, but probably would have shoved when it was checked to me after the flop instead of betting 10k. How big was the stack of the guy who called?

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Zer0
Zer0
Joined: Jan 30, 2014
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May 17th, 2016 at 9:46:33 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I like the move, but probably would have shoved when it was checked to me after the flop instead of betting 10k. How big was the stack of the guy who called?



About double my stack, my stack was still in the range that could have scared people.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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May 17th, 2016 at 10:52:26 AM permalink
Middle pair, no kicker on the flop OOP 4-way is not very strong. I probably check-fold unless you're playing some big nits that can fold top pair, and looks like you weren't. :(
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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May 17th, 2016 at 11:12:42 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.



I still like it, but for the whole stack, not 10k. Shoving here makes it appear that you hit your King or made two pair. Keep in mind that the other players are also trying to make the money, and that they would have to risk 40k with their King/rag, or flush draw. I would have expected a pre-flop raise from a pair or A/K, so the hands I would have worried about would be two pair, or a pair with an Ace high flush draw. If your are the short stack, and it's all going in no matter what the other players do, why not commit it all when it gives you the best chance of pushing everyone else out?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Zer0
Zer0
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May 17th, 2016 at 11:59:00 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Quote: Romes

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.



I still like it, but for the whole stack, not 10k. Shoving here makes it appear that you hit your King or made two pair. Keep in mind that the other players are also trying to make the money, and that they would have to risk 40k with their King/rag, or flush draw. I would have expected a pre-flop raise from a pair or A/K, so the hands I would have worried about would be two pair, or a pair with an Ace high flush draw. If your are the short stack, and it's all going in no matter what the other players do, why not commit it all when it gives you the best chance of pushing everyone else out?



This is what I should have done. The reason I made this bet though is because I figured unless somebody has a strong king they'd fold, then when that 6 came up I shoved because my reasoning was that it could have easily be interpreted that I was open ended on the flop and I caught it on the turn. I didn't check because I thought if I checked and somebody had like A-8 or a king/rag then they would bet it but if I bet first they might toss it thinking I had them beat. K-10 was one of the worst things they could have though because they weren't going to raise me on the flop and then on the turn they had top pair + gutshot. Is this sound reasoning? I'm going to try again thursday so I'll take all the advice I can

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