Good try or stupid move?

Okay so I was about 5 spots out of the money, 10 BB left, soon to be 8 (40k chips, blinds 2k-4k, 500 antes, 3 minutes or so left at the level). I get 2-8 OS on my BB, 3 people limp, I check. Flop comes up K-7-8, with 2 diamonds on board, I figure "hmmmmm, I got a pair, maybe I can steal", so I bet 10k, 2 people fold, I go heads up. Turn comes up a 6, I think "if I shove maybe he'll think I have a straight". I push all in, and after seriously hesitating he calls with K-10 and busts me. My question is, was that a good time to aggresively bluff or should I have just let it go and waited for something I could shove preflop?

Aggression is usually a better mistake than being passive, but you have to pick and choose your spots. You didn't exactly play your hand super aggressive in my opinion. A check raise is much more information about the others hands and it's a much more powerful move. The other guy calling you down could have put you on King-Rag since you're in the blind, because after all if you had A-K, K-Q, K-J, you would have probably raised pre-flop, especially after 3 limpers.

Also, when you're representing on the flop, then you try to represent the straight on the turn, what is that saying... That you led out in front of the others with a straight draw on the flop? Again, I'd expect someone on the short stack to check raise with 10-9 here as a semi-bluff in order to pick the pot up but have "outs" if they happen to get called. The fact that you bet the flop with your chip stack would lead me to believe you had a weak king or an 8.

This isn't the best situation to "steal" in my opinion. You can't just decide when the flop comes K-7-8 "okay I'm gonna steal the pot" because you have no information yet. You don't know the strength of the other players hands at all really. Another reason why I'd favor checking here, and possibly check raising all in if you're going to try to steal. After all, if everyone checks the flop your 8 is probably best here on the turn anyways.

5 out of the money, for your tournament life, I would just personally choose a better spot to get my money in. If you're going to be aggressive, leave yourself some outs with an open ender or flush draw. You also had the option of a lot of hands after your blinds to attempt to just shove and steal the blinds, especially because most people tighten up when the blinds get big and you're around the money.

How big was the average stack? How big were the limpers' stacks? Were they likely to call a shove? It might have been reasonable to just move in preflop.

I'd have probably check-folded the flop though, and bet the turn if the flop checked through. I don't see anything that calls the flop folding the turn but the pot is so big compared to your stack that once you bet the flop and get called, you're kind of doomed no matter what you do.

Also, when you bet the flop, you say you "had a pair" but also "could steal." I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. I think you are in a tricky spot on the flop.

Quote: MrGoldenSun

How big was the average stack? How big were the limpers' stacks? Were they likely to call a shove? It might have been reasonable to just move in preflop.

I'd have probably check-folded the flop though, and bet the turn if the flop checked through. I don't see anything that calls the flop folding the turn but the pot is so big compared to your stack that once you bet the flop and get called, you're kind of doomed no matter what you do.

Also, when you bet the flop, you say you "had a pair" but also "could steal." I'm not quite sure what your goal is here. I think you are in a tricky spot on the flop.

I think I like what you write, no disturbance in the grand scheme of things. You got a twin brother you could sign up? The more the merrier.

Well, except Islandman writes a bit like Kentry,,who was someone else before/after, maybe/or not...

Quote: Zer0

Okay so I was about 5 spots out of the money, 10 BB left, soon to be 8 (40k chips, blinds 2k-4k, 500 antes, 3 minutes or so left at the level). I get 2-8 OS on my BB, 3 people limp, I check. Flop comes up K-7-8, with 2 diamonds on board, I figure "hmmmmm, I got a pair, maybe I can steal", so I bet 10k, 2 people fold, I go heads up. Turn comes up a 6, I think "if I shove maybe he'll think I have a straight". I push all in, and after seriously hesitating he calls with K-10 and busts me. My question is, was that a good time to aggresively bluff or should I have just let it go and waited for something I could shove preflop?

I like the move, but probably would have shoved when it was checked to me after the flop instead of betting 10k. How big was the stack of the guy who called?

Quote: Ayecarumba

I like the move, but probably would have shoved when it was checked to me after the flop instead of betting 10k. How big was the stack of the guy who called?

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I like the move, but probably would have shoved when it was checked to me after the flop instead of betting 10k. How big was the stack of the guy who called?

About double my stack, my stack was still in the range that could have scared people.

Middle pair, no kicker on the flop OOP 4-way is not very strong. I probably check-fold unless you're playing some big nits that can fold top pair, and looks like you weren't. :(

Quote: Romes

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.

I still like it, but for the whole stack, not 10k. Shoving here makes it appear that you hit your King or made two pair. Keep in mind that the other players are also trying to make the money, and that they would have to risk 40k with their King/rag, or flush draw. I would have expected a pre-flop raise from a pair or A/K, so the hands I would have worried about would be two pair, or a pair with an Ace high flush draw. If your are the short stack, and it's all going in no matter what the other players do, why not commit it all when it gives you the best chance of pushing everyone else out?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Quote: Romes

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.

I still like it, but for the whole stack, not 10k. Shoving here makes it appear that you hit your King or made two pair. Keep in mind that the other players are also trying to make the money, and that they would have to risk 40k with their King/rag, or flush draw. I would have expected a pre-flop raise from a pair or A/K, so the hands I would have worried about would be two pair, or a pair with an Ace high flush draw. If your are the short stack, and it's all going in no matter what the other players do, why not commit it all when it gives you the best chance of pushing everyone else out?

This is what I should have done. The reason I made this bet though is because I figured unless somebody has a strong king they'd fold, then when that 6 came up I shoved because my reasoning was that it could have easily be interpreted that I was open ended on the flop and I caught it on the turn. I didn't check because I thought if I checked and somebody had like A-8 or a king/rag then they would bet it but if I bet first they might toss it thinking I had them beat. K-10 was one of the worst things they could have though because they weren't going to raise me on the flop and then on the turn they had top pair + gutshot. Is this sound reasoning? I'm going to try again thursday so I'll take all the advice I can

Quote: Ayecarumba

Quote: Romes

He was in the BB, so it would appear as though he led out for $10k in to the other hands that called with presumably decent hands. I don't like this lead out bet at all. You make a weak bet with a weak hand and no information.

I still like it, but for the whole stack, not 10k. Shoving here makes it appear that you hit your King...

While that would be better than leading out for $10k, that's still a disastrous move because you're only going to get called by hands that are crushing you... Don't forget the golden rule in poker: "Always leave yourself outs."

And you just made my other point. If I'm sitting with K-10, and I put you on "hitting your king" then I'm calling. You would have raised 4 handed with A-K, K-Q, or K-J on the short stack after people limp to build a pot you could steal pre-flop with a decent hand. K-10 should be good over any other king than a random 2 pair, which why on earth wouldn't you check raise your 2 pair here?

Who's limping here with K-rag preflop 5 out of they money that you're planning to 'push off' their hand???

Quote: Ayecarumba

...If your are the short stack, and it's all going in no matter what the other players do, why not commit it all when it gives you the best chance of pushing everyone else out?

THIS I agree with, however you could also check raise it to gather MORE info. What happens if guy to your left bets $8k, then guy behind him shoves... Well you just saved yourself from running in to the real hand... It's called getting more information to make a better decision given the OP was very weak at this point.

Quote: Zer0

This is what I should have done. The reason I made this bet though is because I figured unless somebody has a strong king they'd fold, then when that 6 came up I shoved because my reasoning was that it could have easily be interpreted that I was open ended on the flop and I caught it on the turn. I didn't check because I thought if I checked and somebody had like A-8 or a king/rag then they would bet it but if I bet first they might toss it thinking I had them beat. K-10 was one of the worst things they could have though because they weren't going to raise me on the flop and then on the turn they had top pair + gutshot. Is this sound reasoning? I'm going to try again thursday so I'll take all the advice I can

Again, who's limping on $2k-$4k blinds 5 people out of the money with something like K-6??? Very few people, that's who... Even the guy with K-10 should have opted for a raise in this situation, in my opinion.

Your bast scenario here is that someone else bets WEAK then you check raise shove all in. As you said your stack can still hurt someone and if they're betting weak (which perhaps their bet amount or how they bet would tell you this - if you check and get more information) and you apply the pressure they have limited options but to fold unless they're sure you're straight bluffing for your tournament life. A check raise, and a check raise all in especially, is a powerful move, so a mediocre hand more than likely would have to submit to it for that amount of chips.

Quote: Romes

Again, who's limping on $2k-$4k blinds 5 people out of the money with something like K-6??? Very few people, that's who... Even the guy with K-10 should have opted for a raise in this situation, in my opinion.

Your bast scenario here is that someone else bets WEAK then you check raise shove all in. As you said your stack can still hurt someone and if they're betting weak (which perhaps their bet amount or how they bet would tell you this - if you check and get more information) and you apply the pressure they have limited options but to fold unless they're sure you're straight bluffing for your tournament life. A check raise, and a check raise all in especially, is a powerful move, so a mediocre hand more than likely would have to submit to it for that amount of chips.

Checking to raise only invites action from the hands in position, regardless of their holdings. It takes the pressure off the K/T to just give it up. What would you do if the K/T bet 8k after you checked the turn? While Romes' analysis is sound, keeping the pressure on the other player is, in my opinion, still a viable strategy.

If you were to wait for a shoving hand while the antes and blinds ate away at your stack (just to call would be 10% of your stack, with the blinds going up in a few minutes), pretty soon your shove wouldn't be strong enough to chase any borderline hands out, and you would end up just hoping to suck out.

Maybe the important information is, what hands did you put the other player on when he called the 10k? Was he loose, or did you see him fold to pressure previously?

I pretty much knew he had a king of some kind come the turn, I was just hoping he would think I caught a straight, especially considering I tend to raise on open ended flops. Considering I had BB and nobody raised me, I was hoping they'd put me on 9-10.

You really thought they put you on 9,10 ? Just because you tend to raise on open-ended flops, does not mean you opponent thought that. As usual with most poker questions, too much info is missing. Your table image, image of other players/ How many still in tournament, prize structure, how bad you need to cash, or always playing for 1st money.
What did you think he called with ? What was his intent, to cash or win 1st ? What were other players trying to do? I see these questions all the time. No right answer or wrong answer. Only YOU know the real answer.

Quote: Zer0

I pretty much knew he had a king of some kind come the turn, I was just hoping he would think I caught a straight, especially considering I tend to raise on open ended flops. Considering I had BB and nobody raised me, I was hoping they'd put me on 9-10.

To just be very honest, this sounds like a very poor line of thinking. You bet the flop. Your actions speak for your hand. What you're mainly saying is "I have something." When you're 5 out of the money and you're on a short stack generally that means you actually hit rather than semi-bluffing some kind of straight draw. Again, to me what you said is "I'm in the BB with K-2 and I hit the flop so I have to try to bet." I'd call you down all day with K-10 there from your BB and I don't even know the other info such as your table image, etc, etc. That's just ABC poker.

If you want him to think you hit the straight. Wait until the straight lands, then shove. Then he'll be like "How did that last card help him??? Well, it did complete a straight... What if he has that??"

Check-shoving the flop (if you're determined to bet/win the pot) is 1,000 times better in my opinion. There's talk of "keeping the pressure on" but you weren't ever pressuring them previously. You were in the BB and checked. You have no commitment to the pot and don't have to stuff your chips in (again why I think you shouldn't just "randomly" decide to try to steal the pot). You should gather information and when you find the table or person betting is weak that's the time to "steal the pot." Had you check-shoved here he would have had little idea what you had. He could have thought your BB hand got some random 2 pair and he'd be making a call for a significant amount of chips on top pair with an "okay" kicker... a tough call.

I was playing online
On the flop 9 9 Q with 2 hearts
A moderate bet by another player
I am chasing a flush so I call
Don't hit it, another moderate bet by the other player
Boom, I hit my flush, other player bets, I go all in
He calls, I'm thinking F**k, he has the full boat
He shows a pair 22
Wow, the slightly higher hand then playing the board
How does he call my all in with that.
Hey I won so I am happy.
I am just amazed he called my all in with just a slightly better hand then the board.

Trying to make someone fold top pair for a less-than-pot bet in a relatively small pot is not a good idea. After you get called on the flop, it's a hopeless bluff.