Baccarat-When should the dealer reveal the third card?

On drawing a third card to the Player or Banker where none of the players will handle this third card, should it be revealed as it comes out of the shoe and then placed into its proper position, or should it be positioned first face down and then turned over? Although I'm curious about player preferences, I also want to know what the correct procedure is.

Punto Banco, no one betting on Player:

I have never heard such a question about whether a fifth card being drawn in Baccarat must be opened right away or set down and then opened. Why would that matter?

If the fifth Player card must be revealed because there is no mandatory two card (one to each side) draw, it will be revealed.

If there is a mandatory two card draw, the Player card may remain face down until the player on Bank asks for it to be opened. If it is retained face down, then it will be placed face down next to the other two Player cards for the simple reason of so that the dealer doesn't lose track of what is supposed to be done with that card.

If the player is big enough, wishes to do so and has arranged this with the casino, in midi or grand Bacc he may handle (and hence view) both Player and Bank cards, regardless of which side he is betting.

Quote: MDawg

Punto Banco, no one betting on Player:

I have never heard such a question about whether a fifth card being drawn in Baccarat must be opened right away or set down and then opened. Why would that matter?

Because if they screw up the correct procedure you can call a misdeal if your bet loses. There are several hundred rules which are of no real consequence but are technically violations of baccarat protocol. Catch enough to save one bet per hour and you have the edge over the casino.

In this sort of situation, there would be a misdeal only if the dealer handed a card or the cards to the wrong side.

And even then, maybe not - the hand outcome depends on what the computerized shoe confirms.

At that point if the official shoe confirmation and the revealed cards differ, it would be up to the pit to decide whether to invalidate the hand. Obviously the player would ask for invalidation only if the official confirmation made him out to lose.


I am aware that if the dealer forgets to push the button to update the video scoreboard and the hand is played out anyway, the player may raise a stink if he loses and try to invalidate the hand. But invalidation under those circumstances isn't a given, and nowadays the computerized shoes don't allow the dealer to draw a card for the next hand until after pressing the button to update the video scoreboard. I think this is not so much to ensure that the video scoreboard is updated, but to ensure that the hand results are confirmed by the computerized shoe.

Quote: MDawg

If the player is big enough, wishes to do so and has arranged this with the casino, in midi or grand Bacc he may handle (and hence view) both Player and Bank cards, regardless of which side he is betting.
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That means that the casino is concerned only with hand outcome, otherwise they wouldn't allow a player to handle both sides.

I've also seen some big players hold the Player's fifth card where it is not a mandatory sixth card draw, and refuse to show it to the pit, asking the pit to just trust them that there is a draw coming. Nowadays with the latest computerized shoes the machine won't even allow the dealer to pull a card unless one is warranted (allowed), so that pretty much solves that dilemma, but before that sort of automation was present you'd sometimes see the dealer and the pit boss argue over whether the player had to disclose that fifth card.

One way this sort of automation comes up, is Player has say, a 0 or a 1, and the Bank say a 4 or 5, and the dealer screws up and draws two cards at once (one after the other), one for Player one for Bank, forgetting that if the Player draws certain cards there may be no further draw. But nowadays that is no longer a problem because the computerized shoes won't allow that sixth card to be drawn unless the fifth card allows another draw per the Punto Banco rules. So all that happens in that situation is that Banker knows that he didn't automatically win - or lose.

If OP could explain why any of what he is asking matters, I could try to address it, but the thought Graham had is wrongly placed as far as what OP posted.

Quote: MDawg

In this sort of situation, there would be a misdeal only if the dealer handed a card or the cards to the wrong side.

And even then, maybe not - the hand outcome depends on what the computerized shoe confirms.

At that point if the official shoe confirmation and the revealed cards differ, it would be up to the pit to decide whether to invalidate the hand. Obviously the player would ask for invalidation only if the official confirmation made him out to lose.

I am aware that if the dealer forgets to push the button to update the video scoreboard and the hand is played out anyway, the player may raise a stink if he loses and try to invalidate the hand. But invalidation under those circumstances isn't a given, and nowadays the computerized shoes don't allow the dealer to draw a card for the next hand until after pressing the button to update the video scoreboard.

Yes, it may not work. As you may lose hands in positive counts at blackjack.

Here's the thing, it doesn't have to work very often. That is advantage play. Don't ask, don't git.

Quote:

I could try to address it, but the thought Graham had is wrongly placed as far as what OP posted.

I was responding to your question not directly to the OP.

You have to play Baccarat to understand what will and what will not fly here Graham. I can tell you with authority that your thought is groundless in any Vegas casino. As well, besides the fact that I know you're wrong, if anything close to what you opine could make a difference, by now I would have seen it happen.

What I have seen, are situations where a player gets annoyed because the dealer opens the other side's card(s) before he wants it/them opened. Makes not a whit of difference, hand results are not getting invalidated. Some players want "just one" card opened on the other side, and rarely, a dealer will open both by mistake, or not open the exact card the player wants open, if he has specified. Doesn't matter, the hand is going to move forward.

So, if the dealers are taught to open right away or not open right away a drawn card, or put it here or put it there, if they fail to follow it's not going to invalidate the hand, unless it's done as some kind of courtesy for a known player, and I will say that I have never seen any player bother to ask to invalidate the hand for something like that probably because they know it'll just make them appear like some kind of scammer trying to get out of a losing hand.

In Europe, Chemin de Fer, the Player has the option to stand on 5 or draw. So neither side shows his cards unless one has a Natural, and then the Bank just has to trust that the Player side really is holding a hand that doesn't need to be disclosed, as Banker decides whether or not to hit a hand that is below 6.

So, imagine what happens if the hand outcome is revealed and it turns out Player made a mistake and didn't draw a card when he had to draw (or drew, when he did not have the right to draw).

Here's how the sequence works in the commonly described traditional form of Chemin de Fer:

1.Two cards are dealt face down to Player and Banker.
2. Both sides examine their two cards. If either has a natural 8 or 9, it is announced immediately, both hands are exposed, and the coup ends.
3. Otherwise, Player announces whether to draw (carte) or stand (pas de carte), without revealing the original two cards. Player must draw on 0–4, may draw or stand on 5, and must stand on 6–7.
4. If Player requests a third card, it is dealt face up. Player's original two cards remain concealed.
5. In some casinos, the Banker's drawing rules are fixed. In other versions, Banker has some discretion. Where discretion is permitted, Banker decides whether to draw or stand, knowing Player's action and any exposed third card, but not Player's original two cards.
In versions with fixed Banker drawing rules, Banker must follow the prescribed table. In classical Chemin de Fer, Banker has broader discretion to draw or stand, even on a total of 6 after Player stands, without knowing Player's original two-card total.
6. Both hands are exposed and compared. The hand closest to 9 wins, and equal totals tie.

With those kinds of options available, and cards being potentially hidden until the conclusion of the hand, I could see situations where hands are invalidated coming up. But in Punto Banco where everything is fixed, errors happen rarely, and ceremony having nothing to do with the hand outcome doesn't get to invalidate results. Perhaps it is going to be someone who doesn't even know what the ceremony is, who will think that it might matter.

Quote: MDawg

You have to play Baccarat to understand what will and what will not fly here Graham. I can tell you with authority that your thought is groundless in any Vegas casino. As well, besides the fact that I know you're wrong, if anything close to what you opine could make a difference, by now I would have seen it happen.

The point was a very simple one: a familiarity with the casinos procedures allows you to contest any error in those procedures to your advantage. It is not something any one should be contesting for any reason: it is a statement of the obvious. Know the game you are playing.

Since you seem to be posturing as some kind of authority:" In Europe, Chemin de Fer, the Player has the option to stand on 5 or draw." Chimmy has been essentially dead in "Europe", whatever you think that is, for some years, it is only spread in France, Italy and Monaco. Less than ten casinos offer it last time I checked. Where "discretion" is permitted to the banker it just means they follow the optimized game-theoretic strategy which has been known for many decades. God knows why you are talking about it here on a Vegas forum where no non-americans contribute.

Quote: Liwet

On drawing a third card to the Player or Banker where none of the players will handle this third card, should it be revealed as it comes out of the shoe and then placed into its proper position, or should it be positioned first face down and then turned over? Although I'm curious about player preferences, I also want to know what the correct procedure is.
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To actually answer your question there are three basic rules:

Reveal on draw: the croupier turns the card face up as it leaves the shoe, then places it, often sideways. This is the usual procedure in croupier-dealt punto banco, midi and chemin de fer. Mini- and midi-baccarat dealt by the croupier in the US (Nevada, New Jersey), the UK and continental Europe, as well as Argentina. . Chemin de fer in France and Italy, where a requested third card is served face up.

Place, then turn: the card goes face down into position and is turned over there. It is less common, but it commits the card to a hand before anyone sees it. You don't see this one much and I can't even remember where I last encountered it.

Squeeze: the card goes face down to the highest bettor on that hand, who reveals it slowly. If no one bet that side, the croupier turns it. This is the Macau or big-table style. Macau, Singapore and other Asian VIP and premium-mass rooms. Big-table and high-limit punto banco in Las Vegas and Australia, where players handle the cards. Traditional big-table punto y banca in Spain and Latin America, where the croupier keeps the cards if nobody has bet that side.

This is from memory so I might be hazy on a few things, but it is broadly correct at least.

Quote: GrahamThorp

This is from memory so I might be hazy on a few things, but it is broadly correct at least.
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Quote: MDawg

You have to play Baccarat to understand what will and what will not fly here Graham.
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I don't know if they still play it, or ever played it, but they went to the trouble of publishing the rules in Massachusetts.
https://massgaming.com/wp-content/uploads/RULES-Baccarat-Chemin-de-Fer-2-1-18.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com
Within the rules are "Irregularities" which outline situations where hands may be annulled. Perhaps there are such rules in Nevada for Punto Banco Baccarat?

In Monaco, too, last I was there, although someone has to be willing to bank the Bank. I believe there are casinos in Italy that actually even advertise Chemin de Fer too.

Quote: MDawg

In Europe, Chemin de Fer, the Player has the option to stand on 5 or draw. So neither side shows his cards unless one has a Natural, and then the Bank just has to trust that the Player side really is holding a hand that doesn't need to be disclosed, as Banker decides whether or not to hit a hand that is below 6.

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1.Two cards are dealt face down to Player and Banker.
2. Both sides examine their two cards. If either has a natural 8 or 9, it is announced immediately, both hands are exposed, and the coup ends.
3. Otherwise, Player announces whether to draw (carte) or stand (pas de carte), without revealing the original two cards. Player must draw on 0–4, may draw or stand on 5, and must stand on 6–7.
4. If Player requests a third card, it is dealt face up. Player's original two cards remain concealed.
5. In some casinos, the Banker's drawing rules are fixed. In other versions, Banker has some discretion. Where discretion is permitted, Banker decides whether to draw or stand, knowing Player's action and any exposed third card, but not Player's original two cards.
In versions with fixed Banker drawing rules, Banker must follow the prescribed table. In classical Chemin de Fer, Banker has broader discretion to draw or stand, even on a total of 6 after Player stands, without knowing Player's original two-card total.
6. Both hands are exposed and compared. The hand closest to 9 wins, and equal totals tie.
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Quote: GrahamThorp

Chemin de fer in France and Italy, where a requested third card is served face up.
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The reason it is served face up is because of the rules of Chemin de Fer. See #4.

Quote: Liwet

On drawing a third card to the Player or Banker where none of the players will handle this third card, should it be revealed as it comes out of the shoe and then placed into its proper position, or should it be positioned first face down and then turned over? Although I'm curious about player preferences, I also want to know what the correct procedure is.
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I don't think either way alters the outcome of the hand.
This would seem to be a matter of style, much like if a blackjack double-down card is delivered face-up or face-down.

I just read several flavours of baccarat game rules, and either style procedure would seem to be rule compliant.

What would be funny is if we're putting all this thought and energy into a random AI post.

I don't think so, but maybe....

We should differentiate "rules" from "ceremony." What the OP is talking about is ceremony, not the rules that determine how a Baccarat hand is played and decided. A variation in ceremony is not, in itself, grounds for invalidating a hand.

As far as Baccarat in Vegas is concerned, G.Thorp's recollections are imprecise.

Quote: GrahamThorp

there are three basic rules:
Reveal on draw: the croupier turns the card face up as it leaves the shoe, then places it, often sideways. This is the usual procedure in croupier-dealt punto banco, midi and chemin de fer. Mini- and midi-baccarat dealt by the croupier in the US (Nevada, New Jersey), the UK and continental Europe, as well as Argentina. . Chemin de fer in France and Italy, where a requested third card is served face up.
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For one thing, he's lumping mini and midi Baccarat together as if the dealing ceremonies are the same. Of course they aren't. In Mini Bacc, the players don't touch the cards, and the dealer exposes them immediately as they are drawn. Period.

In Midi Bacc, it's a different matter. Whether a card is exposed immediately depends partly on the drawing rules, partly on whether anyone is betting that side, and partly on player preference. If someone is playing that side, the cards are dealt face down for that player to squeeze. If no one is playing that side, the cards may remain face down until the player on the other side requests that they be opened, subject of course to any mandatory exposure necessary to determine whether another card must be drawn.

So his description of the supposed Vegas procedure, treating mini and midi as interchangeable, is wrong from the outset.

Quote: GrahamThorp

Place, then turn: the card goes face down into position and is turned over there. It is less common, but it commits the card to a hand before anyone sees it. You don't see this one much and I can't even remember where I last encountered it.
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I'm not sure what he's saying here, but if he's claiming that situations where a card is retained face down "in position" (next to that side's other two face up cards) and subsequently turned over from its position on the layout are rare, he definitely doesn't play much Baccarat.

This happens all the time in Midi Bacc when Player is required to draw a third card, no one is betting Player, and there is a mandatory two-card draw (six cards total). The dealer generally leaves that third Player card face down alongside Player's original two cards until Banker requests that it be exposed. There is no need to expose it immediately because Banker must draw a third card regardless of its value.

Some players don't care and ask for the third Player card to be exposed before they've even looked at their Banker cards, but that's not the usual practice.

The same applies in reverse when Banker is required to draw a third card and no one is betting Banker. The dealer may leave Banker's third card face down (in position) until the player betting Player requests that it be exposed, since the drawing requirements have already been determined and the card's value cannot affect whether another card must be drawn.

Quote: GrahamThorp

Squeeze: the card goes face down to the highest bettor on that hand, who reveals it slowly. If no one bet that side, the croupier turns it. This is the Macau or big-table style. Macau, Singapore and other Asian VIP and premium-mass rooms. Big-table and high-limit punto banco in Las Vegas and Australia, where players handle the cards. Traditional big-table punto y banca in Spain and Latin America, where the croupier keeps the cards if nobody has bet that side.
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Really no different from what was discussed above. The OP described a situation where no one was betting the other side.

Yes, of course, if someone is betting that side and opening the cards, that player receives the cards face down. In Baccarat, the player doing the squeezing always receives his cards face down. That's the whole point of squeezing.

But where no one is playing the other side, whether that side's third card is exposed immediately depends on the drawing requirements and, where there is room for it, player preference.

If a sixth card must be drawn regardless of the value of the fifth card, there is no need to expose that fifth card immediately to determine whether play continues. The player may prefer to leave it face down.

On the other hand, if the value of the fifth card determines whether a sixth card must be drawn, then it must be exposed before that decision can be made. Most dealers will simply turn it over right after drawn from the shoe.

More importantly, G.Thorp is confusing a variation in dealing ceremony with an actual misdeal. If a third card is mandatory, and the correct card is dealt to the correct hand, what difference does it make whether the dealer exposes it before placing it on the layout or afterward? The same card comes out of the shoe, the same drawing rules apply, and the outcome is exactly the same.

Of course a player may complain about a perceived irregularity, particularly after losing a hand. That doesn't mean the casino is obligated to annul it.

If G.Thorp is claiming that merely exposing a mandatory third card earlier than usual, or otherwise departing from the customary procedure for placing and exposing it, is grounds for voiding a Baccarat hand in Vegas, let's see the applicable rule. Simply stating that a casino might void a hand over some dealing irregularity doesn't establish that these particular variations are among them. I am quite certain they are not, based in part on having seen players complain somewhat regularly about dealers turning over cards too soon, with nothing ever coming of it other than the dealer trying not to do it again.

This, from the Pope of Las Vegas.

Quote: MDawg

What would be funny is if we're putting all this thought and energy into a random AI post.

I'm not AI. Also wasn't able to upload an avatar for some reason and it was my first post, so I'm aware of the red flags I'm flying.

Anyways, I just wanted to make sure the procedure I was using is correct and what the preferred method by most players would be.

Assuming no one is betting Player side, and this is ceremony we're talking here, not rules:

If that third Player card may stop the action, then go ahead and turn it over. Doesn't matter how. Most dealers will just turn it over quickly right as it comes out of the shoe, and wince if it is a card that is unfavorable to the player on Bank.

Let me tell you why - Baccarat players are superstitious, and if you go through all the trouble to put it into place and then open it, they will feel like you are putting some energy into it. This is the same reason that blackjack dealers, when they turn over or achieve a stiff hand for themselves, like a 12 - 16, will turn over that next card fast, like Bam! trying to bust themselves. Watch videos of dealers dealing blackjack, especially high limit ones, and you will notice that. They won't turn that would-be bust card over slowly.

But if there is a mandatory two-card draw (six cards), leave the third Player card face down in position until the bettor on Bank asks you to open it.

As far as cards that are face down in place that you are opening (which means - cards on the opposing side) always open them slowly. Fast open for those face down cards implies aggression like you’re trying to put energy and strength into them.

Don’t ask me why that third card that is hitting the Player you open fast while the cards sitting in place you open slowly just the way Baccarat players like to see their dealers handle the opposing cards.

That is proper dealer etiquette that will rarely get you in trouble with a player.


They might still blame you if they lose but not for opening the cards “wrong.”