Getting greedy with blind stealing.

So I had 54k chips, BB was 800/1600, and I got the button, A-7 OS, and I thought "well hey great time to steal!" So I bump it up to 10k, and a dude goes all in bringing it up to 20k, he seemed like he was questioning his decision so I'm like "maybe he's got KQ and thinks I have K10 or something" so I called, turns out he had KK. Eventually I get down to 6 BB after about an hour, get A-5 diamonds /w BB, a guy in a mid position raised to 2BB, so I shove it in since I'm about dead anyway hoping he'll fold (which I would never have done if I had any decent amount of chips left) and he busts me with AA. What should I have done differently with my steal attempt? Should I have just gone double BB and if he raised anymore folded? Also if this were a bounty tournament with 1/3 buyin bounties on everybody, would that change your approach?

Quote: Zer0

What should I have done differently with my steal attempt?

It's not only you and the other guy. You have to play everyone against every one else. Perhaps, others were in a "more optimal" position to bluff/challenge the leaders. Eg, bluff-catching is best accomplished by only one of the remaining opponents, and given the number of remaining opponents.

one other guy limped in and it was SB that shoved, the BB and the guy that limped folded and I was trying to take advantage of the fact that I had a the button and more than double the chips of both the blinds.

Quote: Zer0

one other guy limped in and it was SB that shoved, the BB and the guy that limped folded and I was trying to take advantage of the fact that I had a the button and more than double the chips of both the blinds.

If you were somehow able to know that the all in had KK, or AK, would you have folded? You were getting 3-1 on the call for less than a quarter of your stack. The fact that you put him on a weaker hand means you read his actions incorrectly. The pause was probably him deciding if you had AA or not. In the end it sounds like he read you better, and won the race.
I don't think you did anything wrong, but if you get caught all the time, you may have a tell to work on.

You could be right about that, the thing was though is that I was at the first table the whole time and he moved over there at like the second break so he didn't really see me play that much and vice versa. Since it wasn't much of a matter of know what the other will do, I was just thinking in terms of "okay, sometimes people try to steal the blinds with like... Q-J suited, if he thinks I have something stupid like that, since I just threw out 6.25 BB's, it makes sense to try to turn the tables with a strong king, especially since he's got a blind to guard". Of course this guy would have gone all in with KK in the situation he was in either way, so I guess my question is, did I overextended my chips by betting 10,000 instead of 4000 or 5000 with an A-7OS? I would have probably just folded if he went all in and I threw out 5k, I just figured since I got 10k out there already and have a decent chance of winning I might as well call. What really sucks ass is that I did catch an ace but he popped a set.

Quote: Zer0

So I had 54k chips, BB was 800/1600, and I got the button, A-7 OS, and I thought "well hey great time to steal!" So I bump it up to 10k...

Why so much? 4,000-5,000 is plenty, and if you get reraised, you can get away.

Yah, your raise size on the steal was far to big. 4k would be fine. You should also try to think a step ahead. You should already have known what you were gonna do if you got shoved on, what their stack sizes were, etc . You're creating a terrible situation by raising a bluffy hand that big for half of another guy's stack, because you are going to be in trouble whenever he shoves

On your all in hand, I don't think the foe is folding very often preflop. Though it would not have worked in this instance, this could be a good spot for a stop and go. That is, just call the raise, then move in on almost any flop. You have enough chips to get folds a lot of the time. e.g. flop is 972 and he has KQ, AT, etc. He might even fold AK. Also, A5 D is going to get at least a little equity on many flops, so you'll often have outs if called.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Yah, your raise size on the steal was far to big. 4k would be fine. You should also try to think a step ahead. You should already have known what you were gonna do if you got shoved on, what their stack sizes were, etc . You're creating a terrible situation by raising a bluffy hand that big for half of another guy's stack, because you are going to be in trouble whenever he shoves

On your all in hand, I don't think the foe is folding very often preflop. Though it would not have worked in this instance, this could be a good spot for a stop and go. That is, just call the raise, then move in on almost any flop. You have enough chips to get folds a lot of the time. e.g. flop is 972 and he has KQ, AT, etc. He might even fold AK. Also, A5 D is going to get at least a little equity on many flops, so you'll often have outs if called.

Should have made this clear earlier but it was a different guy that got me when I had A-5 D, I was getting killed every time I had BB after the A-7 vs KK hand and at this point I was in "either shove it or fold it" mode. And yeah I should have thought the initial blow through a little better, I was trying to be overly aggressive against the shorter stacks and it blew up in my face lol
On a side note, I can't wait for the 13th, I'm finally off on a Sunday entering a double stack bounty tournament where everybody's name gets put in a drum and if you get drawn you get full buyin ($150) back if you get KOed and the person that KOed you gets the $150 too, I know you Vegas people are probably laughing at this but this is the best s$%^ we got here in STL as far as weekly events go!

Quote: Zer0

What should I have done differently with my steal attempt?

Raise smaller if you're going to raise. Be less inclined to steal at all based on the fact you already have a limper. That's relevant info you didn't put in your original post.

Food for thought...you can't be too results-oriented. Honestly, if everyone had folded, would you even have considered whether this was a bad play? Or even more, what if everything had been the same but you had won the hand? Literally nothing about the play would have been different except the order of the undealt cards, but I bet you wouldn't have posted this.

I am not trying to be harsh on you specifically--I just know that for essentially all players, me included, we think of ourselves as having made the "right" play based on the eventual outcome more than we should.

Quote: Zer0

Should I have just gone double BB and if he raised anymore folded?

Double would have been better than 6x. Though if you double, you almost certainly get called by the limper, but at least you'll have position. Honestly, for me this is probably just a fold preflop. It's so easy to be dominated and when you make it 10k you can't fold for 10k more.

Quote: Zer0

Also if this were a bounty tournament with 1/3 buyin bounties on everybody, would that change your approach?

Depends on how the other players play and what their stack sizes are. In general, yes, it would change my approach, but part of that would be that I assume other players are chasing bounties more than they should.

EDITED TO ADD: I agree a stop-and-go is worth considering here, particularly if you don't think the villains might be unfamiliar with the play.

(double posted--sorry)