Kickass
Kickass
Joined: Nov 12, 2013
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June 25th, 2014 at 12:46:31 PM permalink
In the live 2-3 NL TxHoldm game
Preflop: A loose player in the early position bet $15. Six callers and I am in the late position, second last to act. I was holding AQ offsuit

Flop: Q72 rainbow
All players before me check. I was getting my chips out and trying to bet $45. The player behind me signaled check before my action. The dealer did not ask or say anything like "Everyone check?" And she immediately wanted to get the turn card out. I tried to stop her and she exposed a portion of the card to seat 1. Then she flipped over the turn card completely, which is a Jack.

The floor came in and told me that since there were a lot of action in the preflop. The Jack must stay there and it is treated as I checked at the flop. I tried to explain to the floor that it was the dealer's mistake but it was useless.

After that, I bet $45 at the turn. One person thought about it and then called.
At the river, it was a 9 and no flush on board. Then that player bet $120 and I folded because I believed that player was holding K 10.

Anyways, I really don't understand why how much chips in the preflop to do with the floor's decision in correcting the last player's mistake checking before my action and the dealer's mistake. As I remember in the similar situation in other casinos, I should be able to bet at the flop and the Jack should be put back to the deck and reshuffled for the turn card. What do you guys think?
Leave Katie alone. Rasul: Or what? Or I come back and break your F** legs
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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June 25th, 2014 at 12:54:46 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Deucekies
Deucekies
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June 25th, 2014 at 1:29:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Must places let you complete the action on the flop, burn and turn the river next making that the turn card, complete action on that card then reshuffle the original turn card back in and then burn and turn the new river card.



This is the correct ruling. I've heard that you can get stuck with a check if you're in early position and an appreciable number of people act behind you (say three, for example), but I've never seen that actually come up. Either way, the preflop action has absolutely zero-zip-zilch-nada to do with anything. Bad floorman. No treat.

(Not that you asked or anything, but with $195 in the pot on a board of Q72J9 rainbow, there's no way I'm folding AQ for $120. You're most afraid of AA, KK, QJ, K10, but you can beat or chop any other ace, 1010, KJ, or air. For $120, I'd look him up. This really looks like a stab at the pot to me. I'd put him on AK or AJ. Maybe A7 or A2.)
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
MangoJ
MangoJ
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June 25th, 2014 at 2:10:08 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Most places let you complete the action on the flop, burn and turn the river next making that the turn card, complete action on that card then reshuffle the original turn card back in and then burn and turn the new river card.



Just out of curiosity, why would the exposed card not be considered as a candidate for the turn card ?
Deucekies
Deucekies
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June 25th, 2014 at 2:38:50 PM permalink
Quote: MangoJ

Just out of curiosity, why would the exposed card not be considered as a candidate for the turn card ?


The river card becomes the turn card, that way only one card is jeopardized. The exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Kickass
Kickass
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June 25th, 2014 at 2:46:58 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

For $120, I'd look him up. This really looks like a stab at the pot to me. I'd put him on AK or AJ. Maybe A7 or A2.)


There were two reasons why I folded. First that player is a tight player. I saw the same move from her about half an hour ago and she had the full house.
Second, the action at this table is kind of loose. People would call you down with any top pair with no kicker. Bluffing is a very bad move at this table.

I eliminated AA, KK and also QJ because she was in the early position and checked after the flop and no re-pop at the turn.

K10 makes perfect sense to me. I had $220 left and she had me covered. She thought about it and called my $45.
Leave Katie alone. Rasul: Or what? Or I come back and break your F** legs
MangoJ
MangoJ
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June 25th, 2014 at 3:14:26 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

The exposed jack is shuffled back in, and may very well show up on the river.



That's what I read from the procedure posted. But why isn't there a shuffle before the turn ? That way the jack could become the turn card as expected in a normal game. If the shuffle is only before the river, the turn is biased towards a non-jack.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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June 25th, 2014 at 3:16:21 PM permalink
The above description of using the river as the turn and reshuffling the exposed card is standard for Robert's Rules Of Poker.

However, most card rooms use the Tournament Directors Association rules for tourneys AND cash games, and no longer use Robert's Rules.
http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts/view-official-tda-rules/

Note the most important rule. Rule 1.
Quote: TDA Rule 1

Floor Decisions
Floorpeople must consider the best interest of the game and fairness as top priorities in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floorperson’s decision is final.

That's all well and good, except the 'technical rules' don't cover the situation of the turn (or river) being exposed prematurely.


Rule 35 confirms that the OP should have been allowed to make his flop bet. But there is nothing that says the card is returned and shuffled in. But the obvious question is, does the OP now make his flop bet knowing what the turn card will be? Seems wrong....
Quote: TDA Rule 35

Substantial Action.
Substantial Action is either: A) any two actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds); OR B) any combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, or fold). See also Rules 34 and 38.

Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
Deucekies
Deucekies
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June 25th, 2014 at 3:52:49 PM permalink
Quote: MangoJ

That's what I read from the procedure posted. But why isn't there a shuffle before the turn ? That way the jack could become the turn card as expected in a normal game. If the shuffle is only before the river, the turn is biased towards a non-jack.


Because if you shuffle before the turn, then both the turn AND the river are affected by the mishap. The way I described, only one community card is affected, because the card that now comes on the turn was going to be on the board as the river anyway.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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June 25th, 2014 at 4:05:13 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Because if you shuffle before the turn, then both the turn AND the river are affected by the mishap. The way I described, only one community card is affected, because the card that now comes on the turn was going to be on the board as the river anyway.



In other words, the people who made the rules were more concerned that the same cards come out than providing a fair game.

The real concern here should be that people are making decisions with additional information that they should not have, not that one random event is being replaced with another one.

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