Betting when small blind
A six player game. Small blind is 1 coin, big blind is 2 coins.
Playing means that I bet 2 coins for a chance of winning 12 coins.
I draw suited 5-4
I have an EV of -0.0125. That means I should fold. Correct so far?
But what if I'm small blind? I've already put in 1 coin. It's a sunk cost. I won't get it back if I fold.
If I bet, I only have to bet 1 coin for a chance of winning 12.
Does that make a difference? Has the EV become positive? Has it become a worthwhile bet? Or should I still fold?
Yes, you get a "discount" on the call that other players don't get. It's still not enough to be playing trash hands. Muck it and move on. The small blind is -EV and there is nothing you can do about that. Don't fall for this trap and make it worse than it needs to be.
Do your speculating on the button with position.
Secondly, I know it's a hideous hand. I deliberately picked one that is just slightly negative EV.
Third, I'm interested in the maths. Simply as a question, does small blind change the EV of a hand, ever?
And in general, are there any borderline hands, where it would be worth p;laying as SB, but usually not?
Quote: PeterMorrisThird, I'm interested in the maths. Simply as a question, does small blind change the EV of a hand, ever?
Yes. Also highly important is the number of callers and if you think the Big blind will raise behind you.
Quote: PeterMorrisAnd in general, are there any borderline hands, where it would be worth p;laying as SB, but usually not?
Yes, but which ones is highly dependent on the kind of game (limit vs no limit).
I actually think 4-5 suited is not a bad call there if there are 6 to the flop. The key is being a good enough player to lay down second best hand if you catch it. That is very though for a novice, but over time that flop is well worth a dollar if you have some loose callers in your game who will pay you off if you nail the flop.
At the tight table, you want to play aggressive with this hand. At the loose table, you want to play it very defensively.
Math is important but it is not everything.
You miss the flop fold, top pair on the flop raise, middle pair call a raise. Open-ended straight or 4-flush on the flop raise anything. What... its social poker: not rocket science.
Quote: 98ClubsA totally unscientific approach... the other 4 limpers are taking 5 to 1. It looks loose if everyone calls. You make the call, if its raised you fold.
You miss the flop fold, top pair on the flop raise, middle pair call a raise. Open-ended straight or 4-flush on the flop raise anything. What... its social poker: not rocket science.
I agree with everything you said except raising top pair on the flop.
Quote: anonimussFirst of all it's 11-1 odds. Second of all, no limit hold em poker has very little to do with ev pre flop, it's about implied odds and this is about as good a play you can find. Anybody folding here should never play poker again.
Are you sure we're talking about no limit?
I call either way but I wouldn't necessarily suggest that a beginner who is outclassed call in a NL game. If you're going to go broke every time you make the 2nd best hand I think you have to fold.
Quote: anonimussI'm not so sure it's no limit either. I think it's an easy hand to get away from even for a beginner. Easy for a beginner with poker instincts anyway.
Beginners don't have poker instincts. When they have a flush those chips are going in.
Quote: PeterMorris...I have an EV of -0.0125. That means I should fold. Correct so far?
But what if I'm small blind? I've already put in 1 coin. It's a sunk cost. I won't get it back if I fold.
If I bet, I only have to bet 1 coin for a chance of winning 12. ...
the bottom chips that you have already matched are overlay, not sunk costs.
A bit of a note...if its limit it would be correct to call for implied odds. But if the big blind then raised and everyone else called...even though you still getting 11 to 1 it now may become a fold...because your implied odds just got slashed in half....implied odds are the money you could win post flop and in a limit game it often just 1 bet per round (5 small bets)
You have 4/5 suited in SB with 4 callers. In a $1/$2 game you have $8 plus the BB which is $10. If you want to play a negative EV hand at this point, why not represent something you don't have and fire. I say raise to $14. Now if and when you get callers, you can figure a range of hands for each player. I won't get into comforting / confidence tells at this point, because it appears you do not understand this part of the game yet. You are first to act. If you check, you lose. So fire again. 3/4 pot up to pot + half. And so on. So, you keep firing in hopes you will win by the turn, or you get lucky, or you can bluff the river. Most novice players don't have the stomach to fire on all streets with little to nothing in their hands.
My point being, do not complicate the game. There are plenty of games you can beat by paying attention and playing solid and tight in some cases. Once you get the required experience and understand the complicated plays, it will be like second nature. There are alot of great books on the math and tells of the game. I suggest you google and find them.
Respectfully
Quote: sodawaterI think it's hilarious there is even a debate about calling in the SB with 54s with 4 limpers. It's about as obvious a call as you get.
Just calling with these cards in this position is about as weak of a play you could make. If you play like this you must throw alot of money away.
Quote: tilt247Just calling with these cards in this position is about as weak of a play you could make. If you play like this you must throw alot of money away.
Calling or raising big is the play. Folding is never correct. You either want everyone in for cheap or nobody in and you take it down. Anything else is WRONG!
Quote: anonimussSmall suited connectors play best getting in cheap in multi way pots (with position preferably). Making a big raise to drive everybody out with a hand you can call for half a bet and that plays very well in this spot and can win a lot of money with the right flop is foolish. Any of the early limpers can be slowplaying a big pair begging for somebody in late position to raise so they can reraise. The big blind remains to act as well. Anybody advising anything other than a call is either 80+ years old living on social security or never played much poker beyond freerolls.
Calling is best. Raising big is far back but second best nonetheless. The worst is raising small and being out of position in a juiced pot. Good chance everyone called your small raise too.
Quote: Lemieux66The only reason I can see folding is if there are no callers...and even there you can probably chop with the BB. Two more reasons to call are bad beat possibilities with 45s and you don't want the rep of being a nit unless you plan to do some bluffing.
Suited connectors, and only the big blind in at this point? Why would fold be an option, rather than a 3x BB raise to push the BB out of the hand? If the BB calls, and you miss the flop, it is an easy check and fold, or you could continue the charade, although probably not worth it, other than table image.
Quote: RaleighCrapsSuited connectors, and only the big blind in at this point? Why would fold be an option, rather than a 3x BB raise to push the BB out of the hand? If the BB calls, and you miss the flop, it is an easy check and fold, or you could continue the charade, although probably not worth it, other than table image.
First off, this usually doesn't happen in live cash games. There will be chop discussions. Secondly, it's not worth raising to be out of position to win the bb in a cash game. It's not worth it.
Secondly I think the advice you guys have been giving him is great but unfortunately he doesn't understand any of it because he is new to the game.
Here is what my reply would be......
I would definitely call in the position that you described, not because of it being a +EV play but because, if you have suited cards or connectors or suited connectors you want to be in a pot with the maximum amount of people. This gives you the best opportunity to improve your hand. Also, as you have mentioned you have alreayd antied up "1-coin", why not see a flop?
If you had a pocket pair you would definitely want to see 2, 3 or 4 callers in front of you so that you can re raise the pot with approx. 4 times the pot value in order to push out any callers that was limping (meaning betting the minimum to see the flop and get lucky). You are not in good position post flop but you want to play against as few players as possible.
Hope I explained it so that you can udnerstand?
Enjoy the game bud!
Quote: TomspurFirst off my opinion about the game used in the hypothesis by the OP. "1-coin small blind and 2-coins big blind"......imo he could only be talking about either a $1/$2 or $5/$10 NL game, nothing else. Limit games are (usually) $2/$4 or $4/$8 games......you can't place down those bets with 1 or 2 coins.
Secondly I think the advice you guys have been giving him is great but unfortunately he doesn't understand any of it because he is new to the game.
Here is what my reply would be......
I would definitely call in the position that you described, not because of it being a +EV play but because, if you have suited cards or connectors or suited connectors you want to be in a pot with the maximum amount of people. This gives you the best opportunity to improve your hand. Also, as you have mentioned you have alreayd antied up "1-coin", why not see a flop?
If you had a pocket pair you would definitely want to see 2, 3 or 4 callers in front of you so that you can re raise the pot with approx. 4 times the pot value in order to push out any callers that was limping (meaning betting the minimum to see the flop and get lucky). You are not in good position post flop but you want to play against as few players as possible.
Hope I explained it so that you can udnerstand?
Enjoy the game bud!
Good advice, but I will add you want to call with the small PP and raise with your big PP. Sounds lewd lol
Quote: paisielloBecause it is a -ve expected value and in the long run it will cost you money. I assume by the same logic that you would also recommend to call from the BB a minimum raise?
What you can do is every time you have a marginal hand to call with in the SB or BB, just make a note of it. At the end of the session add up all the times and see how much money you have spent. You'll find that it is quite a lot of money and very unlikely will have won any big hands with it.
Best advice which I think most poker pros will tell you is only play this type of hand in late position and raise it pre-flop to represent a big hand. This should be a rare move and only then if you have a good table image.
A min raise would cost you "2-coins" and not the "1-coin" it would cost you to flat call the ante.
Also, this guy has 4 callers behind him with a decent starting hand for this situation, unless everyone was dealt pocket pairs and for some reason just decided to limp.......
I think you are over thinking this particular situation. If you fold in this instance, I think you are either the biggest nit on the planet or you don't quite udnerstand NL hold em.
Just my opinion of course, you may be johhny Chan for all I know :)
Quote: paisielloI'm just interested in maximizing my profit. You are more interested in gambling in which case you should stick to a game like roulette.
Yes because you can absolutely equate NL hold em to Roulette.....thanks for that astonishing admonition.
Quote: paisielloWell you are apparently suggesting it since your poor recommendation is to always call the SB with weak hands.
how is a suited connector in that spot a weak hand?
Quote: paisielloI believe it was stated originally that it had a -ve EV. I can only suggest that you keep track every time you play it and add up your losses from this play at the end of your sessions.
When I'm able to play again I will do so but as DJ mentioned it is very seriously going to depend on the players at your table. tight-aggressive, loose-aggressive, tight-tight and so on and so forth....
I respect your opinion, thanks for the discussion!
Unless you get drawn out..... which happens to me a lot.
Quote: djatcsuited connectors can flop 2 pair, pair+straight draw, pair+flush draw, or trips or better and if you feel a fish will get their money in with TPTK then the implied odds would be worth the extra blind to check preflop. To be honest most donks on 1/2NL will get it in if they hit their ace/king/face card. Figure out the equity in whatever you have that is better than top pair and get it in if you are ahead.
Unless you get drawn out..... which happens to me a lot.
Bet bigger :)
Quote: paisielloFolding in this spot is right. You're assuming that when you hit a 20:1 long shot that everyone will voluntarily go along with your brilliant plan and pay you off. Just doesn't happen in real life most of the time. You're opponents are just as equally likely to get a big hand and you are easy to get counterfeited.
More importantly, you generally want to build up an image as a nit so that when you do have an opportunity to bluff or semi-bluff you can take down more hands without having any callers. If your opponents see you folding a lot and only playing premium hands this helps build up a good image to set them up with later.
There's a balance. You can make SOME money if you hit your hand here. Not stack someone all the time but you can get some calls.
Quote: paisielloNot enough to justify the call every time. Like I said, just keep a personal log of how many hands you played this way and figure out how much it cost you at the end of your sessions.
You will lose a dollar a lot of the time. But you will also win your share of pots. The real reason to call is there are all those limpers. More money in the pot, more people who can make mistakes, etc
Quote: paisielloAnd more people who can beat you, too. In the long run your wins will not offset the costs.
What exactly can you flop here that you can't get away from that isn't considered a good hand? Two pair is good. Low straight is good. You have to be cautious hitting trips because of bad kicker but you can get away if you're smart.
Quote: paisielloI already outlined scenarios previously here:
Calling SB in NL
The main reason not to play this hand is that you are out of position and easily exploitable.
This logic overlooks exactly whom you'll be facing. Old man nit? You can fold bottom two. Hot shot young guy raising and bluffing a lot? You can call. You need reads on people in poker not just math. Examine the situation.
Quote: Tomspurhow is a suited connector in that spot a weak hand?
Because you are gambling at this point with 2 weak cards and most likely are looking at a trap. You limp in, you show weakness. Now if you don't get lucky, you have to pretend to have a big hand or get out of the way. if you choose to just give up, you look weak and have given away some important information. Poker is war, not about making friends. Poker is also about making money. Limping in is the weakest play. Are you going to limp in with suited connectors in this spot every time? I hope not. Are you going to try and take it with suited connectors and missing in this spot every time, I hope not. You have to mix your play up. By the sounds of it, there appears to be alot of really tight players posting. Tight / aggressive play works, but you have to adjust to the table and try to keep everyone guessing. No offense intended, but I have learned this lesson amongst many others in my poker playing journey. And by no means am I saying I'm a pro.
Quote: paisielloI'm almost never calling in this spot. I will either raise or fold.
That being said, sometimes (but not too often) I will call with some hands to try and catch those people who like to limp in with hands like suited connectors. For example, sometimes I will call with any pocket pair, suited ace, or two cards that will give me broadway draws. I might even slow play a big premium hand to catch loose players with (but rarely do this).
And at the end of the day, very rarely, I might actually play suited connectors or some other similar garbage. I think the golden rule in poker is not to be predictable. Get your opponents to make bad plays because they think you are strong when you are weak and you are weak when you are strong.
EXACTLY!!
Quote: tilt247Because you are gambling at this point with 2 weak cards and most likely are looking at a trap. You limp in, you show weakness. Now if you don't get lucky, you have to pretend to have a big hand or get out of the way. if you choose to just give up, you look weak and have given away some important information.
What information are you giving up if you limp in (after 3 or 4 other limpers) and then check-fold the flop? That you don't try to bluff every single hand? Hopefully your opponents already know that.
IMO you are giving up a lot more information if you raise in this spot.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhat information are you giving up if you limp in (after 3 or 4 other limpers) and then check-fold the flop?
That you like to limp in with garbage hands maybe?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIMO you are giving up a lot more information if you raise in this spot.
Not necessarily but more important you are getting more information if anybody calls you or three bets it.
Quote: Lemieux66A trap huh? Can't fold your bottom pair no kicker huh? If someone is limping aces here, they aren't trapping you they are trapping themselves.
I'll try and remember that when I take all your chips...
