kp
kp
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:54:55 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

A dealer's error doesn't make it yours



That's fair --- as long as the house never collects on a payer error, either.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 8:03:22 AM permalink
Quote: PerpetualNewbie

Ya know, there was a thread a while back about someone's dad not recognizing whether or not he won an Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em hand. And, after some back and forth, the conclusion was that we're all responsible for our own hands.

I maintain that this holds true for dealers, too. It's their responsibility to find their own straights and flushes. It's their responsibility to keep the window (the bottom-most card in his hand) hidden.



True - it is, but sometimes they fail. As do Bank tellers, 7-11 clerks, you name it.
Question is, If I see something and can do something, - am I responsible? There's ALWAYS a path of least resistance.

Now, for an ethical experiment here on this thread: RE: we're respondible for our own hands, etc. We are also responsable for only our own safety, and our own pocketbooks (or table trays, think of it as such) - to extend it much further out?

An off-duty cop hears of a 7-11 robbery some 10 miles away on the news, says "that's sad, hope they catch the guy..."
Now, that off-duty cop goes to his local 7-11 or Speedy Mart, looks in through the window, and sees a robbery in progress.
Does he call it in - or does he say, "That clerk is responsible for his own cash register ("chip tray"). Not my problem. Yeah - I SEE IT. But I'm off duty...why cause problems?"
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Nareed
Nareed
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July 26th, 2011 at 8:06:02 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

For me, If I'm playing and I see the hole card, and have an advantage, I'll either fold a winning hand or play out a losing hand one time, AND I'll point it out and request it be cleaned up. I do NOT want that money, creeps me out - though 99% of the people will take it with a closed smile. The old "Dealer error or bank error makes it mine, hope they don't notice, hope I get away with it..."



No hope at all. Odds are the player will be able to win the hand, or fold a losing hand.

I wouldn't point it out, even if it meant I had a losing hand (say I've a king high and the dealer flashed an ace), because future flashing of cards might benefit me. If I were to point it out, I'd aks the hands be voided and the round be re-dealt. That would be fair. But no way I'd fold a winning hand or play a losing hand, not knowingly.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 8:08:48 AM permalink
Quote: kp

That's fair --- as long as the house never collects on a payer error, either.


That's just as fair and as equal, too. But players generally mention errors only in a one way direction. How often do you see:
1. A player arguing that he was shorted, versus...
2. A player returning an overpayment that he could get away with...
I've seen floormen tell dealers to pay a player when they were shorted just as often as vice-versa. A mistake is a mistake, It ain't our money, we just work there.

Interesting: everything said on this thread backs up what I've seen in years of dealing.
People are people, are usually not saints, and take the path of least resistance.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Nareed
Nareed
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July 26th, 2011 at 8:29:48 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

True - it is, but sometimes they fail. As do Bank tellers, 7-11 clerks, you name it.
Question is, If I see something and can do something, - am I responsible? There's ALWAYS a path of least resistance.



There's a difference. In retail and bank transactions, no side usually has an advantage over the toher, casinos always do.

I'll admit that most people would return a penny to a sales clerk, but not a $100 given in error by a bank. That's because banks tend to act high-handed when dealing with their customers. That said, one time a cashier at EPCOT gave change for $50 when I paid with a $20. I honestly didn't notice, because I wasn't paying attention at all. She did, though, and corrected her error. Had she not done so, I would never have known and would have walked out with a free purchase and extra money in my wallet.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
kp
kp
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July 26th, 2011 at 8:57:25 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I've seen floormen tell dealers to pay a player when they were shorted just as often as vice-versa. A mistake is a mistake, It ain't our money, we just work there.



How often have you seen a floorman tell a player they missed a straight/flush and to reset the hand, and then pay them if they win?

When I'm playing a game of skill against someone else, I will not help them win, as I think that would be unfair to me. I also will not do anything unfair to try and make them lose. It's a contest and both sides should play to the best of their ability.

This is far different than trying to rob a 7-11.

BTW, I also believe that the casino does their best to distract and impair the player in order to give the casino an unfair advantage.
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
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July 26th, 2011 at 9:02:14 AM permalink
I operate in a way that gives me the best advantage in every situation I encounter - in the casino, at a 7-11, at work, etc.. If that makes me.. "not a saint," then I'm willing to deal with that. Thankfully, I don't have the burden of an afterlife hanging over my head.

Every game will have dealer errors. It's a cost of doing business. If a particular dealer is an excessive cost to the business, then the business should protect itself and remove that dealer (at least from that game until he can be retrained properly)

Quote: Paigowdan


Now, for an ethical experiment here on this thread: RE: we're respondible for our own hands, etc. We are also responsable for only our own safety, and our own pocketbooks (or table trays, think of it as such) - to extend it much further out?



While your robbery analogy may work specifically for you (when you're playing, you're still an off-duty worker/operator of sorts), it's more appropriate to place the rest of us as a customer in the store that's being robbed. Is it our duty to intervene? Sure, a Good Samaritan is appreciated. But, such a person goes out of his way and accepts risk to himself and everyone around him for no personal gain.

I'll say this much. I know what I do is not in the black and white spirit of the game and I know I'm taking advantage of other people being human and making mistakes and I know it's "wrong." And I'm OK with that. I expect no sympathy or remorse from the casino if a player sets his hand wrong. So, while we may have different values or ethics, I consider mine fairly applied.
Nareed
Nareed
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July 26th, 2011 at 9:48:21 AM permalink
Quote: PerpetualNewbie

While your robbery analogy may work specifically for you (when you're playing, you're still an off-duty worker/operator of sorts), it's more appropriate to place the rest of us as a customer in the store that's being robbed. Is it our duty to intervene? Sure, a Good Samaritan is appreciated. But, such a person goes out of his way and accepts risk to himself and everyone around him for no personal gain.



Good analogy.

Most private citizens are not trained to fight off an armed robber, and most times would amke matters worse by even trying to. So, unless you know how to confront an armed and hostile subject with a reasonabel probability of coming out of it alive, your civic duty is to try to get help from the police. If I were in a store being robbed, I'd try to hide and would call 911. If I had a gun on me, I might try something else. But I wouldn't go unarmed against an armed robber; that's suicidal.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
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July 26th, 2011 at 11:29:24 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed



Good analogy.

Most private citizens are not trained to fight off an armed robber, and most times would amke matters worse by even trying to. So, unless you know how to confront an armed and hostile subject with a reasonabel probability of coming out of it alive, your civic duty is to try to get help from the police. If I were in a store being robbed, I'd try to hide and would call 911. If I had a gun on me, I might try something else. But I wouldn't go unarmed against an armed robber; that's suicidal.



Psst. This line of argument doesn't help you (or any of us on this side of the fence) :)

Following your logic backwards, you'd be claiming to not know how to correct an errant dealer. By definition, if you know enough to know he made a mistake, you know how to fix it. :)
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 11:41:44 AM permalink
Quote: kp

How often have you seen a floorman tell a player they missed a straight/flush and to reset the hand, and then pay them if they win?


A lot, - and I am damn proud of them. I would give a floorman some major shit if I ever see the house cheat a player - I'd call Gaming control myself as a dealer!
And no, casino pit crews don't own the money that's won or lost - they just try to run the games cleanly and correctly as referees and with disinterest, in spite of accusations of interest.

And always, when asked, I show them (Pai Gow Players) the best way to play out a hand, as a Pai Gow game designer and a serious pai gow player - even better than the "standard" house way, which is often weak. I too was advised about "coaching" players as per providing "best play" at times, as the recommended play is to use the SAME house way - player versus house - when asked. I obeyed, and sometimes cringe as to how hands are set at local joints here in Las Vegas. Go to a California Card Room, and you'll see some expert play.

Quote: kp

When I'm playing a game of skill against someone else, I will not help them win, as I think that would be unfair to me. I also will not do anything unfair to try and make them lose. It's a contest and both sides should play to the best of their ability.
This is far different than trying to rob a 7-11.


Never said that. I said seeing and witnessing a wrong doing that you know better on - and remaining totally silent was the problem - whether for the house or for the player. I never said committing a crime or malfeasance - I said remaining silent in order to LET IT Happen in YOUR (or your "side's") favor, and crying murder if a mistake was the other way.

Quote: kp

BTW, I also believe that the casino does their best to distract and impair the player in order to give the casino an unfair advantage.


Total crock, absolute crock. Casino dealers and floormen have no interest or cut of the casino owner's profit, and also have less love for their casino management than they do their players, for the most part, aside from a handful of really rude and cheating dice players, who we keep in line.

Referees care about neither side. We do notice where the noise is coming from as we try to provide (really do indeed) a fair gaming experience.
People get uptight with their money on the line, or have a losing streak, and cry foul on a loss.
Casino workers are enamored by neither their management or their players equally, and have no interest in casino income below the level of the casino owner.
Again, we are all just referees trying to operate the games - and catching flak from all sides.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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